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John 1 opening: Possible interpretation?
#1
Aramaic, I have learned, has unique idioms.

In James 1:4, it says "Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything,? or ?But let patience have her perfect work...? In this verse, patience is given a personality. It is referred to as a she. Now no one would believe that this verse in any way is implying that patience is an actual person, divine or otherwise. It is just a figure of speech, giving personality to a concept or set of ideas.

Another example is Proverbs 1:20. "Wisdom cries out in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares... in the gateways of the city she makes her speech.? Here wisdom is given a personality, a female one, and it is even implied that she is given movement and a voice in the rest of the passage.

So is the opening of John chapter one also an example of the use of such figures of speech?

?[1] In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God and the Word was God. [2]He existed in the beginning with God. [3] God created everything through him.? John chapter 1 (New Living Translation).

The Word in the beginning - There is no timeline on the existence of the soul; it is eternal. Our souls were not created at a certain point in time like our human form - they were imparted unto man after he was created. Our souls were there in the beginning because in the beginning they were still in God before he breathed His spirit or breath of life unto man. Humanity was not there at the beginning but our true selves (our souls) were because they had not yet ?left?. So, the Word [Jesus] was with God and was God in the beginning, but it also applies to us. Does anyone agree?

God created everything through His Word. It does not say in Genesis that the commands of God were fulfilled or executed by Christ when He created the Universe. So as I interpret it, ?he? and ?him? is the Word given a personality in a figurative sense. Everything was created or fulfilled with through the Word. The Word is the miltha, the way in which God promulgates His will.

After the section concerning John the Baptist we have:

?So the Word became flesh and made his home among us.? John 1:14 (New Living Translation).
I believe this verse specifically applies to Jesus. Doesn?t this mean that God?s miltha is flesh instead of a burning bush, etc.? In the prophesies about Jesus Christ we hear that God said he would ?put his words in his [Jesus?] mouth?. (Interestingly, in Islam Jesus is revered as ?Kalimatullah? meaning a word from God.)

I do not believe in the Trinity, nor do I believe that Jesus was the totality of God existing in one human form. God is omnipotent and omnipresent, He also said that we cannot see Him in Exodus. God is too vast to fit in one person and too beautiful to describe or fathom. Jesus was God?s miltha but not the totality of God Himself. If he was, why did He pray to God? So to me, ?the Word became flesh? does not mean that God manifested Himself totally as Jesus. The material form is limitation, God sees all, knows all and is omnipresent because He is not localised in one form.

Also, can ?the Word became flesh? also apply in a general sense to the fulfilment of God?s command? Just as He said, ?Let there be light,? and there was light, so did He call us all to be. So ?the Word became flesh? = the Word is fulfilled? ?The Word became light? = the Word is fulfilled?
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#2
there is a lot of diversity in the possible interpretation of texts. Yet, i do not agree with your interpretation, not because it is wrong in itself, but because it lacks harmony with the rest of the bible. You said God said in exodus we cannot see him. That is not true. He said no one can see him and live, but that does not mean it is impossible, it simply means it's quite bad for your health (Moses did still see his back after that). John DID however say that God cannot be seen at all, and has never been seen, neither by Hagar (Gen 16:7-13), nor by Abraham (Gen 18-19:1), Jacob (Genesis 32:28+Hosea 12:3-5), Moses (Exodus 33:11), Joshua (Joshua 5:13-6:2), Gideon (Judges 6:11-23), Manoah (Judges 13:2-22), Isaiah (Isaiah 6:5), Job (Job 42:5). None of these saw God, yet they saw him. Look at these NT verses:
John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.")
Now, what did those people see? The answer is simple, yet they saw him:
John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Some more:
1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

And the conterpart:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Heb 1:3 Who [Jesus] being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

