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Potter in MT 26 A translation mistake
#31
enarxe Wrote:"1) Luke wrote in chronological order"


Yes, I have read your earlier statement about Shimun being a popular name, before writing what I think. Stating it twice or "reminding" does not make it a stronger argument.

With peace,
Jerzy

The same to you as as to the professor. I find the arguments that this is the same event, very weak, just based on 'Shimun' and a woman who annoints Yeshu, while there is a total lack of friends, not being mentioned La-azar, who was an important friend, being there as well. The fact that a lot of people were named Shimeun, and Yaqub as well, really is an important historical fact. And yes, this is the third mention. Read on as I'll explain why.
Just ignored by people, for instance, who claimed to have found the family tomb of Yeshu. It makes the argument not strong indeed.

If you just keep the scripture, there is a BIG difference between the two narratives.

Mark 14 mentions
* Context and city Beth-Anya
* no mention of any talk with Shimeun
* mention of marta and maryam being sisters of La-azar.
* Yeshu said: "she did it for my funeral"
* she annointed his head
* It was nardus, worth a 300 denarii (so the woman was rich).
* The woman (maryam) is not mentioned to be a sinner (prostitue) _and_ she does not cry.
* it was 2 days before petsha, at which Yeshu would be killed. (According to John 6 days)
* His disciples grunt at that, but get a lesson: what she did, will be told everywhere


Luke 7
* Context Galilea
* No mention of a near death of Yeshu
* Yeshu was invited by a separatist (not any mention of La-azar)
* A woman cries, dries Yeshu's feet and annoints the feet (not the head!). No mention of expensive nardus
* No mention of disciples grunting at the 'waste' of expensive oil.
* Shimeun judges her and thinks that Yeshu didn't know the woman was a prostitute
* Shimeun gets a lesson about forgiveness
* Yeshu sais: "go, your sins are forgiven"

The ONLY 'striking' similarity is the name shimeun! So, what exactly is the point? I really wonder, why these to accounts -must- be the same?
Because, so many names were similar, people got nicknames, as some of the 12 apostles got nicknames as well, and I consider 'simon the leper' as a nickname as well (or the 'potter').
Even if Shimeun was a potter, adding 'the potter' to the name, would be an important fact to identify which shimeun we're addressing. Obviusly, this Shimeun was a separatist, not a potter.
(Compare Acts 9:43)

Also consider the facts about Maryam. She was forgiven and healed LONG before this event. Since Yeshu visited them before already and had a meal with them. Maryam was already closely known with Yeshu, while Luke 7 mentions that the woman (unnamed) cried because of her sins.
Now when we read John 11:2 we get the real link between the two stories.
Obviously, the woman in Luke 7 is Maryam. Maryam had annointed Yeshu twice. Once in the narrative in Luke 7, at the beginning of Yeshu's earthly service, the second time, she did it just before the funeral of Yeshu (6 or 2 days before petsha).


I wonder, if the professor and you really realize, that telling people that these events are actually the same, does harm the story! It simply tells that the Gospel writers were *very inaccurate* and thus, probably we need -other- euhhh, say, 'more reliable' sources which are correct, right? This probably is food for 'Bart Ehrman-style' arguments. And you know who read/absorbe his books.
It makes Luke also a liar, he writes that he carefully wrote down the events. So, either Luke is a liar, or Mark+Matthew+John are liars.

I leave it at that.
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#32
Seems pretty clear to me, Distazo. Thanks for pointing those differences out.
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#33
distazo Wrote:[..]I wonder, if the professor and you really realize, that telling people that these events are actually the same, does harm the story! It simply tells that the Gospel writers were *very inaccurate* and thus, [..]
It makes Luke also a liar, he writes that he carefully wrote down the events. So, either Luke is a liar, or Mark+Matthew+John are liars.

I leave it at that.

These are strong words. I'm yet to _meet_ a person for whom what I wrote makes the Gospel writers liars or their narratives *very inaccurate*. You are first, but you are online, no name known, no way to know what triggers this (I trust it is not Luke 18:9?).

