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"MarYah deception" ???
#61
soneroboricua Wrote:
Rafa Wrote:
Quote:So if He and His Father are one and the same (marya/maryah) the scriptures just do not bear out the same thing. Does anyone have an explanation of why "Jesus" would be prayihng to Himself or committing His spirit into His own hands?

The ACOE teaches that a certain separation exists between His humanity and His Divinity (ie: the ACOE holds a strictly Diophysite Christology) and also a certain degree of separation between the Divinity of the Word and that of the Father even though they are of the same essence (ie: no Arian or Sabellian heresy has ever been taught by the ACOE). He is not praying to himself as the Divine Qnuma of the Word, he is praying to his Father the first Divine Qnuma from which he was begotten from and was eternally with from the beginning, just as plain scripture says. Therefore there is no contradiction. If anybody from the ACOE wishes to correct me on anything please do.


Shlama Ahki Rafa,

Thank you for this information. It seems that "Alex" has issues accepting what the scriptures bear forth.

Shlama wBurkate


Is this an answer at all?

justalex
Reply
#62
justalex Wrote:I asked this question before and really got no answer so I'll just ask it again...

Why is it in the scriptures you do not find "Jesus" saying He is The FATHER but quite the opposite. He prays to His FATHER, He asks His FATHER to make the discples "one", He tells His FATHER "into your hands I commit my spirit, He even tells His disciples that They would not ask Him for anything but that they would ask The FATHER in His (Jesus') name etc... I'm sure if I could take the time to type all of the passages with similar sayings from "JESUS" Himself.

So if He and His Father are one and the same (marya/maryah) the scriptures just do not bear out the same thing. Does anyone have an explanation of why "Jesus" would be prayihng to Himself or committing His spirit into His own hands?

justalex

justalex Wrote:Does anyone have an explanation of why "Jesus" would be prayihng to Himself or committing His spirit into His own hands?

Well, scripture never say this. It plainly tells us that He prayed and commited his spirit to the Father.

justalex Wrote:Why is it in the scriptures you do not find "Jesus" saying He is The FATHER but quite the opposite

Here it is plainly:

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

justalex Wrote:So if He and His Father are one and the same (marya/maryah) the scriptures just do not bear out the same thing.

Scripture does bare record that they "... are one and the same (marya/maryah)" as you've worded it.

There is only ONE YHWH/YHVH deity. And, it is only by the thanks of Y'shu/Jesus informing us that YHWH is composition of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (Mat 28:19) that we have come to know and speak to YHWH as Father and as Son (Joh 1:18). It is also noted in script that He angered many by continuely calling YHWH his Father and referring to himself as his Son exclusively (Joh 8:23). By John's witness we have Y'shu (refered to as the Word) as being WITH YHWH Elohiym(plural) and declared also as YHWH Elohiym(plural) (John 1:1).

justalex Wrote:He prays to His FATHER, He asks His FATHER to make the discples "one", He tells His FATHER "into your hands I commit my spirit, He even tells His disciples that They would not ask Him for anything but that they would ask The FATHER in His (Jesus') name etc...

Your problems/questions seems to stem, IMO, from the lack of understanding concerning the composition of devine nature of YHWH(reverently refered to as mrya in the Peshitta text).

Please consider the following passages:

Gen 1:26-27, 3:22, 11:7, 18:1-5

Furthermore, as a tell all, tell all ...YHWH has said:

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

And we find in scripture Y'shu/Jesus receiving glory from ALL creation:

Rev 5:13. And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, AND ALL that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto HIM that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the LAMB for ever and ever. 14. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped HIM that liveth for ever and ever.


Peace in knowing Y'shu/Jesus
Peace in knowing Y'shu(Yeshu)/Jesus
Reply
#63
I decided to post this publically, even if stones will be thrown. This is intended as a direct answer to justalex's request. My view of the Godhead does not correspond with the orthodox/traditional view of the trinity. If anyone feels offended, please let me know in a civilized manner.
To be fair, I will tell you about my background, though it should not matter, as we are talking about scripture, not opinion. I grew up in an Oneness Pentecostal (also called ?Apostolic Pentecostal?) Church. i am a German, and i grew up here. i do not necessarily agree with all that is promoted as oneness theology, just as none of you agrees with all that is promoted as Trinitarian theology (nine persons anyone? : <!-- s:yell: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/yell.gif" alt=":yell:" title="Yell" /><!-- s:yell: --> ), so please don?t tell me what I believe. i do, however, find the foundations of strict monotheism inescapable. I have personally engaged in a deep, thorough, and prayerful search for the truth concerning God. I have always tried to hear all sides that claim to be based solely on scripture on the issues. Interestingly, I have found that many modern ?Trinitarian? theologians do not believe that there actually is a clear model of the Godhead in the Bible. I disagree.

Due to legth, i will upload the Word document to mediafire, which anyone can download. Unfortunately, i cannot attach .doc files to my post directly.
http://www.mediafire.com/?2oxo17on2lrf3bs
Jesus is the one true God of the Bible.
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#64
Shlama Ahki Rafa,

Thank you for this information. It seems that "Alex" has issues accepting what the scriptures bear forth.

Shlama wBurkate[/quote]


Is this an answer at all?

justalex[/quote]


It was thanking Rafa for the information he presented, He did although answer you, maybe it's just not the answer you were looking for unfortunately, as you again "seem" to have issue with what the scriptures bear.

Shlama wBurkate

SoneroBoricua
Reply
#65
soneroboricua Wrote:Shlama Ahki Rafa,

Thank you for this information. It seems that "Alex" has issues accepting what the scriptures bear forth.

Shlama wBurkate


Is this an answer at all?

justalex[/quote]


It was thanking Rafa for the information he presented, He did although answer you, maybe it's just not the answer you were looking for unfortunately, as you again "seem" to have issue with what the scriptures bear.

Shlama wBurkate

SoneroBoricua[/quote]


Yeah, unfortunately I'm not apt to accept doctrines and catechisms of the rcc... that's just something I have never been able to do, however you seem capable of swallowing EVERY doctrine that passes your way... I just stick to the scriptures, not doctrines that came 451 years later...

justalex
Reply
#66
whathell Wrote:
justalex Wrote:I asked this question before and really got no answer so I'll just ask it again...

Why is it in the scriptures you do not find "Jesus" saying He is The FATHER but quite the opposite. He prays to His FATHER, He asks His FATHER to make the discples "one", He tells His FATHER "into your hands I commit my spirit, He even tells His disciples that They would not ask Him for anything but that they would ask The FATHER in His (Jesus') name etc... I'm sure if I could take the time to type all of the passages with similar sayings from "JESUS" Himself.

So if He and His Father are one and the same (marya/maryah) the scriptures just do not bear out the same thing. Does anyone have an explanation of why "Jesus" would be prayihng to Himself or committing His spirit into His own hands?

justalex

justalex Wrote:Does anyone have an explanation of why "Jesus" would be prayihng to Himself or committing His spirit into His own hands?

Well, scripture never say this. It plainly tells us that He prayed and commited his spirit to the Father.

justalex Wrote:Why is it in the scriptures you do not find "Jesus" saying He is The FATHER but quite the opposite

Here it is plainly:

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

justalex Wrote:So if He and His Father are one and the same (marya/maryah) the scriptures just do not bear out the same thing.

Scripture does bare record that they "... are one and the same (marya/maryah)" as you've worded it.

There is only ONE YHWH/YHVH deity. And, it is only by the thanks of Y'shu/Jesus informing us that YHWH is composition of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (Mat 28:19) that we have come to know and speak to YHWH as Father and as Son (Joh 1:18). It is also noted in script that He angered many by continuely calling YHWH his Father and referring to himself as his Son exclusively (Joh 8:23). By John's witness we have Y'shu (refered to as the Word) as being WITH YHWH Elohiym(plural) and declared also as YHWH Elohiym(plural) (John 1:1).

justalex Wrote:He prays to His FATHER, He asks His FATHER to make the discples "one", He tells His FATHER "into your hands I commit my spirit, He even tells His disciples that They would not ask Him for anything but that they would ask The FATHER in His (Jesus') name etc...