In the Bible, it is quite clear: The omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal God is not only sovereign, but also inpercievable and inexperiencable to creation in any way. God can't be seen, heard, felt, smelled, thought of, etc.
However, because God wanted to communicate with his creation, he deviced revelations that can be percieved by creation. Some are reserved to the domain of the angels (that one also came down to Sinai and talked to Moses) whereas others are specifically aimed at humans, usually serving a specific purpose (in a way, any kind of divine intervention is a revelation of a small aspect of his being), like the bush, the LORD of heaven on Sinai, the Angel of the LORD, the man that appeared to Abraham, fire, smoke, a cloud, living water, light, love, YHWH, etc.
So, God, in the OT, revealed himself in many ways, at many occasions. Yet, all of these revelations were lacking some of the feats of the human domain. Thus the communication between God and men was somewhat imperfect. To have more effective communication with humans, God had to reveal himself in a revelation that encompasses all of the complexities of the human race. He needed a compatible interface, a mediator. A perfect interface to interact with humans is a human. This is who Jesus is. That is why the Bible says:
Heb 1:1-4 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Now, this Jesus was a man in every sense of the word, including the limitations, else he could not be an effective mediator. This is what incarnation is all about. But, since his purpose was to communicate the omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal creator, he is also the highest revelation of that God, in the best possible and most effective way to the human domain. That is why he can be both servant and master, lamb and lion, God and man, saviour and sacrifice. In Jesus, we find not only the revelation of the one beyond creation, but also the perfect revelation in creation.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
That is why Christ can be both brother and father. If he only revealed himself as sovereign, we could not connect to him, and only fear him. If he only revealed himself as servant, we could not know his endless mercy and power. That is why in Christ we find not only God in sovereignty, but also God with us. His behaviour as a human is an example of what happens to a human when God dwells within him. His behaviour as God is an example of his love and mercy.

Now, there is a lot more to it, but this is an outline that you will feell continuously confirmed throughout the Bible. It is impossible to refute.

Jesus is Yahweh:
Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Mar 11:9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: (Ps. 118:26)
Joh 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. (Is. 40:3-5)
Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? (Is. 53:1)
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Joel 2:32) ->Yahweh
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. ->Jesus

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


Jesus is Father:
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Jesus is God:
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Joh 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, from among whom Christ appeared in the flesh, who is God over all, to whom are due praises and thanksgiving, for ever and ever. Amen.
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Joh 1:1+14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


Jesus is Lord:
1Corinthians 12:3 - Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Joh 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Php 2:9-11 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


To sum it up. Jesus is the highest revelation of God humans will ever beable to percieve.
Jesus is the one true God of the Bible.
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#3
To be fair, i will give a response to your original post in a more direct fashion.
Quote:In James 1:4, it says "Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything,? or ?But let patience have her perfect work...? In this verse, patience is given a personality. It is referred to as a she. Now no one would believe that this verse in any way is implying that patience is an actual person, divine or otherwise. It is just a figure of speech, giving personality to a concept or set of ideas.
An article does not imply personality. Very many languages aside from english use gender-specific articles for things that do not have personality.


Quote:So is the opening of John chapter one also an example of the use of such figures of speech?

?[1] In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God and the Word was God. [2]He existed in the beginning with God. [3] God created everything through him.? John chapter 1 (New Living Translation).
if you are saying the male article does not imply personality, this is possible, but the rest of the grammar has to be looked at, too.

Quote:The Word in the beginning - There is no timeline on the existence of the soul; it is eternal. Our souls were not created at a certain point in time like our human form - they were imparted unto man after he was created. Our souls were there in the beginning because in the beginning they were still in God before he breathed His spirit or breath of life unto man. Humanity was not there at the beginning but our true selves (our souls) were because they had not yet ?left?. So, the Word [Jesus] was with God and was God in the beginning, but it also applies to us. Does anyone agree?
No. Also, souls are not eternal in the sense that God is eternal. It has a beginning, (earliest the the 6th day), and they will have an end (after time though). All things will cease to exist, even souls.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Likewise, before creation, before the beginning, God was the only thing that existed.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Note: in the beginning is at the moment of creation. Before that, God was only God. The Word is the vehicle of creation, the tool, the container.

Quote:God created everything through His Word. It does not say in Genesis that the commands of God were fulfilled or executed by Christ when He created the Universe. So as I interpret it, ?he? and ?him? is the Word given a personality in a figurative sense. Everything was created or fulfilled with through the Word. The Word is the miltha, the way in which God promulgates His will.
i agree.

Quote:?So the Word became flesh and made his home among us.? John 1:14 (New Living Translation).
I believe this verse specifically applies to Jesus. Doesn?t this mean that God?s miltha is flesh instead of a burning bush, etc.? In the prophesies about Jesus Christ we hear that God said he would ?put his words in his [Jesus?] mouth?. (Interestingly, in Islam Jesus is revered as ?Kalimatullah? meaning a word from God.)

I do not believe in the Trinity, nor do I believe that Jesus was the totality of God existing in one human form. God is omnipotent and omnipresent, He also said that we cannot see Him in Exodus. God is too vast to fit in one person and too beautiful to describe or fathom. Jesus was God?s miltha but not the totality of God Himself. If he was, why did He pray to God? So to me, ?the Word became flesh? does not mean that God manifested Himself totally as Jesus. The material form is limitation, God sees all, knows all and is omnipresent because He is not localised in one form.
i agree. Though the most important aspect to me is that he is the totality of God to us as ignorant humans, as we cannot percive the totality of God, and Jesus is the best description thereof.

