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Come, let us reason of Enoch of old
#16
True. But St. Luke worked with Paulos Shlikha. St. Luke worked during the time of Apostles and he may have worked some of Apostles. St. Luke's works (Gospel of Luke, Acts of Apostles) were among 22 New Testament books. And these 22 New Testaments were given to Church of the East by Apostles. So St. Luke's works are important.
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#17
Rafa Wrote:What Jude is quoting might not even be Enoch, how do you know Enoch is not quoting something else ? Was not the lines in question Jude quoted in the ascension of Moses as well ? If we found this book should it be in the canon ? Obviously not no ? Just because Jude quotes it means nothing. St. Paul quoted Menander and Epictetus to his audience does not mean they should be in the canon obviously.


Paul saying "Even one of your own said..." is NOT the same as directly word for word quoting scripture, not only by the direct name of the prophet, but an almost verbatim prophechy. By pointing out that he was quoting from somebody belonging to the pagans, he was already confirming that it wasnt scripture.

And speaking of Paul, why would he in 1 Corinthians warn women to cover their heads during prayer, BECAUSE OF THE ANGELS? What Christian can answer that, apart from using the account in Enoch/Genesis?

Remember, we dont battle against flesh and blood, but powers and principalities.
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#18
Andrej Wrote:rungold315, i hope you did not think i implied that your approach was wrong? And, you are aware that most people here don't believe in a western 66 Book canon?
About the canon, i do currently use the 66-book canon, but if i see reason to change that, i easily would. The problem is, if you break open the canon you will have to deal with thousandfold more than just the book of enoch.

About the prophecies: Such similarities can be found in many places, and are not only an expression of the divine, but also of the underlying culture (people expressed themselves in similar ways in that time). A lot of end time prophecies are mirrored in many cultures on earth, some of which you may consider evil and satanic (even islam has a lot of NT prophecies, though with their own twist). i hope that we don't have to add the Quran to our canon though. The Tao te king has a lot of parallels and near-quotes from Song of Solomon, and yet no one ever thought about including it into our canon.

Establishing rules for a canon is very hard. The OT canon we use is more based on traditional / historical aspects than someone categorizing books as canon/non-canon. Most people like to back it up by saying that Jesus quoted from almost all of the 39 Books of the OT canon (but apparently not from the OT apocryphical writings) and by the fact that it was preserved widely and seperately by both jews and christians.

If you have any idea what the proper method of establishing a canon is, let me know. Jude quoting from enoch alone cannot make it canon. If enoch was a true account, it would be irrelevant if it was canon or not, there would be no reason why he could not quote from it.

i am not against enoch in any way, but i am not sure it really harmonizes with the Bible. The same story with the Shepherd of Hermas, which is a very interesting book.

Andre, I agree with you about the can of worms being opened and spilled by attempting to include Enoch back into the canon. Theres also the Revelation of St. Paul, the gospel of thomas, the gospel of barnabus, etc etc and it gets overwhelming. (The book I mentioned mentions these other writings too)

But we know the Quran just steals from the Bible. And as for the Chinese you mentioned, that just tells us that God does reach out to the heathen "without the law" as well as those with the law.

But Jude quoting Enoch isnt the only reason why I believe Enoch is special. Its found in the DSS, so we know its ancient and was found with our other accepted books. Theres also the fact that scripture tells women to cover their heads because of angels (which dupes a lot of people but is accepted worldwide in Corinthians), that Jude AND 2 Peter specifically mentioned the chained angels (keep in mind that Satan is obviously not one of them, as he roams the earth to and fro, so who else could they be and for what major sin?), and that the term "sons of God" in Hebrew literature is always angels, bottom line. So Genesis already tells you.

Theres nothing in Enoch, THAT I KNOW OF YET, that contradicts scripture, but lots of it further confirms and establishes scripture. Im only on chapter 16, but I'll try to keep updates. Keep in mind that Im not trying to start some cult or anything, you certainly dont need Enoch to know the truth as Genesis-Revelation is complete truth regardless, and having the book on hand or not, you need the blood of Yshua the Messiah of YHWH to be saved. I just thought Id share with THIS particular forum cause thats the type of stuff peshitta.org/forum was made for! <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: -->
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#19
Leviticus 16:

And Aaron shall present the bullock of the sin-offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself, and for his house.