Your problems/questions seems to stem, IMO, from the lack of understanding concerning the composition of devine nature of YHWH(reverently refered to as mrya in the Peshitta text).

Please consider the following passages:

Gen 1:26-27, 3:22, 11:7, 18:1-5

Furthermore, as a tell all, tell all ...YHWH has said:

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

And we find in scripture Y'shu/Jesus receiving glory from ALL creation:

Rev 5:13. And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, AND ALL that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto HIM that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the LAMB for ever and ever. 14. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped HIM that liveth for ever and ever.


Peace in knowing Y'shu/Jesus

Did you miss where YHWH receives the glory FIRST then "AND the LAMB"??? Clearly two separate entities... Have you not read where "Jesus" said "all things have been given into my hands" so yes He would receive blessings... Did you not know that "Jesus" had "glory" as of the only begotten Son of YHWH???

I'm guessing the answer to all the above is NO... and you still didn't answer the question... To whom did "Jesus" commit His NPhSh if He is YHWH??? HIMSELF???

justalex
Reply
#67
Yeah, unfortunately I'm not apt to accept doctrines and catechisms of the rcc... that's just something I have never been able to do, however you seem capable of swallowing EVERY doctrine that passes your way... I just stick to the scriptures, not doctrines that came 451 years later...

justalex[/quote]


Rafa summed this up quite nicely:

"If you don't go by what anybody else except your own understanding teaches what are you doing here wasting your time reading the scribal work of the church which preserved the vowel pointers with the correct meaning of the text ? I ask you...are you sure it's the Holy Spirit guiding your interpretation of what the scriptures say?"

Hmmm couldn't have said it any better myself, I do believe that the ACOE does not accept all the doctrines/catechisms of the rcc as well Alex(justice), getting edgy are we? Perhaps you should back away from your keyboard and make yourself a nice hot cup of tea and just relax. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Shlama wBurkate
Reply
#68
soneroboricua Wrote:Yeah, unfortunately I'm not apt to accept doctrines and catechisms of the rcc... that's just something I have never been able to do, however you seem capable of swallowing EVERY doctrine that passes your way... I just stick to the scriptures, not doctrines that came 451 years later...

justalex


Rafa summed this up quite nicely:

"If you don't go by what anybody else except your own understanding teaches what are you doing here wasting your time reading the scribal work of the church which preserved the vowel pointers with the correct meaning of the text ? I ask you...are you sure it's the Holy Spirit guiding your interpretation of what the scriptures say?"

Hmmm couldn't have said it any better myself, I do believe that the ACOE does not accept all the doctrines/catechisms of the rcc as well Alex(justice), getting edgy are we? Perhaps you should back away from your keyboard and make yourself a nice hot cup of tea and just relax. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Shlama wBurkate[/quote]


LOL... Really.. I suppose you just selectively read, wait, I know you just selectively read, so why ask. Why would I be edgy Sonero Boricua? You have yet to answer my question, all you do is parrot what someone else has said... do you even have a thought of your own?

So again... I don't follow rcc doctrines (of which that of Chalcedon 451 is one) research before you speak. I don't need tea, however a scriptural answer would do nicely, do you have one?

justalex
Reply
#69
Shlama Ahki,

My guess is you also selectively read when you missed the part of "all" ? The scriptures and answers have been in the multitudes here by many, so many to the point that I do not need to supply any as I have seen sufficient scriptures here myself, I do not have an issue or short coming about who Y'shua is, you do, becoming combative are we? Well now, that's the ah... justice I mean (Alex) I know all too well. Again you are wasting your time here if you lean on your own understanding, Rafa again quite eloquently summed it all up for you.

Shlama wBurkate

Sonero
Reply
#70
soneroboricua Wrote:Shlama Ahki,

My guess is you also selectively read when you missed the part of "all" ? The scriptures and answers have been in the multitudes here by many, so many to the point that I do not need to supply any as I have seen sufficient scriptures here myself, I do not have an issue or short coming about who Y'shua is, you do, becoming combative are we? Well now, that's the ah... justice I mean (Alex) I know all too well. Again you are wasting your time here if you lean on your own understanding, Rafa again quite eloquently summed it all up for you.

