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Could somebody who?s familiar with IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) post how Pthakha is pronounced in Eastern Aramaic (in the regular cases as well as exceptions)?
In fact, if it?s not too much trouble, having IPA pronunciation for all vowels would help a lot. What <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Syriac_alphabet">https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... c_alphabet</a><!-- m --> says seems to come at odds at times with how I hear it pronounced on some of the sites I am learning from.
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Based on how I hear Assyrians pronounce words this is my understanding thus far:
Pthakha - [?] - <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-open_front_unrounded_vowel">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-open_ ... nded_vowel</a><!-- m -->
Sqapa - [a] - <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_front_unrounded_vowel">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_front_unrounded_vowel</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_alphabet">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_alphabet</a><!-- m --> has it different though:
Pthakha - [a] - <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_front_unrounded_vowel">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_front_unrounded_vowel</a><!-- m -->
Sqapa - [a:] - <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_back_unrounded_vowel">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_back_unrounded_vowel</a><!-- m -->
Sometimes Pthakha sounds like Sqapa, but the rules for when that happens are not too clear to me yet.
I am familiar with IPA a little bit, because that's how I learnt English back in my country. It would be of tremendous help to have Aramaic sounds spelled out using IPA. The English transliteration is not that helpful to me, not too clear and too approximate.
Note: MySQL here doesn't allow me to enter Unicode, so I posted the links to respective IPA symbols.
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Shlama borota,
I definitely hear [?] clearly in the word "malkutakh" (your kingdom) in the Awon D'Bashmaya when I visit the ACOE in Chicago.
bar Sinko
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borota Wrote:Based on how I hear Assyrians pronounce words this is my understanding thus far:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_alphabet">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_alphabet</a><!-- m --> has it different though:
Pthakha - [a] - <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_front_unrounded_vowel">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_front_unrounded_vowel</a><!-- m -->
The vowel quality of both the sqapa and the pthakha are like the sound above except that the pthakha is a short vowel in length. It's about half the length of the sqapa. Also, the pthakha is almost always used in a word with a closed syllable and it lengthens the sound of the consonant that follows it. The sqapa can be a long or a short vowel but, unlike the pthakha, it does not lengthen the sound of the consonant that follows it. If it occurs in an open syllable, it carries the long vowel sound, in a closed syllable, the short pthakha-like sound.
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To me as a foreigner to the language, I hear Pthaka actually changing into [?] before Lamad (at least). Not sure if this is standard pronunciation but that's how I hear it. As native speaker, one might not even be aware that's the case.
For example, I was boasting once to a British guy, how perfectly phonetic my native language writing (Romanian) was. He just started reading to me the words exactly how they should have been read, according to the usual value of the letters. I was appalled how some words sounded :-). Now I am aware that our writing is not actually as phonetic as I thought. And we distort vowels and consonant quite badly in certain combinations. When we start learning writing as kids, the teacher would just correct us whenever we'd read words too precisely to the letter. After a while we wouldn?t even realize any longer we were distorting vowels and consonants in certain combinations.
Interesting this business of learning languages, I find it quite exciting.
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borota Wrote:To me as a foreigner to the language, I hear Pthaka actually changing into [?] before Lamad (at least). Not sure if this is standard pronunciation but that's how I hear it. As native speaker, one might not even be aware that's the case.
For example, I was boasting once to a British guy, how perfectly phonetic my native language writing (Romanian) was. He just started reading to me the words exactly how they should have been read, according to the usual value of the letters. I was appalled how some words sounded :-). Now I am aware that our writing is not actually as phonetic as I thought. And we distort vowels and consonant quite badly in certain combinations. When we start learning writing as kids, the teacher would just correct us whenever we'd read words too precisely to the letter. After a while we wouldn?t even realize any longer we were distorting vowels and consonants in certain combinations.
Interesting this business of learning languages, I find it quite exciting.
Hi borota,
Honestly, I have never heard that vowel used in any modern spoken Aramaic dialect. That vowel exists in English and being fluent in English I'm sure I would catch it if I heard it spoken in Aramaic but honestly I can't tell you I have. Are the people you here speaking Aramaic native speakers of the language?
You said you have heard it pronounced as ? before a Lamad, do you recall the specific words you heard it in? Perhaps other native speakers of the language can chime in.
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Hi Mshikhaya,
I am learning from what used to be <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://assyrianlanguage.com/">http://assyrianlanguage.com/</a><!-- m -->. I have found a copy of it from here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://rapidshare.com/files/135142536/Assyrian__Syriac__Aramaic_Grammar_With_Sounds_-Html.rar.html">http://rapidshare.com/files/135142536/A ... l.rar.html</a><!-- m -->
I am also using <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.learnassyrian.com/home.html">http://www.learnassyrian.com/home.html</a><!-- m -->
I am also using this link to learn the Lord's prayer: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.nestorian.org/the_lord_s_prayer_in_aramaic.html">http://www.nestorian.org/the_lord_s_pra ... amaic.html</a><!-- m -->
I hear a difference in the way Pthakha is pronounced in Alap vs. Gamal. Or as bar Sinko mentioned already, in malkuthakh.
I want to put the Lord's Prayer in IPA using <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.nestorian.org/the_lord_s_prayer_in_aramaic.html">http://www.nestorian.org/the_lord_s_pra ... amaic.html</a><!-- m -->. Is that a valid pronunciation? If so, I'd really appreciate your help, to fix where I get it wrong.
Greg
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borota Wrote:Hi Mshikhaya,
I want to put the Lord's Prayer in IPA using <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.nestorian.org/the_lord_s_prayer_in_aramaic.html">http://www.nestorian.org/the_lord_s_pra ... amaic.html</a><!-- m -->. Is that a valid pronunciation? If so, I'd really appreciate your help, to fix where I get it wrong.
Greg
Shlama 'Allakh Greg,
It is a genuine pronunciation. In modern Christian Aramaic, there are a few different accents, so you might hear some differences from one speaker to another in the way they would vocalize the Lord's prayer. Nonetheless, the person saying that prayer is using a genuine pronunciation based on his dialect.
Unfortunately, I still can't hear the ? vowel that you were refering to earlier. Can you point it out to me from among the words in the Lord's prayer that you posted? That way I can listen to it carefully to make sure I'm not missing anything.
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Shlama Mshikhaya,
I hear it in 'malkuthakh'. Also in 'd'wash-maya', Pthakha is not an [a] to my years, but it sounds to me more like an [e], like in [day].
Thanks,
Greg
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I meant ears, not years.
Although years might indeed have a saying in how fine tuned my ears really are :-)
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