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Greek primacy "proofs"
#1
I read a lot about Greek primacy "proofs" and paid attention to the following:
"...there is no doubt Jesus spoke Aramaic".
"The term applies to Greek-speaking Jews, in whose synagogues Greek was spoken, and where undoubtedly the Septuagint Scriptures were commonly used."
"Such Hellenistai may have spoken very little, if any, Hebrew or Aramaic.".
"Jerusalem Jews or Jewish Christians who habitually spoke only Greek (and for that reason were more affected by Hellenistic culture), ".
"Jewish Christians who also spoke a Semitic language, probably Aramaic, which they normally used".
"What about Jesus Christ, and the apostles? Did they, too, commonly speak Greek as a "second language"?".

"The answer is almost certainly yes. "
"In what language did Jesus and Pilate converse? There is no mention of an interpreter.".
"Since there is little likelihood that Pilate, a Roman, would have been able to speak either Aramaic or Hebrew, ".
"Similarly, when Jesus conversed with the Roman centurion, a commander of a troop of Roman soldiers, the centurion most likely did not speak Aramaic or Hebrew. It is most likely that Jesus conversed with him in Greek".
"A royal official of Rome, in the service of Herod Antipas, a Gentile, would most likely spoken with Jesus in Greek.".
"The Gospel of Mark identifies this woman as Hellenes, meaning a "Greek" (Mark 7:26). The probability is, therefore, that Jesus spoke to her in Greek.".
"a place of commerce and international trade, where Greek would have been the normal language of business.".
"Moreover, these specific instances in which Jesus apparently spoke Greek are consistent with his Galilean background. In Matthew 4;15, this area is referred to as 'Galilee of the Gentiles.Growing up and living in this area, Jesus would have had to speak some Greek'".
"Did Jesus also, therefore, teach in Greek? Were many of His parables and saying actually uttered in the Greek language?

If the answer is yes, as A. W. Argyle says, "We may have direct access to the original utterances of our Lord and not only to a translation of them."".
"Thus unless a translator was present (though none is ever mentioned), their conversations probably took place in the Greek language. ".
"Probably Jesus spoke Greek during the following occasions: the visit to Tyre, Sidon and the Decapolis (Mark 7:31ff)".
"The fact that Jesus Christ and the disciples all knew and spoke Greek, as a "third language," in addition to Aramaic and Hebrew, is also indicated and supported by the fact that all the gospels and epistles of the New Testament are written and preserved in the Greek language.".
"Stop and think! It is very significant that no early Christian documents are extant in Aramaic! ALL the earliest New Testament documents and fragments are in Greek! ".
"All we have are GREEK manuscripts, and as far back as we go, GREEK is the language of the New Testament! Strange, isn't it, that not one manuscript in Aramaic or Hebrew predates the Greek?".
"Says William Tuohy of the Los Angeles Times, "Parts of the New Testament may have been written by men who actually knew Christ, rather than authors recounting a 2nd-Century version of an oral tradition."".
"Furthermore, it is interesting to note that some of the disciples of Christ had Greek names -- Andrew, Philip, Simon".
"It is possible that many Greek terms preserved in the New Testament may be there because they were originally uttered in Greek.".
"A word often used by Jesus, "hypocrite," in describing the Pharisees and Sadducees, comes from the Greek word hypokrites, a compound word with the Greek preposition hypo for "under" and krites, meaning "judgment."".

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#2
Ivan I love your sense of humor.

+Shamasha
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#3
Shlama Akhi Ivan:
You can't be a Greek Primacist and an Aramaic Primacist at the same time.

Quote:Your answer to Zardak:
I agree that SATANA might be a borrowed word from Aramaic.
If Paul spoke to Jews in Jerusalem in Jewish, it means that the nation spoke
in Jewish, not in Greek.
The centurion was surprised that a Jew Paul in Jerusalem speaks Greek.
You are welcome to express your Greek primacist opinions, we are here to help you.I just wonder, if you so hard stand for Greek NT then which of the Greek NTs you prefer since I know all of them are heavy corruptions but Peshitta (Eastern text, not Western) manuscripts all match.

Ivan.

Ivan, this is a portion of your post under Greek Primacy Proofs, yet you rail against Jews in Greek-speaking lands. In the synagogue, since shortly after the Great Synagogue under Ezra the Scribe (read Nehemiah and Ezra and please don't say they are a corrupted version of the Jewish Bible that you refer to as "the Old Testament". You will find Hebrew and Aramaic. It's the same for the Book of Daniel. It's written in Hebrew and Aramic. These Books the inspired words written while Zekhariah, Malakhi, and Haggai lived and prophesied of the coming Mashiakh set in place the functual use of Hebrew and Aramaic, namely, the Torah reading and the Haftara (Aramaic Targums to give the sense). Through the Greek conquest of Jerusalem, which ended with the reestablishment of the Second Hebrew National Commonwealth by Judah Macabees and his family (Levites) the Jews perfected the Order of Service in the Synagogue in spoken Aramaic and written Hebrew and Aramaic. The Greeks didn't have a functional language till the 7th Century B.C., while Moses wrote in the Pheonician Alef Bet. Moses wrote about a traveling Aramaian (Abram) whom YHVH Elohim renamed Abraham. During this time Greek had no written history since they still had no Alpha Beta, just the disfunctional cryptic lemon called Linear B. Greek was steeped in paganism and continued through the 7th century B.C. when Aramaic stood all this time as the lingua franca of the east, centred in Beyt Naharain (Mesopotamia).
Greek is not a good language by which to write the New Testament. Do you actually believe that the Jews were so bent out of shape by Antiochus Epiphanius that they forgot Hebrew and Aramaic, spoken also by their brethren in Adiabene, Nineveh and Babylon? No, the Jews perfected the Scribal tradition taught to them by their fathers from time immemorial by written records and the oral tradition (in Hebrew and Aramaic of course). The Siddur is written in Hebrew and Aramaic as well as any local language as translation. So, my Siddur is written in Hebrew, Aramaic and English. I can read the prayers, which I learned from my short time in the Synagogue, not from childhood but actually after I was saved. I was 19 when I was saved and I was 21 when I was first introduced to Messianic Judaism (Hebrew Christianity. Yes I have Jewish blood from my father, but my mother was a Gentile. May Alaha rest their souls.

Quote:I read a lot about Greek primacy "proofs" and paid attention to the following:
"...there is no doubt Jesus spoke Aramaic".
"The term applies to Greek-speaking Jews, in whose synagogues Greek was spoken, and where undoubtedly the Septuagint Scriptures were commonly used."
"Such Hellenistai may have spoken very little, if any, Hebrew or Aramaic.".
"Jerusalem Jews or Jewish Christians who habitually spoke only Greek (and for that reason were more affected by Hellenistic culture), ".
"Jewish Christians who also spoke a Semitic language, probably Aramaic, which they normally used".
"What about Jesus Christ, and the apostles? Did they, too, commonly speak Greek as a "second language"?".

"The answer is almost certainly yes. "
"In what language did Jesus and Pilate converse? There is no mention of an interpreter.".
"Since there is little likelihood that Pilate, a Roman, would have been able to speak either Aramaic or Hebrew, ".
"Similarly, when Jesus conversed with the Roman centurion, a commander of a troop of Roman soldiers, the centurion most likely did not speak Aramaic or Hebrew. It is most likely that Jesus conversed with him in Greek".
"A royal official of Rome, in the service of Herod Antipas, a Gentile, would most likely spoken with Jesus in Greek.".
"The Gospel of Mark identifies this woman as Hellenes, meaning a "Greek" (Mark 7:26). The probability is, therefore, that Jesus spoke to her in Greek.".
"a place of commerce and international trade, where Greek would have been the normal language of business.".
"Moreover, these specific instances in which Jesus apparently spoke Greek are consistent with his Galilean background. In Matthew 4;15, this area is referred to as 'Galilee of the Gentiles.Growing up and living in this area, Jesus would have had to speak some Greek'".
"Did Jesus also, therefore, teach in Greek? Were many of His parables and saying actually uttered in the Greek language?