7 And he shall take the two goats, and set them before Jehovah at the door of the tent of meeting.

8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for Jehovah, and the other lot for Azazel.

9 And Aaron shall present the goat upon which the lot fell for Jehovah, and offer him for a sin-offering.

10 But the goat, on which the lot fell for Azazel, shall be set alive before Jehovah, to make atonement for him, to send him away for Azazel into the wilderness.

Most Bible translations cover up Azazel with "scapegoat", but some versions, like this American standard version, got it right. Who is Azazel? Why, he's...he's....the wicked angel mentioned in the book of Enoch who was bound and tied up in darkness until the day of judgement before he is cast into fire. He's the angel who.....

And Azazel taught men to make swords and knives and shields and breastplates; and made known to them the metals [of the earth] and the art of working them; and bracelets and ornaments; and the use of antimony and the beautifying of the eyelids; and all kinds of costly stones and all colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray and became corrupt in all their ways" Enoch 8:1-3

And more....

"'Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all
unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets
which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to
learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to
bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the
daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the
women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all
kinds of sins. And the women have borne giants, and the
whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and
unrighteousness.'" (Enoch 9:6b-10a)



So what did God command in response?

"And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azazel hand and
foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in
the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And
place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with
darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his
face that he may not see light. And on the day of the great
judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth
which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of
the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the
children of men may not perish through all the secret things
that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons.
And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works
that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.'"
(Enoch 10:4-9)

Allright, I think Ive preached this enough, but now that you know even LEVITICUS mentions Azazel...*shrugs*
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#20
Hi RunGold

I've learned that it is impossible to make someone change minds especially in forums.
I know so much or more humbly said, I doubt about so much, that I learn each day new things.

Whenever I would tell some one about it, they immediately reject it. It takes lots of energy to 'convert' somebody to a new paradigma. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

So, I am learning to enjoy the personal quest to knowledge. After all, the law of magnetics will be in effet. The people get attracted to you since you share a way of thinking.
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#21
About genesis 18, where the three men appear to abraham. In verse 1 it saids 'and the lord revealed himself to him(abraham).Many people believe the three men was actually the Lord God revealing himself to abraham, not three angels, so it depends which interpretation you believe in.
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#22
rungold315 Wrote:But Jude quoting Enoch isnt the only reason why I believe Enoch is special. Its found in the DSS, so we know its ancient and was found with our other accepted books. Theres also the fact that scripture tells women to cover their heads because of angels (which dupes a lot of people but is accepted worldwide in Corinthians), that Jude AND 2 Peter specifically mentioned the chained angels (keep in mind that Satan is obviously not one of them, as he roams the earth to and fro, so who else could they be and for what major sin?), and that the term "sons of God" in Hebrew literature is always angels, bottom line. So Genesis already tells you.
i did not mean to invalidate your position, but i guess that anyone can come along and just say "those are not valid indications" and give examples of other books (like i did with shepherd of hermas, which was considered canon by many for quite a while back in the 3rd/4th century).
Quote:I just thought Id share with THIS particular forum cause thats the type of stuff peshitta.org/forum was made for!
i hope no one will take this the wrong way, but personally i had the impression this is more of a ACoE gathering than anything else. "Outsiders" like myself are wondering why certain manuscripts get less attention, and usually the ultimate manuscript test is Heb. 2:9. That sounds more like "i'm right so you're wrong" than "i want the truth" to me. Also, all the greek gets thrown together, but if there is another aramaic mauscript, everyone makes sure no one gets the idea to group together those.

rungold, you certainly made me to take a good look at enoch. i might even read it. Still i'd like a sure way of how to establish a canon :-).
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#23
distazo Wrote:Hi RunGold

I've learned that it is impossible to make someone change minds especially in forums.
I know so much or more humbly said, I doubt about so much, that I learn each day new things.

Whenever I would tell some one about it, they immediately reject it. It takes lots of energy to 'convert' somebody to a new paradigma. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

So, I am learning to enjoy the personal quest to knowledge. After all, the law of magnetics will be in effet. The people get attracted to you since you share a way of thinking.

