"MarYah deception" ???

[Andrej]

Thank you Andrej for that indepth study. However for me questions remain. Who was talking from heaven after Jesus was baptized? After His transfiguration? This would mean in essence that "god" was talking to and about "HIMSELF", which in my mind makes no sense since HE never did so before but talked to the prophets before.

You'll notice that satan always says, if you are the son of "god" etc. Surely satan knew the son and the FATHER before the son came to earth because it was through/by (it's listed both ways) the son that all things were made, including satan.

Jesus cried out "into your hands I commit my spirit". His spirit would have to be "God's" spirit if he were "god" So was he committing His spirit back to Himself?

And lastly because I worked alte and I'm exhausted. "Jesus" said , "esteem me as I was esteemed "with" YOU before the creation of the earth". This shows that "Jesus" and the FATHER were together before the creation of the earth, however not that he was the FATHER.

For the rest of the the epeople that posted, thank you for you time however I posted only to Andrej as he seems out of the group, the least likely to have a contentious and argumentative spirit. If I am wrong, between his and my conversation, perhaps he will be able to show me what you cannot so I ask that you allow us to continue in peace without the distractions of "personalities" getting in the way. As it stands right now, I won't bother with other posters on this issue anyway so at least do not clutter the board with posts that won't be answered.

Again thanks Andrej, you are a man of your word and I salute you for that.

justalex

Your questions show that you understood much more than you seem to admit. Yet, i seem to have failed to make my point. i attempted to let scripture speak by itself as much as possible. But, sometimes, the most simplest of things require the most detailed of explanations. i believe that if i would have chosen my words more precisely, i would have made my point. i will attempt to fill in the gaps i may have left.

When Jesus speaks, he sometime speaks exclusively as a human, and sometimes exclusively as God. When he says "I" followed by a reference / contrast to the father, it usually refers to his human nature. When he says "I" and does not refer to the father, it may refer to his human or his divine nature. Further, "son of man" is usually the human, "son of God" (or most cases where "son" only is used to refer to Christ) may refer to Jesus before his birth. In a manner of speaking, all revelation of God may be referred to as "son", depending on what aspect of that revelation is to be portrayed. But note that the only begotten son is the human, born of Mary.
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Of course the father is not equal to the son, but the son is the most you will ever be able to percieve of the father. To us humans, from our perspective, the Son is the Father. If we llok towards the Father, we see the Son. He is the mediator.


Let me expalin in a different manner (i will not use a lot of scripture right now, but if you want proof for anything, ask for it. Please also use your God-given logic.):
At the moment of creation, before time, before space, before matter, before even heaven itself existed, there was the word. This word is the very first, very highest, very purest and most primary revelation of God. But, before that moment of creation, there was nothing. Nothing but God. God unpercieved, unrevealed, unseen, invisible, unknown, incomprehensible, untouchable, unreachable, undefinable. Philosophically, one could speak of the "absolute origin". Biblically, this is "I AM", self-existent, Hayyah, Yahweh. This is what Jesus referred to as the "Father", and what he himself related to in his speeches (note: many times in the Bible, God takes on the role of a father, like the Father of israel, but those are not references to the presented concept, but simply further revelations of God).
There was a time when everything was nothing but God. Since this singularity, you may say, had no reference point (creation), it, by our understanding, could not be set apart by any definition.
God is good and holy, but God cannot be percieved as good or holy when nothing but himself exists, when there is no evil, or no "less good/holy" to set him apart from. The same counts for all other attributes of God. As he was the only thing in existence, there was no way to define him. When God began creation, at the very moment of creation (the moment called the beginning), he was revealed as the word (or idea, mind, ...).
When he created light and sepreated it from the darkenss, he became light. When he created love and seperated it from fear, he became love. When he created life and seperated it from death, he became life. When he created truth, he separated it from the lies and became truth. In this manner, God revealed himself in his own creation. As the ambition of creation was man, from the very beginning of creation, he had it in mind to create man, and he had it in mind that he will one day reveal himself as man. In order to accomplish that, the word became flesh. From this perspective, Jesus was, through his human nature, referring to himself as the word, in relation to the father.

But since he was revealed in human form, he was "made a little lower than the angels" (Heb. 2:9). He became a man. But God is not a man, so the man Jesus had to submit to God. As God reveals himself in creation, that revelation is part of creation. As it is part of creation, it is submitted to the Father. As part of creation, that revelation is also limited. As Christ was also a man, part of creation, and submitted to the Father, he had to do his part as part of creation. He had to be what man is supposed to be. That is how he revealed himself as the perfect human. He was as we are supposed to be. So, in Christ, there were two things indivisibly revealed: The Father (the origin reaching to creation, or God reaching to man), and the Son (creation reaching to the origin, or man reaching to God). In Jesus, God is percieved, revealed, seen, visible, known, comprehensible, touchable, reachable, definable.

This should not be hard to understand, as the exact same thing happens to us in reverse. We, as humans, when we receive the Holy Ghost, We have the spirit of God within us. But, that spirit works twofold. In one way, it will reveal the divine power of God and allow us to do all kinds of miraculous things and reveal the gifts of the spirit. In another way, it will humble us, and draw us to repentance, and bring forth the fruits of the spirit.

The two natures are as the oil and flour in the sacrificial bread. Just as you cannot divide the oil from the flour, you cannot divide the human Jesus from God. It is the mystery of godliness.

This is the only way to understand "contradictions" like these:
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

In John 6:46, Jesus speaks as man. He refers to the fact that the Father is beyond any human perception. In John 14:9, he speaks as God. He refers to the fact that he is the highest revelation of God possibly percievable. There are literally hundreds of such examples.

Another kind of example is this:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Jesus referred to the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. As Jesus is the highest revelation of God, his name is also the highest to us ("Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)).

To sum it up (i tried to express this before and failed):
Whenever you read of or about Christ, you must ask: Is he speaking as the eternal God, or is he speaking as the perfectly submit and humble human? With this in mind, all makes sense.

i realized i once said that Jesus is clearly identified as YHWH, even without the peshitta. i will give one crystal clear example (there are many) so i will have not said vain words:
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (YHWH) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

If the trinity was eternally three persons, then did the concept of numbers coexist with the trinity from the beginning? Did the complex concept of personality exist from the beginning? What about submission, relation, ...? Was God always revealed?
Mere logic will show this to be wrong. Before the beginning, there was nothing but God undefinable. At the beginning, there was the Word, which is God.

Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

After having said all this, i should add that there is always moe to know about God, and that all we have dealt with here is merely the literal, logical, or theoretical ground. There is so much more about him. We need to know him on a personal level, not only on a theoretical level. Though i am certain that all the apostles would have agreed with at least most i said, they never bothered to say it in such a way, as they were much more concerned with the spirit than with facts. Relationship over theology. Understanding is worthless if you do not have a genuine and loving relationship with Jesus. i pray that God will reveal himself to anyone reading this with an open heart, anyone not building his faith on anything outside of the Bible.

Thank you Andrej for that indepth study. However for me questions remain. Who was talking from heaven after Jesus was baptized? After His transfiguration? This would mean in essence that "god" was talking to and about "HIMSELF", which in my mind makes no sense since HE never did so before but talked to the prophets before.

God was talking about the most perfect of all humans, his Son. Yet, God was also revealed in Jesus. God can reveal himself in many ways at once. When the saints received the Holy Spirit at the day of pentecost, he was revealed as tongues of fire, through the gift of tongues and in the hearts of the believers. Yet, there was only one God. In everything God created, he has a way of revealing himself. Yet, he does not seem to think in dimensions as we do, but rather in concepts.
For the sake of clarification, instead of saying Jesus had two natures, one may also say he had two personalities, though this is inaccurate, because these two personalities were entirely different things, and the only thing they had in common is the fact that they could refer to themselves as "I".

You'll notice that satan always says, if you are the son of "god" etc. Surely satan knew the son and the FATHER before the son came to earth because it was through/by (it's listed both ways) the son that all things were made, including satan.

Satan was tempting the human Jesus. It would not make sense to tempt God. But the human had to be tempted in every way. i don't believe that Satan truly comprehended who Jesus was (though he may have understood it partially). Even most of God's children nowadays don't understand that. it is the "mystery of godliness". Also, satan does not know the Father in the way you seem to propose. The revelation of God that is most natural to satan may be the one who sits upon the throne in heaven. But, even this is only a revelation of the Father, as the Bible asserts "heaven and earth shall pass away". It is not the eternally unknowable himself.

Jesus cried out "into your hands I commit my spirit". His spirit would have to be "God's" spirit if he were "god" So was he committing His spirit back to Himself?

He commited his human spirit to God, as we all will one day die, and our spirits will come to judgement. Jesus' role at the cross was almost entirely human, save for the fact that he was the perfect human, the God-man. Even here, he was still God. It was just not the focus.

Proof he was still YHWH:
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

"Jesus" said , "esteem me as I was esteemed "with" YOU before the creation of the earth". This shows that "Jesus" and the FATHER were together before the creation of the earth, however not that he was the FATHER.

This is one of the very toughest questions to me. Yet, i suppose, i can meld it with my concept of God far more simply than any trinitarian doctrine could. There are only about three or four cases (as far as i know, no certainty here) in the NT where the Son seems to refer to the revelation of God as a whole (meaning, all of God that is revealed in creation). This is one of these times. The Word (existing before the world), in a manner of speaking, is also the Son, or offspring, of God.
i should add, that i did not yet study this specific topic in detail, so my terminology may be quite wrong. i realize that the explanation i gave to this question is insuficcient, even if the approach was appropriate. Though, i thank God for letting me know i do not have all the answers. It is always good to have an incentive to seek even further revelation.