01-04-2012, 04:17 AM
Thirdwoe Wrote:I too have experienced/heard the false and the legit gift being used. And it was not from naturally bi-ligual or multi-ligual people. I attend a Baptist church and the Church of the East these days, so I have not heard anything other than English and Aramaic the last few years...we'll maybe some spanish here and there too. <!-- s--><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="
But....can we say that The Apostle Paul was chiding the Corinthian believers for speaking too many known languages in the gathering? He tells them to keep it down to two or at the most three people who should use this gift of the Spirit. Does that make sense if it were just some guys getting up and speaking in some languages that they had previously learned and understood? For what reason?
Once it is understood that these are Spiritual languages, or Languages uttered by and through the Holy Spirit's inspiration, and not just a naturally learned language...I mean, did the Disciples on Pentecost day, learn those languages ahead of time, or was it the Holy Spirit that was speaking in and through them praises to God, which the others who spoke those languages understood? It seems to me that the Disciples knew not of what they were speaking.
To me, this passage below makes perfect sense, once this is understood to be speaking about Spiritual Languages, uttered by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit...rather than normal languages that they always spoke in and had learned ahead of time. Otherwise its confusing at best.
1 Corinthians 14:13-19
"13Therefore, one who speaks in a (spiritual) languge, should pray for the power to interpret (it). 14 For if I pray in a (spiritual) language, my spirit prays, but my mind (understanding) is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit (langauge), but I will pray with my mind (language) also; I will sing praise with my spirit (langauge), but I will sing with my mind (language) also. 16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit (langauge), how can anyone in the position of an outsider say ?Amen? to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For, you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in (spiritual) languages more than all of you. 19 Nevertheless, in church, I would rather speak five words with my mind (language) in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a (spiritual) language."
I mean, why would the person speaking in a laguage that he could understand, having learned it, need to pray for the interpretation? He could just say the same thing in the language that the people could all understand. And how does one's spirit pray or sing in languages, and it be any less of the mind doing so in there 1st learned language? By using their 2nd or 3rd learned language? So, if I learn to speak Spanish, and then pray or sing in Spanish, its my spirit praying or singing, but if I pray or sing to God in English, its just my mind praying and singing? I don't think that makes any sense at all.
And lastly...there at the end of the passage, The Apostle Paul says that he thanked God that he spoke in tongues (which I take to mean, spiritual languages) more than them all... If we think that he is just saying that he thanked God, that he spoke in more languages than the rest of them, then why does he go on to say, nevertheless, he would rather speak five words with his mind, so he could instruct others with them, than 10,000 words in a tongue. Notice that five words are from his own mind, but the other 10,000 words are not said to be so, but seems to me to be speaking of the spirit, as he speaks of earlier, which gives the utterance, not the natural mind, and so the person needs to pray and ask God for the interpretation of them, in order to edify the hearers of them, as their minds, including the speaker is not understanding what is being said. So he has to pray and ask God for help to do so, and the interpretation is also given by the Holy Spirit's inspiration.
Blessings,
Chuck
Shlama akhi,
i think that the gift of languages spoken of is, for the most part, known languages, but the difference is the person receiving the gift doesn't themselves "know" the language beforehand. similarly, someone who speaks or prays or sings in a language unknown to them, but only memorized via liturgy, would also fit the bill as needing interpretation. true they speak praise and blessing, but if they don't know what they say, then explanation is required.
the ecstatic speech heard so often in Western Churches appears to be an abuse of what was originally intended, especially when one looks at the history of the modern rise of it with the Azusa Street incidents and the missionaries sent forth from there who believed they had received the gift of known languages, but upon meeting others of different tongues, could not converse with them. it was only after this failure that the "incoherent" form of "tongues" came into being as a teaching. have you researched the history of this? it really is very very interesting.
i am not above the Father using ANYTHING to get His message across, so i am by no means against it, just from the evidence and the history the known languages
seem more likely.
Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy