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AENT Hebrews 3:18-19: Obey vs. belief
#1
AENT Hebrews 3:8-9: "and of whom swore he, that they should not enter into his rest, but of those who did not BELIEVE? So we see that they could not enter, because they did not OBEY.

I've noticed that every other Greek-English translation from my E-Sword program (ASV, BBE, CEV, DRB, ESV, GNB, KJV, LITV, and even "The Scriptures") swap BELIEVE and OBEY around, for example:

American Standard Version (ASV): "And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were DISOBEDIENT? And we see that they were not able to enter in because of UNBELIEF." (CAPS mine)

I'm wondering if anybody has any other Aramaic or manuscript insight on the order of these two words in the passage because this seems like it could have implications on "Salvation Theology"--that is because it relates the importance of BELIEF (faith, like Abraham's in Genesis 3:16) with OBEDIENCE (works, which validate 'faith' (James 2:12-24)).

But I found it interesting that all these other "Greek-based" translations have the words reversed from the AENT.

Shlama,
Thomas
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#2
The Greek word is derived from paitho, which is only an abstract word, meaning 'persuade.' Apaitheo, as such, is literally defined as 'to not allow oneself to be persuaded.' SEDRA3 marks the Aramaic word here as of Greek origin, though it is not the same as apaitheo as per the Greek text. Payne-Smith says that it's from paisai, which is a variant form of paitho... so it's not an issue of Aramaic vs. Greek here.
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#3
Thomas, which edition of the AENT are you looking at?

And its Hebrews 3:18-19 <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

In the 1st Edition of the AENT, which is all I have at the moment, it has this reading: "and of whom swore he, that they should not enter into his rest, but of those who did not believe? So we see that they could not enter, because they did not believe."

In the 1st instance where Andrew translated "Believe" in vs 18, it has the meaning of "to be convinced" of or "to be persuaded" of something. They were not convinced, or, un-convinced and not persuaded, that it was good to follow God's instructions

And in the 2nd instance in vs 19, which he chose to render the same way "Believe" it means "to trust in" or "to believe upon". They chose not to believe in or upon God, after they were not convinced or not persuaded that God was leading them right and to goodness.

I don't know where Andrew's choice of "obey" comes from in vs 19, unless it's his interpretation of what he believes the word or verse implies there, rather than what the word and verse simply is or says.

Both the Eastern Peshitta Text and the Western Peshitto Text, is the same here. And Etheridge, Bauscher, and Magiera all have it that way...and Murdoch has it the way Roth has it in his 1st edition, it being a revision of his (Murdoch's) translation for the most part.

Andrew? What say ye?

Blessings,
Chuck
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#4
:

Also...take a look at John 3:36...and compare with what is found in the Aramaic for both verses in Hebrews 3:18-19 & John 3:36... <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
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#5
Chuck, Wow! Thanks so much. I corrected the error in the post, and I was blown away when I read John 3:36, as you suggested.
I have the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition AENTs, and all of them use the word OBEY in Hebrews 3:19.

There is nothing wrong with Paul saying "Of whom swore He that they should not enter His rest because they were not persuaded[i]; so we see that they could not enter His rest because [i]they were not persuaded[i].[/i][/i][/i]

However, it seems like both the AENT and the other Greek-based English translations seem to be choosing the words BELIEVE and OBEY at will, according to my first post at the top. But if I understood your reply above then most Aramaic (Peshitta / Peshitto) renditions use BELIEVE in both vs. 18-19?? Perhaps Andrew was applying a less-than-literal application of "OBEY" according to his understanding. Is this what you are saying? Certainly, if John 3:36 is rendered precisely in the AENT then these two verses are complementary to each other, and make a nice fit together...

John 3:36 AENT "He who believes in the Son has life that is eternal, and he who does not obey the Son will not see life, rather the wrath of Elohim will rise up against him."

Thanks,
Thomas
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#6
Quote:There is nothing wrong with Paul saying "Of whom swore He that they should not enter His rest because they were not persuaded; so we see that they could not enter His rest because [i]they were not persuaded[i].[/i][/i]

However, it seems like both the AENT and the other Greek-based English translations seem to be choosing the words BELIEVE and OBEY at will, according to my first post at the top. But if I understood your reply above then most Aramaic (Peshitta / Peshitto) renditions use BELIEVE in both vs. 18-19?? Perhaps Andrew was applying a less-than-literal application of "OBEY" according to his understanding. Is this what you are saying? Certainly, if John 3:36 is rendered precisely in the AENT then these two verses are complementary to each other, and make a nice fit together...

Thomas, John Wesley Etheridge, Glenn David Bauscher, and Janet Magiera all have it correct in their translations and which agree with the straight text itself.

Here is a very literal rendering I just made of the verse from the Aramaic Texts, which both the Eastern & Western is almost identical.

