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Where is Roth?
#1
Hello Chaverim!

I wonder why Andrew G. Roth not participating in this forum. For a cause he is involved in another project?
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#2
Hopefully he is busy with getting a new translation of the OT ready. I know that Dave Bauscher is working on one and has some books already done, but the more and the more accurate the better.
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#3
Because we have too small amounts of translated Old Testaments?
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#4
Just one I know of... Lamsa's

If you know of another, please let me know where to get a copy.
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#5
As much as i know almost all English translations are from
Masoretic text: KJV, NSV etc.etc.
I checked before and saw that Aramaic OT is also translation from Masoretic text.
Better if somebody would translate from DSS but they are kept from public eye purposely for almost 70 years now.
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#6
Andrew is busy with his own ministry at One Faith One People and spends all of his time posting there. His translation of Tanach though (called MATARA) is going to be from the Masoretic text. While he is bringing in other ancient witnesses such as the Peshitta and Targums, they are going to be supplementary to the main text (MATARA stands for Masoretic Targumic Amplified edition Tanach). The last I heard a few months ago, he was saying that MATARA was 5-6 years away from being done.
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#7
The Ancient Aramaic Peshitta OT was translated from the ancient Hebrew text, and I think, before the Masoretic scribes changed some things around. The Ambrosianus Codex which is the oldest extant Aramaic Peshitta OT text is being translated by David Bauscher, and will be seen to show the more original form of the Hebrew text, that existed prior to the Masorites changed it in a number of places. I would think/hope that Andrew will take the Ambrosianus text readings into consideration as well.

Shlama,
Chuck
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#8
Luc Lefebvre wrote
Quote:Andrew is busy with his own ministry at One Faith One People and spends all of his time posting there. His translation of Tanach though (called MATARA) is going to be from the Masoretic text. While he is bringing in other ancient witnesses such as the Peshitta and Targums, they are going to be supplementary to the main text (MATARA stands for Masoretic Targumic Amplified edition Tanach). The last I heard a few months ago, he was saying that MATARA was 5-6 years away from being done.
And as a result it will be a new combination product, new form of corruption.
Personally, if I would translate something I would be dedicated to a certain one manuscript.
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#9
IPOstapyuk Wrote:Luc Lefebvre wrote
Quote:Andrew is busy with his own ministry at One Faith One People and spends all of his time posting there. His translation of Tanach though (called MATARA) is going to be from the Masoretic text. While he is bringing in other ancient witnesses such as the Peshitta and Targums, they are going to be supplementary to the main text (MATARA stands for Masoretic Targumic Amplified edition Tanach). The last I heard a few months ago, he was saying that MATARA was 5-6 years away from being done.

And as a result it will be a new combination product, new form of corruption.
Personally, if I would translate something I would be dedicated to a certain one manuscript.

Personally I do not mind a critical text if the variant reading are attested to by the majority of the Ancient texts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Aramaic Tanak, the Samaritan Tanak, The Latin Vulgate, as well as the Septuagint, along with Targum being considered - oh and I guess if the Masoretic text agree with the majority it could be considered too.

But I also like having these other texts translated into English so that I can double check the critical text to make sure the majority of the others have the variant readings.
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#10
IPOstapyuk Wrote:As much as i know almost all English translations are from
Masoretic text: KJV, NSV etc.etc.
I checked before and saw that Aramaic OT is also translation from Masoretic text.
Better if somebody would translate from DSS but they are kept from public eye purposely for almost 70 years now.

No the Peshitta Tanakh predates the Masoretic text, it was translated from a much older Hebrew text.
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#11
I think MATARA might be striclty from one text with only the other varient readings available (perhaps similar to all the footnotes you'd find in the DSS Bible). I know Andrew's vision is to bring all the ancient witnesses together under one cover. But, we'll see what happens with the project.
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#12
:

What he needs to do, is just pick a Manuscript, translate that, then make his notes for the variants found in the other versions. He needs to stop trying to make another Bible read the way he likes it to read. I see this more and more with his AENT...he takes a patch here, takes a patch there, weaves it together in the way he likes it to read and puts some of his own stitches and embrodery to make it pretty...and what you come up with is The New Testament in Roth's image...and which looks nothing like any New Testament Manuscript, in any language. It's like it was just newly written by Roth. Not good.