Have you ever thought why Mark and Matthew (and Luke) do not mention the name of the woman? Just a food for thought. As you "left it at that" no answer expected. I just see that you are making several assumptions (do you realize that you are making them?), for example, if you follow strictly what would be in Luke an answer to Mt 26:13 and Mk 14:9? One thing you can be sure, myself and (most likely) others are reading the text many times and thinking about it before posting comments.

I'm sorry my question brought this off-topic, I really do appreciate that you had raised the main subject, the explanations by Paul and the leprosy (and other) insights by professor writer and I hope to learn more in the future on other Peshitta related subjects from all of you. On this one from my side "over and out" <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink --> .
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#34
Hello everyone-

I want to reply in a reserved manner here. I do not believe that the Stories mentioned above are contradictory. My own analysis points me to an earlier time.
Many see parallels of TYPE (in Matthew, esp.) between the Moses of the OT and Jesus of the NT.
I look at Alexander Jannaeus ( Hasmonean and of the House of Eleazar) as a Type and I do so here.

The Pharisees are hated by the Hasmoneans and if you go to Josephus, you find the reason - the hatred was mutual. Hyrcanus 1 was told by a Pharisee named "Eleazar" (Hmmm...) that his mother was a "Comfort Girl" to the Greeks:

Josephus, _Antiquities..._, 13, 10, 5:

"We have heard it from old men, that thy mother had been a captive under the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes." This story was false, and Hyrcanus was provoked against him; and all the Pharisees had a very great indignation against him..."

Jannaeus faces the same smear:

Josephus, _Antiquities_, 13, 13, 5:

They also reviled him [[Jannaeus]], as derived from a captive, and so unworthy of his dignity and of sacrificing.

The smear is explicit against Hyrcanus 1 and Jannaeus but it becomes submerged and hidden when attached to Jannaeus' wife, Queen Salome. It is "assumed" that Jannaeus married his brother's wife, "...who was called Alexandra by the Greeks..." in a Leverite Ritual. Jannaeus, "who was the superior in age and in moderation" to his brother, would have been 13 at the time of marriage to a "Salome Alexandra" (See Jewish Encyclopedia, "Alexandra"). In short, Jannaeus did not marry "Salome Alexandra", his brother's wife. Jannaeus married Salome.
With this, we see by way of Type, that the Pharisees are using a Racial and Class Smear against both Jesus and the woman:

Luke 7: 39 (RSV):

[39] Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw it, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner."

I believe that the Stories from Mark and Luke are different although the subjects are the same. The Hasmoneans are legitimate Kings and High Priests. The Pharisees ran the government bureaucracy and, with the ascension of Queen Salome:

"So she had indeed the name of the regent, but the Pharisees had the authority... to say all at once, they differed in nothing from lords."

The Pharisee in the Lukan Story continues the Smear: Jesus could not be a Prophet (Or High Priest or King) because he would have known that this woman "...was a sinner". That is, she would prostitute herself to anyone - especially Greeks.

CW
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#35
A few observations and the texts:

The Gospel Harmonies that I have seen, both the ancient one by Tatian, and the modern ones I've seen, show that these two events are not the same, as seen below.

When all things are considered here; it is clear that they are not the same event. Distazo, is correct.

A Penitent Woman Anoints Jesus
(Luke 7:36-50) from the Greek version.

Source: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://interwovengospels.com/A_Penitent_Woman_Anoints_Jesus.htm">http://interwovengospels.com/A_Penitent ... _Jesus.htm</a><!-- m -->

Now one of the Pharisees requested Jesus to eat with him. And having entered into the house of the Pharisee, He reclined at table.

And behold, a woman who was in the city, a sinner; learning that He was reclining at table in the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster flask of ointment, and standing behind at His feet, weeping, she began to wet His feet with her tears, and wiped them off with the hair of her head, and kissed His feet affectionately and anointed them with the ointment.

Now, the Pharisee who had invited Him, seeing it, thought to himself, "This Man, if He were a prophet, would know who and what sort of woman this is who touches Him, for she is a sinner."

And Jesus knowing Simon's thoughts, said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to thee." Then he saith, "Teacher, say on."
Then Jesus said, "A certain moneylender had two debtors. The one owed five hundred shillings and the other fifty. But they having nothing to pay with, he forgave them both. Which of them, therefore, will love him the more?"