That to say this, Akhi Ivan. You have to choose. You seem to be sitting on the fence and in that place you have nowhere to go, but to sit on your pointed picket fence. Moreover you should read some of the former posts and posts that are under other topics to get a clear picture of Aramaic Primacy before you jump into every hot topic. Some of us have been around for many years. We may not be perfect here at <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.peshitta.org">www.peshitta.org</a><!-- w --> but we do know what we are talking about. I love your posts for their thoughtful content, but I admit that I am speaking tongue in cheek. You have no idea what kind of serious stuff Aramaic Primacy is. A little knowledge is dangerous, my friend.
If for any reason you or anyone else finds my present post unfit, inaccurate or offensive, I will most certainly delete it. I have made a copy that I can just keep to myself if it is not appropriate to post it here. I abide by the same rules as everyone else here. Being a Forum Modulator doesn't give me any special rights. I love the LORD and I want to be a good example to the 896 other members at <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.peshitta.org">www.peshitta.org</a><!-- w -->

Shlama,
Stephen Silver
Dukhrana Biblical Research
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">http://www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- m -->
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#4
Shlama Akhan Stephen. I may be mistaken, but I think Ivan is just listing the more entertaining quotes from Zardak. The only part from Ivan himself seems to be the "no comment" comment. <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink -->

Shamasha
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#5
Quote:The only part from Ivan himself seems to be the "no comment" comment.
Exactly.
As much as I remember I took the quotations from
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ntgreek.org/answers/nt_written_in_greek.htm">http://www.ntgreek.org/answers/nt_written_in_greek.htm</a><!-- m -->
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#6
Akhi Stephen,

You are a keen person and see things through. I am Aramaic primacist almost 100% and
I teach Aramaic my children too. My son 5 yr. old knows all Aramaic alphabet, the other son
prays "our father" in Aramaic just like me. For the last 2 months I spend reading your
dukhrana.com almost 3 hours a day because I decided to be perfect in Aramaic and
mastered it about 95%, not bad I think. On the other side I know Greek about 95% too.

I just wonder why you shifted "u" to "o" unlike in Mingana 148 and in Greek text it says
"Talitha kumi", not a "komi" or "rokha" etc.

Sure I am not a match for you but it is a pleasure for me to read the forum because I do love Peshitta.
I am not a theologian or history guy, I am linguist. Reading both Greek and Aramaic texts, I see Aramaic text
has many Greek loan words likewise Greek text has Aramaic words. So, these 2 languages were in active use
and are important both. Greek manuscripts help us develop Aramaic primacy.

For me, only textual research matters, the other things are just guessing just like I posted the citations above.

On the other side, akhi, let me disagree with you about the Masoretic Tanach. You can explore yourself on the Internet etc. based on facts that it is a corruption. It is clear visible that the goal is to discredit Christianity, destroy faith in the Mshikha and to show to the world that not Eesho Mshikha is to rule the world but the Jews who fight against the Mshikha. And about Greek primacist Zardak, I believe he is very precious to our forum with his facts and not with theories and guessings etc. There is a good proverb "Our critics are our friends because they see our back which is invisible for us." He helps us to perfect the Aramaic primacy too.

Ivan.
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#7
Shlama Akhi Ivan and Akhi Paul:
I stand corrected. I should have read a little deeper. Please forgive me for being rash with you, Ivan. Shamasha Paul, you know how to keep me in line and I willingly receive correction from you and Akhi Ivan. Also, I'm not very good at pronunciations or vowel recognition as both of you are. So, sometimes I may mispronounce the vowels but the actual letters are as good as I can do. There is always room for my improvements in Hebrew and Aramaic grammar.
As for my endorsement of the Massoretic text we will have to agree to disagree. The TaNaK was not originally written in Aramaic, but Hebrew, with a few places where Aramaic was used. The Ambrosianus Codex (Peshitta A"NK)is an excellent translation of the ancient Hebrew text that the scribe used for his translation. I downloaded the entire text some years ago when I became aware that it was at Realtech and easily accessable. The quotes in the Peshitta New Testament are virtually verbatim to the Ambrosianus Codex, at least the ones that I have seen. We need the Hebrew TaNaK and for now I am willing to scrutinize any apparent errors rather than call it purposely corrupted by the Massorites. Again, this is my heart-felt opinion and we will have to agree to disagree.

Shlama,
Stephen
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#8
I hope that the Peshitta A"NK can be up like the NT is for research one day...It is greatly needed. I talked to Lars one time recenlty and he said it was his hope as well, and was trying to attain a text from the Church of the East. David Baucsher is working through the Ambrosianus and has Psalms, Proverbs, and Ecclesiasties (spelling) published...and Andrew is about 5-6 years away he says from publishing his, which looks to be another critical text, culled from various sources.

I would like to see the Ambrosianus and the Church of the East's text of the OT up on Dukhrana, like you have for the 1905 and Khabouris...what a blessing that would be.

Also, Stephen...do you have a file that can be downloaded, which has the text of the Khabouris only...like the text as it appears in the Peshitta tool, in that font you use there....that I could then print out...so I can physically mark it, as I don't always have time with the Computer?

Shlama,
Chuck
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#9
Does anybody have any information when and where Ambrosianus OT was written?
It is an excellent tool to study Aramaic written in nice estrangelo text.
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#10
One of the most hillarious "proofs" for a greek original of John is the alleged "wordplay" when Jesus said one must be born again.

If one makes no assumptions about whether it was written in greek or aramaic, one reads the aramaic and see that Jesus simply syas one must be born again. Nicodemus then answers Jesus in a way that only makes sense if the word is "again".

Even in greek there is absolutely no indication or reason to think Jesus meant anything but "again".

Yet because the word in greek can also mean above, somehow, by some strange logic, greek primacists insist that Jesus must therefore have been making a wordplay.
However even Nicodemus in his reply shows no knowledge of any wordplay, and there is no other reason either to think Jesus intended a wordplay.
yet this is one of the powerful proofs for a greek original pushed by Bart Ehrman and others.
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#11
judge Wrote:One of the most hillarious "proofs" for a greek original of John is the alleged "wordplay" when Jesus said one must be born again.

If one makes no assumptions about whether it was written in greek or aramaic, one reads the aramaic and see that Jesus simply syas one must be born again. Nicodemus then answers Jesus in a way that only makes sense if the word is "again".

Even in greek there is absolutely no indication or reason to think Jesus meant anything but "again".

Yet because the word in greek can also mean above, somehow, by some strange logic, greek primacists insist that Jesus must therefore have been making a wordplay.
However even Nicodemus in his reply shows no knowledge of any wordplay, and there is no other reason either to think Jesus intended a wordplay.
yet this is one of the powerful proofs for a greek original pushed by Bart Ehrman and others.

Shlama Akhi Michael. I think the example you mention is the epitome of the problem of Greek primacy. It showcases how certain dogmatic errors have crept in over the centuries. As we have strayed further away from the more simple Semitic meaning, and have come to rely on shades of meaning from a translated language, this has become more apparent.
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#12
Paul Younan wrote:
Quote:Shlama Akhi Michael. I think the example you mention is the epitome of the problem of Greek primacy. It showcases how certain dogmatic errors have crept in over the centuries. As we have strayed further away from the more simple Semitic meaning, and have come to rely on shades of meaning from a translated language, this has become more apparent.

The golden words said in the right time. A bunch of western theologies are based on these shades of meanings.
Therefore primacy is the primary topic and very important in our days Christianity.
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#13
I'm not sure if this is the place to ask my question...but it does concern the Greek Septuagint. While I am mostly convinced that the early New Testament writings were composed in Aramaic or possibly Hebrew...why does everybody seem to only quote from the Septuagint when making connections with Tanach. Clearly they had Hebrew scrolls available..yet the Septuagint seems to surface all the time (eg. James/Yacob in Acts 15) Or was the Septuagint considered an exact (as opposed to paraphrased) translation of the Hebrew. In the Peshitta what is used for Tanach quotes...the original Hebrew/Aramaic wordings or the later Greek Septuagint translated backwards. Hope this question makes some sense. Thanks
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#14
The fact that they listed Simon as a Greek name is a sign of utter stupidity.
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