Shlama,
Chuck
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#13
Thirdwoe Wrote::

What he needs to do, is just pick a Manuscript, translate that, then make his notes for the variants found in the other versions. He needs to stop trying to make another Bible read the way he likes it to read. I see this more and more with his AENT...he takes a patch here, takes a patch there, weaves it together in the way he likes it to read and puts some of his own stitches and embrodery to make it pretty...and what you come up with is The New Testament in Roth's image...and which looks nothing like any New Testament Manuscript, in any language. It's like it was just newly written by Roth. Not good.

Shlama,
Chuck
You think so? What do you think are some examples? Reason I ask is because there are so few variants within the manuscript records for the Aramaic. What I've noticed mostly is just a different choice of translation for the actual Aramaic term (subtract the vowel points - i.e. eunuch vs Believer/faithful one) Also, I know Andrew and Baruch are always open to feedback and looking at translation suggestions for improving the AENT in subsequent editions. Maybe we could start a thread where we begin to dissect some passages? I've been thinking of getting the latest edition (it's going to have a substantial amount of updates, some possibly even from feedback I have given) and then working on my language skills by going in and breaking down a lot of different passages. It is my hope then to give a larger compilation of feedback (textual as well as theological) that can improve the AENT for future generations if it's going to keep getting more popular, particularly for the Hebrew Roots movement (this hits home with me as I have people come into my congregation who use these sorts of translations and carry certain attitudes and such because of it that makes ministry and fulfilling the congregational vision a little more difficult [as well as being a hindrance to their own spiritual growth]). And then it just helps us who are language and textual criticism nerds because we love doing this stuff anyway <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->
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#14
:

Luc,

I know it was pretty harsh, but sadly true. All you need to do is take his edited text, then translate/transliterate it back into Aramaic...and then go try to find a Manuscript that reads the same way. I can't use it. It was created for a certain group who want the Bible to read a certain way, when it dosen't. That is a false image.

What he should have done is just stuck with what is found in the Eastern Aramaic Scriptures, and not added his ideas to them.

You asked for some examples...well, here are some for his version of the Book of Revelation.

Roth has this reading for Revelation 1:10, "I was in the Spirit on the day of our Master YHWH..."

In Rev 11:4, Roth changes the Aramaic reading "Mara" =Master, into "Marya" =Master-Yah where he has "...which stand before Master YHWH of the earth." But should be "...which stand before The Master of the whole earth." As Bauscher and Magiera have it, and which the text actually states.

No note for Rev 11:4 in the edition I have...but maybe he has fixed it by now?

In Rev 14:10, Roth has "...the wine of the wrath of Elohim..." But the text actually reads "...the wine of the wrath of Marya (Master Yah)..." both Bauscher and Magiera have the right reading, though they use the form of Marya that they like..."The Lord Jehovah" (B) and The LORD (M).

In Rev 14:13, Roth has "...that die in Master YHWH from now on." But the text actually reads d'Maran = The Master?so it should read thus. "...who die (or depart) in The Master from now on." Which both Bauscher and Magiera have in their translations of the same text that Roth says he uses. Again no note in Roth's edition that I have?

Maybe he has all these fixed in his latest edition? I'm not sure...He should have stuck with The Khabouris Text though... it?s The Peshitta. And as Jeremy has pointed put, even his Aramaic text, is a hybrid sort of text, which no one Manusript reads like in every place. This is why I made such a bold statement there...Andrew has took it upon himself to creat a new Manuscript, from various sources and edit an english text in the way he thinks it should read, but has no single support in any one Manuscript.


Shlama,
Chuck
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#15
Shlama Chuck,

Oh yeah, I've noticed those instances as well. There's also a verse in Matthew where there is a "Marya mix-up". I e-mailed Andrew and Baruch about some of the instances I found (we'll see if it's fixed in the latest edition coming out in a month or two), and I'm pretty sure one of those Revelation passages is already corrected.

In any case, I agree that it would have been good to stick to Khabouris and give variants in footnotes, and then have the Aramaic be strictly the Khabouris as well. As far as I was aware I think it's the 1905 critical edition though, so wouldn't that explain why it doesn't read like any single manuscript?
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