04-11-2011, 09:48 AM
billman Wrote:Hi Rafa,
Thanks for the response...and let me say, perhaps this could become a new thread as it no longer really pertains to the Pericope Adulterae. But, Rafa, what I was trying to ask was when does a valid church slide so far away that it can no longer be considered a church? In the examples you gave (Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc....) I would argue, and I think many others as well, is that they NEVER were a valid church to begin with, so there was nothing for them to "degenerate" from. Of those types of churches, sadly I agree that there are far too many examples. But what I wanted to know, are there any examples from history of an Apostolic church deteriorating to the point that it was no longer considered a true church. I guess the basic question I am asking is "When must one leave a church?" If all churches are a mixture of truth and error, how much error does one tolerate before they have to leave? Just to give you one example: I currently live in Germany and one of the main churches here is the EKD, Evangelische Kirche Deutschland, the "Lutheran" church. They ordain both women and homosexuals. They seem to also have a love of all things "new age" and the local church here just today sponsored a class on meditative dance, whatever that is. Valid church? (Just as a side note, last year the head bishop had to resign because she (yes, she) ran a red light and got busted for driving while intoxicated. Not that we can judge an entire church based on one sinful person's actions, of course, just thought you might be interested.) I am not a member of this particular church by the way, only curious as to people's thoughts on whether someone in this church has an obligation to stay or go.
Keith
G'day mate,
I think that a church ceases from being a church when valid Apostolic succession no longer pertains to the church in question. It is rather dangerous though to judge if they are excluded from being part of the mystical body of Christ. Do they cease being a group of believers? Depends on their deeds, If they are rolling around on the floor and howling or partaking in Holy laughter then it is safe to assume that these people have nothing to do with Christ. If the church is ordaining homosexuals then it is safe to say they are not working with the Spirit of God but rather the spirit of disobedience.
St Paul warned that in the end times people will heap up teachers for themselves, to scratch their itching ears, this explicitly reiterates that we cannot become leaders of a church without AUTHORITY that comes from God through the laying of the hands. Sadly, due to the fallacy of sola scriptura, people are interpreting scripture as they see fit, this is the direct result of the reformation.