Simon, answering, said, "I suppose, he to whom he forgave the more." Then Jesus said to him, "Thou hast judged rightly." And turning to the woman, He said to Simon, "See thou this woman? When I entered into thy house; thou gave Me no water for My feet: but she hath wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. Thou gave Me no kiss of greeting, but she, from the time I came in, hath not ceased to kiss affectionately My feet. You did not anoint My head with oil, but she hath anointed My feet with ointment. For this reason, I say to thee, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven; because she loved much: but he, to whom little is forgiven, loves little."

Then He said to her, "Thy sins have been forgiven." And those reclining with Him began to say among themselves, "Who is this that forgives sins?" But He said to the woman, "Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace."

The Diatessaron 160 A.D.

Source: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf09.iv.iii.xiv.html?scrBook=Luke&scrCh=7&scrV=36#iv.iii.xiv-p63.1">http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf09.i ... .xiv-p63.1</a><!-- m -->

?And after that, there came to him one of the Pharisees, and besought him that he would eat bread with him. And he entered into the house of that Pharisee, and reclined.

And there was in that city a woman, a sinner; and when she knew that he was sitting in the house of that Pharisee, she took a box of sweet ointment, and stood behind him, towards his feet, weeping, and began to wet his feet with her tears, and to wipe them with the hair of her head, and to kiss his feet, and anoint them with the sweet ointment.

And when that Pharisee saw it, who invited him, he thought within himself, and said, This man, if he were a prophet, would know who she is and what is her history: for the woman which touched him was a sinner.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Simon, I have something to say unto thee. He said unto him, Say on, my Master.

Jesus said unto him, there were two debtors to one creditor; and one of them owed five hundred pence, and the other owed fifty pence. And because they had not wherewith to pay, he forgave them both. Which of them ought to love him more?

Simon answered and said, I suppose, he to whom he forgave most. Jesus said unto him, Thou hast judged rightly.

And he turned to that woman, and said to Simon, Dost thou see this woman? I entered into thy dwelling, and thou gave me not water to wash my feet: but this woman hath bathed my feet with her tears, and dried them with her hair. And thou kissed me not: but this woman, since she entered, hath not ceased to kiss my feet. And thou anointed not my head with oil: but this woman hath anointed my feet with sweet ointment.

And for this, I say unto thee, Her many sins are forgiven her, because she loved much; for he to whom little is forgiven loves little. And he said unto that woman, Thy sins are forgiven thee. And those that were invited began to say within themselves, who is this that forgives sins also? And Jesus said to that woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.


Mary Anoints Jesus at the Feast in Bethany
(Matthew 26:6-13; Mark 14:3-9; John 12:2-8) From the Greek version.

Source: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://interwovengospels.com/Mary_Anoints_Jesus_at_the_Feast_in_Bethany.htm.1">http://interwovengospels.com/Mary_Anoin ... hany.htm.1</a><!-- m -->

Now while Jesus was in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper (the potter), they made Him a feast there. And Martha served, but Lazarus was one of those who reclined at table with Him.

Then Mary took an alabaster jar of a pound of ointment, pure spikenard, very costly, and breaking the alabaster, she anointed the feet of Jesus, and poured it on His head as He reclined at table. And she wiped His feet with her hair; and the house was filled with the odor of the ointment.

But Judas Iscariot, one of His disciples, who was about to betray Him, saith, "Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred shillings and given to the poor?" Now he said this, not because he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and having the purse, was taking away what was put into it.

Then some other disciples seeing it became indignant, saying, "Why hath this waste of ointment been made? For this might have been sold for much more than three hundred shillings, and given to the poor." And they upbraided her.

But, Jesus perceiving it, said to them, "Let her alone. Why do ye trouble the woman? For she hath wrought a good work on Me. For ye have the poor always with you, and whenever ye wish ye can do them good; but Me ye have not always. For the day of My burial she kept it. She hath done what she could. She hath come beforehand to anoint My body for the burial: for she, in pouring this ointment on My body, did it to prepare Me for burial.

