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Concerning the Cross and the Pole
cool - i'll check as well as see if i can locate the passages.

Chayim b'Moshiach,
It's cross of course. I'm Nazarene and I sincerely believe this should be cross.
I admit some of Nazarene ribbi and scholars have become too.... what should I say?
Cross. It's easy. Why were the soldiers trying to break Yeshua's leg bones in Book of John? If someone was hanged on a pole, breaking his bone wouldn't help in killing him. On the other hand, if someone was hanged on a cross, he would suffer from suffocating after this step.

Anyway, it is not a business of salvation, right?(I learn this word from my former evangelical christian faith.)
I was checking back on this post today and I decided to look up the Josephus reference.

Wars 3.7.19 214
This battering ram is a vast beam of wood like the mast of a ship, its forepart is armed with a thick piece of iron at the head of it, which is so carved as to be like the head of a ram, whence its name is taken. This ram is slung in the air by ropes passing over its middle, and is hung like the balance in a pair of scales from another beam, and braced by strong beams that pass on both sides of it, in the nature of a cross.

Here's an image I found that seems to depict what he described.
[Image: accurate4_4.gif]
I may have an answer to solve why it was written "Pole"

And in fact it's a cross.

Of course I don't know Aramaic or any crosses. But shall we consider this as hanging on pole??
Check 4:20-4:35
A log was used to nail for the perpetuator.

Then hang the log on a straight pole. And that we have a cross-like pole.
I'd also forward you to Genesis 1 which shows the Spirit of God making the sign of the Cross on the earth before the act of creation.

Hi all,

I was wondering if rafa (or anyone else) could help me with this one. I've just read Genesis 1 and I don't see how one comes up with the idea that the Spirit made the sign of the cross on the earth. Thanks in advance for any input......

Hi Billman,

It is in reference to the mark placed on Cains forehead. What that mark was? I cannot tell you but obviously some of the boys here believe it was in the shape of a Cross. I am sure someone will elaborate.

I cannot help it, but there is no bible reference to the look of the mark on Cain, it even does not say 'on his head' but just 'a mark on him'.
The Hebrew for 'mark' (oth) does not signify a cross.
Probably your church or group teaches this.

What's the source?
No idea, all I know is that a mark was set upon him, I was just throwing in my two cents worth. <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: -->
Hi Alan G77,
Thanks for the response, but I guess I am still missing something here. I was referring to the second post of this thread where rafa said that the Spirit made the sign of the cross before the act of creation in Genesis 1. I assumed that he was referring to something different there than the mark of Cain which of course, happened a bit later. Again, sorry if I have missed something. I am new here so please a little patience.....
<!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin -->

I'm new to so don't worry brother.
See <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href=""></a><!-- m -->: "NOTHING in the New Testament indicates a foregoing of the usual Roman use of stipes (vertical beam) and patibulum (crossbeam). The Gospel narratives speak of the soldiers whipping Christ, having him carry the cross, stripping him, nailing him, and gambling for his clothes. There is no mention of Christ or the soldiers digging a hole and placing into it the single (vertical) beam which he was forced to carry. The vertical beam already must have been in place, so it was the crossbeam (patibulum) that he carried and was nailed to...A LAST piece of evidence comes from the New Testament: Examine John 20:25, where doubting Thomas speaks. The Witnesses? New World Translation gives the verse as follows: "Unless I see in his hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe." Even in their own translation John refers to hands (plural) and nails (plural). The inference is simple." Gk stauros can also refer to a pole with a crossbeam (<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href=""></a><!-- m -->)

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