Its not a way of thinking that Ive been showing since I posted my thread. Ive provided real legit proofs. This isnt philosophy, or "expanding of the mind" by twisting the same scriptures in different ways to mean something else. I mean, I just thought I had really awesome points until about an hour ago. Then I discovered the true rendering of Leviticus 16, and man....if you arent convinced by now, then you're right, Distazo, there just is no changing their mind.

How many people saw Yshua with their own two eyes doing miracles and still they wouldnt believe? But who can blame them? It might appear as if im bringing a new doctrine or adding to the word of God like Revelation warns about...but Im not, I mean, Enoch already existed long long ago as inspired scripture. And even saying that, Im still shaky about it- its hard to make an official declaration that THE BOOK OF ENOCH IS UNDOUBTEDLY TRUE WORDS OF GOD, but thats what all the facts are adding up to be in my mind. My last obstacle is simply finishing the book, which I will start on doing as soon as Im done posting this.

P.S. "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." Matthew 22:29. -in references to men and angels

I dont have the verse on hand with me now (but promise to give later), and this timed public library computer only gives me 1:31 seconds from here to finish, BUT....Enoch already said that men would become like the sons of God upon death. Seems like the Jews AND Yeshua already knew of Enoch's scriptures, eh?
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#24
sean Wrote:About genesis 18, where the three men appear to abraham. In verse 1 it saids 'and the lord revealed himself to him(abraham).Many people believe the three men was actually the Lord God revealing himself to abraham, not three angels, so it depends which interpretation you believe in.
i always wonder on how people can get so worked up on that passage, when it very clearly states it was God and two angels. it's the only thing that makes sense.


Quote:I have an idea on how to establish a canon, it is to look at the Books recognized by the Church of Jerusalem for the Old Testament (this would be the recognized 22 book Jewish canon used by the Assyrian Church of the East which was under Queen Helena of Adiabene at the time). The books used in the west like Judith and the books of maccabees were only canonized in the Western Church in the middle ages as a reaction to the schism of protestantism which was throwing out books (ie: Luther wanting the Book of James out). The Ethiopians differ in everything from everyone else in both their NT and OT canon, and since there is safety in counsel from many as Proverbs say, I will stick to the counsel of the entire Apostolic Church which does not consider Enoch canonical.
Rafa, (i am a little confused, are we talking about the old or the new testament?) Interesting approach, but what makes this more valid than any other approach? Did God define how we are to define a canon? Why can't there be any more books be added (Also, keep in mind, Luther wanted to throw out jude and james, but he did not!)? Also, your idea of the counsel of many opposes me. After all, that'd mean we all have to become catholic, muslim or atheist, as these are the largest groups of people in general agreement on this planet. To stay with Solomon,

Ecc 7:28 Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.
One man among a thousand being wise. Not hundreds. Not the majority.

And, how i would love to quote it, but i can't find it, Jesus also mentionned something in the nature of, just because there is a big majority for somethig doesn't make it right.
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#25
P.S. "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." Matthew 22:29. -in references to men and angels

I dont have the verse on hand with me now (but promise to give later), and this timed public library computer only gives me 1:31 seconds from here to finish, BUT....Enoch already said that men would become like the sons of God upon death. Seems like the Jews AND Yeshua already knew of Enoch's scriptures, eh?[/quote]

Because I promised I would...

Enoch chapter 50...

1In those days shall the earth deliver up from her womb, and hell deliver up from hers, that which it has received; and destruction shall restore that which it owes.

2He shall select the righteous and holy from among them; for the day of their salvation has approached.

3And in those days shall the Elect One sit upon his throne, while every secret of intellectual wisdom shall proceed from his mouth, for the Lord of spirits has gifted and glorified him.

4In those days the mountains shall skip like rams, and the hills shall leap like young sheep satiated with milk; and all the righteous shall become like angels in heaven.
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#26
If Yeshu knew Enoch, this is an ultimate reference since the notion that men will become like angels, is not in in the Torah, but in Enoch.

