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Good Wednesday or Good Friday?
#46
Barota, I do not intend to claim that people in Protestant churches are going to hell, but if you cannot see that Satan is a mastermind at dividing the Church then you need to refocus. If the Protestant movement is truly fruitful, then why in the States alone are there 33000 denominations? Will God divide and divide and divide.
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#47
Hello Alan g77,
Like I said, You can believe whatever you like.
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#48
When we stand before our Creator - MarYah, and our life is being analyzed what is the standard by which we are being judged against? Is it Protestant doctrine? Is it RCC doctrine? Is it ACOE doctrine? Is it Eastern Orthodox doctrine? He made it very clearly; it?s His words that He spoke to us. And the more one spends with His words, the more one realizes that they are very plain and clear such that there is no excuse for disobeying.

That?s why is very critical that we know His words as best as it can be. When Paul (our Paul, not the Shaul from the Bible) starts the Bible learning by heart meetings, there should be hundreds of us there :-) .

This is the standard by which we are to judge churches and movements to know if they are in the truth or not. They may start out well and end up in the wrong place. This has happened even with churches that Paul himself has established. See Galatian letter.
The Protestant churches that you mentioned, do they stand against the standard? No. The Orthodox churches that I mentioned, did they? No, they were filled with corruption and then some people were moved to like the prophets of the old to point out the problems. And like the leaders of the old, they either received the message or killed and persecuted the messengers.

There is no safety only where Yeshua said there is safety. That?s in doing what He commanded us to do. We can?t afford to sleep well, just because we are part of an Apostolic church, or Sola Scripte church, or we are descendants of Abraham, or Moshe or who knows what.
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#49
Just a quick clarification: When I was saying Eastern Orthodox I was talking about Greek (or Slavic) Orthodox not Church of East. As far as I can tell up to this point, Church of East was not the one persecuting but the one being persecuted, by either pagan rules or other churches. And their faithfulness to Yeshua, makes me feel very unworthy and small.
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#50
Man, I realize I need to be more careful before hitting submit in a hurry, because it could sound totally the opposite of what you wanted to say.
If there was somebody who kept the Sabbath indeed, Yeshua and the Apostles were the ones.
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#51
Hello borota,
I totally agree with you. Jesus himself says this to disciples (Matthew 24:20 Paul Younan's Interlinear Translation) - "And pray that your flight will not be in winter, nor on the Sabbath. "

Luke 4:16 (let me take NIV) - "He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom."

Acts 13:14 (NIV) - From Perga they ("Barnabas and Paul") went on to Pisidian Antioch. On the Sabbath they entered the synagogue and sat down.

Acts 18:4 (NIV) - "Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks."

Hebrews 4:9 (NIV) - "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God."

Scholar William Norton's Translation of Hebrews 4:9 from Peshitta clearly says this "So then, It is firmly sure that the people of God are to keep a Sabbath rest."

These are satisfactory evidences for me to believe that Sabbath is important.
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#52
Konway, you keep taking scripture out of their context, a Muslim could advocate for their religion by employing your methods.

Barota, please realize that many will come and say "Lord, Lord" and we all know how the rest of it goes. I am on the train at the moment and will respond tonight in full.
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#53
Barota,

Do you observe the Sabbath? Why or why not?
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#54
I could answer both yes and no, and both answers would be correct, hopefully :-)

There is a "dimension" to the command to keep the Sabbath that is binding for all ages, and we, even as Christians are to diligently keep the Sabbath in that respect. The writer of Hebrews explains it:
"For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God?s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience." (<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%204:8-11&version=NIV">http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV</a><!-- m -->). But rather, the whole Hebrew book should be read to get the better picture.

As for keeping the seventh day of the week by not doing any physical work, not traveling and such: I think both Yeshua and his disciples showed it pretty clearly that was not where the real focus of the command was. And Paul has also made it clear in many other places. One such place was referenced by brother Rafa above.
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#55
Dear Alan G77,

You may be right, but with how you've presented it, how would anyone know? You haven't offered anything logically compelling for the unconvinced.