And verily I say to you. Wheresoever this Gospel shall be preached, in the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her."

The Diatessaron 160 A.D.

Source: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf09.iv.iii.xxxix.html?scrBook=Mark&scrCh=14&scrV=3#iv.iii.xxxix-p7">http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf09.i ... i.xxxix-p7</a><!-- m -->.

And Jesus six days before the Passover came to Bethany, where was Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from among the dead. And they made a feast for him there: and Martha was serving; while Lazarus was one of them that sat with him.

And at the time of Jesus? being at Bethany in the house of Simon the potter, great multitudes of the Jews heard that Jesus was there: and they came, not because of Jesus alone, but that they might look also on Lazarus, whom he raised from among the dead. And the chief priests considered how they might kill Lazarus also; because many of the Jews were going on his account, and believing in Jesus.

And Mary took a case of the ointment of fine nard, of great price, and opened it, and poured it out on the head of Jesus as he was reclining; and she anointed his feet, and wiped them with her hair: and the house was filled with the odor of the ointment. But Judas Iscariot, one of the disciples, he that was to betray him, said, Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given unto the poor?

This he said, not because of his care for the poor, but because he was a thief, and the chest was with him, and what was put into it he used to bear. And that displeased the rest of the disciples also within themselves, and they said, why went this ointment to waste? It was possible that it should be sold for much, and the poor be given it. And they were angry with Mary.

And Jesus perceived it, and said unto them, Leave her; why molest ye her? a good work hath she accomplished on me: for the day of my burial kept she it. At all times the poor are with you, and when ye wish ye can do them a kindness: but I am not at all times with you. And for this cause, when she poured this ointment on my body, it is as if she did it for my burial, and anointed my body beforehand.

And verily I say unto you, In every place where this my gospel shall be proclaimed in all the world, what she did shall be told for a memorial of her.

.
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#36
Just for convenience:

This shows that there are two events, with the same woman, ie Maryam.

Quote:John 11:2 - It was that Mariam who anointed with balsam the feet of Jeshu, and wiped (them) with her hair, whose brother this Loozar was who was sick.
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#37
The events of Matthew, Mark, and John are speaking of the same Mariam, who was the sister of Lazarus of Bethany, whom Jesus raised from the dead after four days in the tomb. And this event that she preformed for Jesus' burial, is spoken of there in John 11:2. She is the same sister of Martha, who was busy with preparing and asked Jesus to have Mariam help her out.

But, the other woman, is called a "sinner", which I think means a prostitute, and so, I don't see that she is the same person at all, nor does John even mention that former event in Jesus' Ministry. I believe John is speaking of the event which he will later record in chapter 12.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
"It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment,.... Not the woman in Luke 7:37, as some have thought, whose name is not mentioned, and which history is not related by John at all: but Mary in John 12:3, who is both mentioned by name, and along with Lazarus her brother, and with whom all the circumstances of the affair suit; and though the fact was not yet done, yet John writing many years after it was done, and when it was well known, proleptically, and in a parenthesis, takes notice of it here:"


Shlama,
Chuck
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#38
Thirdwoe Wrote:The events of Matthew, Mark, and John are speaking of the same Mariam, who was the sister of Lazarus of Bethany, whom Jesus raised from the dead after four days in the tomb. And this event that she preformed for Jesus' burial, is spoken of there in John 11:2. She is the same sister of Martha, who was busy with preparing and asked Jesus to have Mariam help her out.

But, the other woman, is called a "sinner", which I think means a prostitute, and so, I don't see that she is the same person at all, nor does John even mention that former event in Jesus' Ministry. I believe John is speaking of the event which he will later record in chapter 12.


Chuck

Sure, she is not named.
But it is possible very well, that Luke 7 wrote about the first acquaintance from Maryam with Yeshu.
After her conversion, she, Laazar and her sister, became very good friends with Yeshu.
It would not be nice to call her a sinner (by the gospelwriters) -after- she converted. This is a very good reason, to keep her name disclosed in Luke 7.
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#39
It's possible or, it could be that it is not the same woman. Maybe it was Mariam the Magdalene. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> We cant be sure, who it was.
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