Very interesting indeed.
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#27
Let's look at luke 20-29-36 ' now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife and died without children. And the second took her for his wife and this one died without children. And then again the third took her and likewise also the seven of them. And they died and did not leave children. And in the end, the woman died also. Therefore in the ressurection whose wife will she be the wife of, for seven of them married her?
Yeshua said to them' The sons of this world marry women and women are given to men. But those who of that world are worthy of the resurrection, that is from the dead, do not marry women nor women given to men. For neither are they able to die again, for they are as the messengers (angels). And sons are of Elohim because they are sons of the resurrection.

What was Yeshua saying, that men and women that make it into heaven, will be sexless like the angels, they will neither marry nor have children anymore. The whole bible supports itself, there are no contradictions in the bible !!!!!
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#28
Dear family in our Moran,Alaha,and Makydoneh Yashua Msheekha,Berek Alaha! As I have posted on a couple of other occasions on my believing and knowing 1 Enoch to be truely an inspired book worthy of the canon,this almost took place as so many of the early church Fathers attested to its canonicity and it clearly refers to our Lord time and time again. It is an apocolyptic work on par with Daniel,the Aopcolypse of John,ect.The best current English translation from the Ethiopic(Geez)that was translated from the original Aramaic as it was known to have been written originally in Aramaic is the translation by George Nickelsberg and James Vanderkam.The whole premise and context of 1 Enoch blooms from Genesis chpt 6 besides St.Jude alluding to it and our Lord stating he saw Satan cast down from Heaven like lightening.Nephilim actually translates into the aborted ones,those cast out.It is truely a frightening scenario but we are protected by the Lord as His faithful disciples purchased with His precious blood and living as the members of the body of Christ here on earth.The Nephilim,the descendents of the fallen angels who took unto themselves human wives,produced horrific progeny who instructed mankind in the black arts of sorcery,necromancy,divination,warfare,the construction of weapons,ect and women in the art of makeup,jewelery,and to make themselves all the more sensual in appearance is what caused mankind to fall into the horrible corrupt ways which spread and corrupted all of mankind.It is said that the Nephilim also became cannabalistic.It was because of there corrupting the world that Maryah decided to destroy the earth and all living creatures upon it as the Nephilim also corrupted animals and performed atrocoties with and against animals ontop of the horrible violent,decadent and sexual atrocoties against men and instructing mankind in these horrific acts.Only Noah and his wife and sons and there daughters were chosen to be saved because of Noahs holiness as well as pairs of all living creatures to repopulate the earth.We are also taught from scripture that there were still Nephilim after the flood.What I was getting at was tat the ancient Ethiopian Orthodox church,one of the oldest of the Oriental Orthodox churches together with the Syrian-Syrian Malankara Orthodox,Armenian Orthodox,Coptic Orthodox and Eretrian Orthodox together with the Church of the East constitute the most ancient Christian churches who have been preserved by the grace of the Ruach Ha Kodesh the original semitic,Judao-Christian spirituality,mysticism,liturgy and praxis of the original mother church of Jerusalem which then shifted to Antioch,Eddessa,Abdiene,Celucia Ctisphon for the Syrian church and Etchmeadzin for the Armenian church and Alexandria for the Coptic and Ethiopain curch although Ethiopia and Eretria had ties going all the way back to Menelik,the son of Solomon and the queen of Sheeba which very solid church trad brought back the Ark of the covenent to Ethiopia where it is to this day.Only the Ethiopian church has 1 enoch in its biblical canon as well as 1 and 2nd Jubilees which also deals with this subject matter.What I'm getting to is that there is another very rare book translated by Budge called the book of the Mysteries of Heaven and Earth.I highly recommend this very interesting work to all who are interested in 1 Enoch as it is an ancient Ethiopian work directly connected with 1 Enoch which was revealed to an Ethiopian priest-mystic named Abouna Bakhaylah Mikael Zosimas.It deals with the creation and what transpired with the Nephilim.It is available through Ibis press and is very,very interesting reading ecspecially for those who believe 1enoch to be truely scripture and canonical which I have always held.This is the last translation finished by E A Wallis Budge who was a very prolific translator,not only of the Egyptian book of the dead but also the Coptic Orthodox Paradise of the Fathers which is a wonderful collection of wise spirit filled teachings of the ancient monastic Coptic Fathers,but also works on the ancient Church of the East and many other great works.All interested in 1 Enoch should aquire a copy of the Book of the Mysteries of Heaven and Earth.In Yashua,D.Michael.
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