Eastern Text: Hebrews 3:18-19 From The Khabouris Manuscript Text "Concerning who, {He} swore {they would} not enter rest, but concerning those {who were} not persuaded/convinced, behold, they {were} not able {to} enter, because [they did} not believe/trust."

Western Text: Hebrews 3:18-19 From The BFBS/UBS Text "Concerning who, {He} swore {they would} not enter rest, but concerning those {who were} not persuaded/convinced, behold, {they were} not able {to} enter, because {they did} not believe/trust."

Quote:But if I understood your reply above then most Aramaic (Peshitta / Peshitto) renditions use BELIEVE in both vs. 18-19??

No...but two that I have seen have...James Murdoch's 1800s translation, and Andrew Gabriel Roth's 2008 translation, which is a revision of that former translation...which he chose to leave that verse as he found it, in the 1st edition (which is the one I have) of his (Andrew's) translation.

Quote:Perhaps Andrew was applying a less-than-literal application of "OBEY" according to his understanding. Is this what you are saying?

Perhaps, yes?here is a note from a Brother who is working on a literal translation of the Khabouris Manuscript, part of which I'll show here.
"The term for ?convicted? is ETH?TPEEYS?W, carrying the idea of ?convincing? or ?persuading,? It can also have the nuances of ?obedience,? ?intercession,? and ?supplication,? which also shed light upon the intended meaning of the text. There was no obedience in these people, no supplication going up, and thus no intercession for sins. Despite the miracles witnessed and the faithfulness of Alaha which carried them daily, they could not be persuaded in their hearts to follow after Him."

Quote:Certainly, if John 3:36 is rendered precisely in the AENT then these two verses are complementary to each other, and make a nice fit together...

The underlying word is not exactly the same, but carries the same meaning, which basically means that they had no conviction?and thus were not persuaded to obey God?s instructions. If you look the words up and see which verse use each word?you can see that it can mean disobedience, from lack of conviction, being not persuaded or un-convinced to follow God?s way.
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#7
Sorry, my reply was a bit misleading, as I didn't fully address the first post...
The short of it is that Andrew's rendering is not as trivial as rendering the same word differently in these places, because they're not the same word, as Thirdwoe has pointed out.
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#8
Thomas,

After looking it over one more time. Closer... "believe" and "obey" needs to be switched in Andrew's latest AENT. In the Aramaic Text, the two words are in the same order as is found in the Greek texts, so, "obey" should be in verse 18 not 19, as it is a possible nuance of the Aramaic word there, and not of the word in verse 19, which should be "believe" or "trust"...

Also....as to the salvation theology issue....John 6:29 seems to me to answer the question as how "Obedieance" and "Believing", go hand in hand, as seen in those two other verses...Hebrews 3:18-19 & John 3:36

Blessings,
Chuck
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#9
Chuck, thanks so much for your reply. If you're not uncomfortable venturing from the linguistics topic for a moment, I would like to ask you what your thoughts are on comparing/contrasting these two passages together:

John 6:29 "Y'Shua answered and said to them, "This is the work of Elohim that you should believe in whom He sent."

Matthew 19:16 "..."Good teacher, what is good that I should do that I should have eternal life?" Then he said to him... Now if you desire to enter into life, keep the Commandments."
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#10
Thirdwoe, Andrew Gabriel Roth read your suggestion about switching "obey" and "believe" in Hebrews 3:18-19 and here is what he replied to me, personally:

"... you can tell Thirdwoe I will consider his point carefully. I don?t necessarily think it MUST be switched?there are times when actual word order creates other issues in English?but he very well could be right that it probably SHOULD be switched.

You can also tell the folks at peshitta.org that if they have a question on the AENT, they are more than welcome to post it for free here at One Faith One People. That?s why I created the blog here so that all issues can be dealt with in one place.

Todah for sending and let Thirdwoe know I appreciate his insights!"
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#11
Hi Thomas, thats good that he may change that rendering. Thanks for pointing it out to our brother Andrew.

As to your other post above, I'll say this.

We can only keep His Commandments when we are walking in The Spirit, not in the flesh, by His powerful will at work in us, both doing and willing in us...See Philippians 2:13....not in our own strength of will power. Also consider John 15:14 & Matthew 12:50 when looking at those other verses.

I believe that if a person truly Believes in or on The Messiah, they will be obedient unto His Instructions/Commands, which He laid down in the New Covenant He established. To "Believe" in this sense, is not just to acknowledge that The Messiah is The Son of God, as even the demons believe this...it is to Trust in His sacrifice, and to follow His instructions as His Servant, He being our King. To Believe & Obey thus go hand in hand with each other.

Peace & Maranatha,
Chuck
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#12
Beautifully stated! Thanks again for all the insight and information. Blessings.
Thomas
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