Anyway, I can only take so much. I sincerely asked for this thread to get back to the original topic, and not to turn into a debate about Torah, but you seem to insist. Whether people feel a need to keep some or all Torah, or to be completely antinomian, fine... but why be contentious against others about it?? And if contentious, why also harsh? I find it interesting how venomous some antinomians can get in trying to stamp out those of whom the worst that can be said honestly is that they want to love their Lord the Way they believe He described. What do you find so objectionable about our views? (hint: "if you love me despise my commandments" is not in my Scriptures - is it in yours?)
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#56
The word for Friday in Assyrian is orowta and it had to do with the sun setting on Friday once Christ was crucified.

I'm in the car now but there's definitely something there to investigate.

Apart from all the other stuff in this thread, people just need to be patient with each other. Learning and changes in opinion don't happen immediately. Slow and steady wins the race.

God bless.
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#57
Robert, thanks sincerely for the contribution. I was once persuaded by a Hebrew/Aramaic scholar that orowta/arubta is cognate to Hebrew erev. Can you or anyone else affirm or correct this? I would like to know.
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#58
Rramlow,

My apologies for sounding harsh, as Lector Robert knows I am not one who likes to open the door to "compromise". Why? Because compromise leads to a watering down of the faith handed down by and this leads to ultimate death.

You need to understand brother that (as per your post edited post) that the Assyrian Church is by no means a "winner" and have been persecuted beyond compare. We were the original nazrenes, we know the Jewish traditions but we also understood that Yeshua fulfilled them all, that is why He is our sabbath, He is our law, He is our sacrifice and He is the only way to the Father, Ana khlapeh.
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#59
Barota got it spot on with his post, we are in the sabbath everyday, we have entered God's rest through the ultimate sacrifice of His son.
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#60
Alan G77 Wrote:Rramlow,

My apologies for sounding harsh, as Lector Robert knows I am not one who likes to open the door to "compromise". Why? Because compromise leads to a watering down of the faith handed down by and this leads to ultimate death.

You need to understand brother that (as per your post edited post) that the Assyrian Church is by no means a "winner" and have been persecuted beyond compare. We were the original nazrenes, we know the Jewish traditions but we also understood that Yeshua fulfilled them all, that is why He is our sabbath, He is our law, He is our sacrifice and He is the only way to the Father, Ana khlapeh.

Dear Alan G77,

I understand persecution and I admire the faith of those who under fire carry their faith intact to the end. However, if I were to share with you how my people have been persecuted, I think you would agree that persecution does not lend anyone credibility with regard to correct teaching.

You note that I edited my post. If you observe me for any length of time you may become used to it. An integral part of my faith is the consideration of where I might be wrong, where I could use improvement, and where I could have done something better. I would rather catch myself in an error than leave it to someone else. In this case I decided there was a more loving way to communicate and so I scrapped most of what I had written. I had asked you to stop attacking our views because I could feel myself tempted to respond in kind and I did not like the feeling.

You cite a strong personal opposition to compromise as the source of your previous vehemence. I sincerely praise the wonderful policy of resisting compromise. Please understand that this is actually where I come from, as well. Without addressing who between our two positions is correct, it may give you some perspective to realize that just as much as you see your religion as the original faith, so also I see mine. Just as you don't want to "compromise" the faith you believe to be that of the Apostles, and that has been handed down from your ancestors, neither do I.

We can each claim all day long that our position is the original, that our understood context for any given passage is the correct understanding, etc. ...Certainly on the issues of Torah and the crucifixion/resurrection schedule your position has the advantage of being the "majority" position for over a millenium. These are items on which I can't see anyone's history of persecution having real bearing. Parties with opposite views never get anywhere arguing about who is right. A better way is to constructively discuss the right methods for reaching a conclusion. What we should be (calmly and warmly) discussing is the textual basis for our different perspectives, and the comparison/contrast between our hermeneutic methods. Hence my pleas to get back on topic and frustration with your insistence on attacking specific beliefs not related to the purpose of this thread.

My hope is that we can get this discussion back on good rails and get somewhere fruitful without bruising too much of the fruit along the way. <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink -->
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