Quote:Also, can ?the Word became flesh? also apply in a general sense to the fulfilment of God?s command? Just as He said, ?Let there be light,? and there was light, so did He call us all to be. So ?the Word became flesh? = the Word is fulfilled? ?The Word became light? = the Word is fulfilled?
i am not sure what you are getting at. It may be you mean that when God created light, he immediately revealed himself therein. This is true in many aspects, such as love, fire, water, ... (you cannot define God, but he makes himself definable in creation). But i don't think that is what you were saying (?).
Jesus is the one true God of the Bible.
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#4
Peace and Greetings Andrej,

Quote:i agree. Though the most important aspect to me is that he is the totality of God to us as ignorant humans, as we cannot percive the totality of God, and Jesus is the best description thereof.

I agree that we cannot perceive the totality of God, but how can Jesus be God if he was tempted?

Shlama.
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#5
Jesus and his Father are not the same person. But trinity is always a hot item, garantueed for long battles. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
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#6
I'd have to disagree with this interpretation, as the interpretative milieu of Scripture is the totality of Scripture and the NT is a Christian document. The doctrine of the Logos is a part of universal Christendom, and the reinterpretation offered herein does violence to it. As For Christ being tempted, see Heb 4.15 and James 1.13; temptation is simply to offer possibilities, and Christ did have a human nature.
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#7
Jesus is God and was God and was fully man at the same time, to deny this is heretical.
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#8
Beloved Anthea in Yashua,Berek Alaha! It is my humble responsibility to share with you that our Lord,Alaha and Makydoneh Yashua Msheekha is truely God-Alaha-and of one identical essence and one with the Father.The entire introduction of the Gospel of John points to this miracle.Our Lord is both fully Divine,sharing His Divine nature with the father and His human nature with us.What is not assumed is not redeemed so He took upon Himself in his perfect Divinity and eternal oneness with the Father ,Maryah our complete human nature,alike us in every way except for sin in order to accomplish for us what was impossible through the law which was bequeathed to us so we could prepare for His glorious coming.It is one of the countless miracles of the incarnation that the omnipresent God,who is the all through whom we all live and move and have our being to become incarnate in the womb of the virgin Mary.The infinite,uncontainable one true God became man and He whom the universe is but a thrown for His Divine majesty Himself resided in te womb of the virgin with His oneness with the Father being perfectly intact at all times.His human will was made to alighn so perfectly with the Divine will that He was able to create creation anew in renewing mankind from the fall of Adam,Himself becoming the new Adam and restoring humanity with Almighty God.He is perfectly God,God the Son,God the word,perfectly one with the Father and te creative principal of God the Father as all things were by His hand and without Him not even one single thing existed of all that existed.This is all very obvious from the opening chapter of John and through literally countless other passages from the Holy Gospels showing His complete Divinity and oneness with Maryah the Father.Ena na,in Aramaic means I am,te very name of God the Father from the burning bush which was nonother than our Lord,God and Saviour Yashua.I and the Father are one.You have seen me so you have seen the Father.Christ is God the Father and Holy Spirit incarnate in the flesh.This is how much God has loved and loves us that He put on the flesh of Adam and tabernacled amongst us to restore the way to Paradise with him.Through his taking upon himself the sins of mankind and offering himself up on the cross once and for all for our redemption is the single most glorious event in the history of man through his glorious ressurection by which he raised us all who believe in him to eternal life with him,his eternal Father and /Ruach Ha Kodesh-Holy Spirit.Every word of not only the Holy Gospels but also the rest of te New Testament and every word and utterance from the Old Testament also speak completely of this wonderful miracle of divine love.God became man so that the nature of humanity might be transformed into God in Christ.The word of God became flesh so that in Him humanity might be transformed into divinity and the nature of humanity renewed.God became man so that man might become God.Every word and breath of the Holy Gospels and new Testament-the very word of God explains this as well as every word from the Old Testament also.I will pray for you to recieve the light and life which is our Mari,Alaha and Makydoneh Yashua Msheekha.Its all about love.Without divine love we are nothing.Everything God does is completely a matter of love from the beginning to the end.God is love and he who abides in Love abides in God and he who abides on God abides in Love.Berek Alaha my brother.
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