Shlama wBurkate

Sonero


Actually, no, they haven't. Rafa didn't give scripture, he gave Chalcedon 451 Christology fromthe rcc. You haven't given any perhaps becase there aren't any. You don't have to worry though, I don't concern myself with those with no answers.

Combative? Why would I be combative when I asked a simple enough question to wit, you haven't even attempted to answer? Are you looking for an argument? Of course you are. You would like to provoke me in some way yes? LOL Grow up. I asked the adults in this group a question, if you don't have an answer just say so a let it go.

Actually I AM wasting time on you. You have no answers except those fed to you. Then, that's not surprising.

justalex
Reply
#71
Shlama Ahki Rafa,

You said: "No need for "rcc doctrines"

Thank you once again for the clarification.


Shlama w Burkate
Reply
#72
Rafa Wrote:
Quote:So again... I don't follow rcc doctrines (of which that of Chalcedon 451 is one) research before you speak. I don't need tea, however a scriptural answer would do nicely, do you have one?

No need for "rcc doctrines"...

Every single Apostolic entity in the world accepts Nicea (and Constantinople I which came right after) these two councils show that you are in grave error in terms of Christology. Most conservative protestants accept the orthodoxy of the conclusions reached in these councils as well. Chalcedon clarifies the existence of two natures, but the christology you affirm (the same of the Arians) was solemnly condemned earlier by the entire Church in 325 A.D. (the Bishops of Seleukia-Ctesiphon, in 410 A.D.)


First I'm not Apostolic, so I don't follow Constantine's mandates. I am neither protestant, as there is nothing to protest nor orthodox. I follow the scripture, leave all of the various doctirnes of denominations with those denominations.

So in other words, you don't have any scriptures either to answer the questions posed. Well, that's fine if you don't just don't pretend that doctrines that came 451 years after MASHIACH and tells you something that He never said, is truth. Well, you can say it's truth for you, as that is what you accept, however I am more interested in finding scripture that says the same.

Thanks for your response.

justalex
Reply
#73
Shlama Ahki,

Alex(justice) stated:

"Actually, no, they haven't."

Then all those scriptures I've read and all the reply's towards you are sufficient enough for you? Then that is a personal problem.

" I asked the adults in this group a question"

Yes combative would fit you nicely here, your sarcasm let's it be known that you are.

Shlama wBurkate
Reply
#74
soneroboricua Wrote:Shlama Ahki,

Alex(justice) stated:

"Actually, no, they haven't."

Then all those scriptures I've read and all the reply's towards you are sufficient enough for you? Then that is a personal problem.

" I asked the adults in this group a question"

Yes combative would fit you nicely here, your sarcasm let's it be known that you are.

Shlama wBurkate


What sxcripture on this question has been given besides those given by whathell where he obviously missed where YHWH received glory and blessings first then the LAMB, completely separate entities? Were there more?

Yes I asked the adults a question... since you aren't attempting to answer the question, that group obviously doesn't mean you. Sarcasm? I made a statement, if you cannot handle that perhaps you should refrain from this discourse with me.

Anyway, I will await someone that actually has interest in answering the question as you obviously have none forthcoming.

Find your peace, I have mine.

justalex
Reply
#75
Shlama Ahki,

Yes sure Mr. godzjustice of Black Planet.com (Alex) you made a statement, a sarcastic statement non the less of which your combativeness is in clear view, call it what you want to but in the end it is what it is, point after point has been made to you yet you obviously don't get it, perhaps the reason you haven't received your answer is because of your unwillingness to accept what has been presented to you, and that is your prerogative, and again like Rafa kindly stated, why are you wasting your time here? I know I am not and am learning from these individuals here everyday, perhaps you should peruse a Muslim forum or website that would accommodate your ideology justly. We're all adults here, perhaps you should try acting like one.

Shlama wBurkate

Sonero
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