11-25-2010, 10:56 PM
Shlama Dave,
i've responded to your thoughts below.
no, i'm not suggesting Marye should be YHWH. the whole point was in showing the opposite - but you're confusing the matter, i think. i brought this up with relation to the other passage showing that YHWH refers to HIMSELF as Adonim, so that it CAN be used singularly. that was the point, nothing more. since it CAN be used in a singular sense, i was suggesting that the AN"K's usage of the "spelling" of MARYA / MARYE' could be evidence that it should have been understood singularly, in the Aramaic, as well. of course we can't totally know, but it is interesting that the LXX chose to render it singular, instead of plural.
seriously? i thought you were advocating that Marya means Lord-Yah? YHWH is His Name, however that should be pronounced, but Marya is not His Name, but instead, perhaps like Adon YHWH from the Hebrew, but let's be clear that it is not His Name, which is YHWH.
no doubt about that, thankfully. again, i was only showing that the AN"K does not appear to be as stringent in translating as it could be.
actually, to be fair, i've only yet to show thus to your satisfaction, as the above instance from Isaiah could be argued. and perhaps you are right -- i'm not against Marya = YHWH uncontestedly, to be clear. i just want to make sure from all points that it HAS to always mean that and that alone. i've personally yet to see evidence which is to my complete satisfaction. but we're all still learning, so no hard feelings, i hope!
ah, okay, thanks for the clarification of your intent. so in effect, using Psalms as evidence for or against it would be fruitless.
the point of my referencing was to show that again, the AN"K was not totally consistent in rendering the Hebrew completely accurately, and that should be taken into consideration. for some reason it chose to not render the Name in those instances. i'm not advocating that any one is the exact same meaning (and definitely not Adon and YHWH), just throwing out some evidence that should be considered in the whole matter, because i think people are really quick to be definitive in this topic one way or the other, but there are questions that still remain and need to be inspected.
yes, the tikkuney that i referred to are the emendations you speak of. i believe you can find them online as well.
well, i'm not entirely sure, obviously, that it is never any other. but i'm always open to correction and since i've been wrong most of my life, i wouldn't be surprised, but i need conclusive evidence that i've yet to really see.
blessings!
Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
i've responded to your thoughts below.
gbausc Wrote:Shlama Jeremy,
?And the Egyptians will I give into the hands of Adonim qasheh? (cruel lords) ; ?Marye? pronounced ?Maryay? is plural also (lords). Are you suggesting that YHWH will deliver the Egyptians unto YHWH? Is YHWH the cruel Master and the fierce King spoken of? If so, Adonim refers to YHWH and Maryay (plural) translates the plural Adonim with the most appropriate Aramaic word in the plural form, with identical meaning. If not, (and I cannot believe this does refer to YHWH), Maryay (plural) translates the plural Adonim with the most appropriate Aramaic word in the plural form with identical meaning. In either case, Maryay is not Marya. Maryay is a plural title, as is Adonim.
no, i'm not suggesting Marye should be YHWH. the whole point was in showing the opposite - but you're confusing the matter, i think. i brought this up with relation to the other passage showing that YHWH refers to HIMSELF as Adonim, so that it CAN be used singularly. that was the point, nothing more. since it CAN be used in a singular sense, i was suggesting that the AN"K's usage of the "spelling" of MARYA / MARYE' could be evidence that it should have been understood singularly, in the Aramaic, as well. of course we can't totally know, but it is interesting that the LXX chose to render it singular, instead of plural.
gbausc Wrote:Marya is The Name of God.
seriously? i thought you were advocating that Marya means Lord-Yah? YHWH is His Name, however that should be pronounced, but Marya is not His Name, but instead, perhaps like Adon YHWH from the Hebrew, but let's be clear that it is not His Name, which is YHWH.
gbausc Wrote:Joshua 3:11 does present a case where the Massoretic Hebrew has ?Adon? and The Peshitta has Marya, but is there any doubt that ?The Lord of all the earth? is YHWH?
no doubt about that, thankfully. again, i was only showing that the AN"K does not appear to be as stringent in translating as it could be.
gbausc Wrote:You have yet to show one place where Marya (not plural Maryay) refers to anyone but YHWH.
actually, to be fair, i've only yet to show thus to your satisfaction, as the above instance from Isaiah could be argued. and perhaps you are right -- i'm not against Marya = YHWH uncontestedly, to be clear. i just want to make sure from all points that it HAS to always mean that and that alone. i've personally yet to see evidence which is to my complete satisfaction. but we're all still learning, so no hard feelings, i hope!
gbausc Wrote:It was not my object to assert the Peshitta reading in Psalms 114:7 necessarily reflects the original to be YHWH, only that the Hebrew manuscript from which the Peshitta was translated may have had YHWH at that place; we cannot know; we can only guess. It also was not my purpose to prove that YHWH always translates to Marya, only that Marya always translates YHWH or identifies YHWH.
ah, okay, thanks for the clarification of your intent. so in effect, using Psalms as evidence for or against it would be fruitless.
gbausc Wrote:It would a mistake to think that since ?Adon? was translated with ?Marya? (if indeed it was) in a few places, and also translated as ?Mara?, and that since YHWH is also translated as Marya and as Mara in a few places, that Mara and Marya are the same, even as it would be a mistake to think ?Adon? and YHWH have the same meaning, since both are apparently translated with ?Marya? in any number of cases. Even if YHWH was translated as Mara in a few places, which cannot be proved, the fact remains that wherever we find ?Marya? in the Peshitta OT, it identifies The Deity -YHWH.
the point of my referencing was to show that again, the AN"K was not totally consistent in rendering the Hebrew completely accurately, and that should be taken into consideration. for some reason it chose to not render the Name in those instances. i'm not advocating that any one is the exact same meaning (and definitely not Adon and YHWH), just throwing out some evidence that should be considered in the whole matter, because i think people are really quick to be definitive in this topic one way or the other, but there are questions that still remain and need to be inspected.
gbausc Wrote:We do know that the Massoretes altered ?YHWH? in at least 134 places to ?Adonai? in the TaNaK. They documented this in the Massorahs found in Hebrew mss, and were compiled by David Ginsburg.
I have listed all the references at the end of my interlinear translation of the Peshitta Psalms & Proverbs. Bullinger's Companion Bible also has these in the appendix.
yes, the tikkuney that i referred to are the emendations you speak of. i believe you can find them online as well.
gbausc Wrote:The bottom line is that Marya always identifies YHWH, never any other.
Considering that Marya occurs over 6,600 times in the Peshitta Tanak, that has to count for something.
well, i'm not entirely sure, obviously, that it is never any other. but i'm always open to correction and since i've been wrong most of my life, i wouldn't be surprised, but i need conclusive evidence that i've yet to really see.
gbausc Wrote:Taybutha b'Shemah d'Marya Yeshua,
Dave
blessings!
Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy