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Good Wednesday or Good Friday?
#76
(restored after accidental deletion)

Dear friends and brethren,

We have only just recently got this thread somewhat back on-topic to "Good Wednesday or Good Friday". I am genuinely interested in this topic and would like to be able to follow it. I would also love to see a healthy and honest discussion of whether and how Sabbath is to be kept, but ought we to do both here? Sabbath discussions tend to get very lively and polarized. IIRC, not that many posts ago someone was already throwing around "Satan" and "Antichrist" or somesuch due to this. I've often seen Sabbath threads at various forums get very heated and progress rapidly. I am concerned that this trend will resurface, making it hard for me to find & follow the intended topic of the thread. I might not be the only person who would have difficulty in that situation.

So that posts actually about the "Good Wednesday or Good Friday" topic don't get buried in a tsunami of unrelated material, could I persuade you to debate Sabbath in a "Sabbath" thread instead?

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Paul Younan Wrote:Only the Christian Semites refer to Friday as "(A)rubtha" (Erev in Hebrew).

Dear Paul,

Shlama! <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

I must be taking you wrong, because it sounds as if you are asserting that Jews do not use & never have used "Erev" in one of their terms for Yom Shishi. Please clear that up.

I hope you're not taking that position, because I have seen strong evidence against such an assertion (and from sources I'd hold as highly credible on the topic of what terms Jews have and have not used).

-Raymond
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#77
Shlama rmanlow.

I've seen the term used by Jews for the evening, but not the entire day. In other words the official name of the day of the week.
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#78
Paul Younan Wrote:Shlama rmanlow.

I've seen the term used by Jews for the evening, but not the entire day. In other words the official name of the day of the week.
Shlama Paul,

Please forgive any screw-ups I may present in attempting to employ Aramaic terms. My learning level is still not even worthy of being called infantile.

I recall (and perhaps understand) the history you've given for why Mshikaye(sp?) use "Arubtha" to indicate Weekday 6. If there were evidence for another origin, would you be interested?
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#79
Always interested in learning more. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
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#80
Rafa Wrote:The Bishop of Mosul who lived nearly 1000 years ago and had the tradition written down carefully, after centuries of oral transmission, already said Friday 13th of Nisan. I think nobody here will ever attain his deep level of knowledge of the scriptures, much like nobody here would be able to contest Mar Odisho on anything. The chronology in Mark suggest this as well. To me that settles the case, Herbie armstrong who came up with this "good wednsesday" be gone.

How does The Bishop of Mosul account that the Next Day was a High Shabbawth? Every body knows that the body had to be taken off of the tree before the Shabbawth so how could Yahu-Shuah be crucified on the 13th when the so-called next day was the High Shabbawth which was always on the 15th? It seems as if something is not right with this 13th day crucifixion theory.
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#81
Nimrod Warda Wrote:According to the tradition laid out in the "book of the bee" written by Metropolitan Shlemon of the Church of the East in 13th century, "Our Lord was crucified at the third hour of Friday, the 9th of Nisan."

I don't know if this helps, but I thought I would post this regardless.

God Bless,

Nimrod Warda

How does Metropolitan Shlemon of the Church of the East in 13th century account that the Next Day was a High Shabbawth? Every body knows that the body had to be taken off of the tree before the Shabbawth so how could Yahu-Shuah be crucified on the 9th when the so-called next day was the High Shabbawth which was always on the 15th? It seems as if something is not right with this 9th day crucifixion theory.
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#82
my bad, asked and answered.
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#83
Alan G77 Wrote:One more issue i would like to bring to your attention, if our Churches were practicing the faith in err, how do you account for the miracles that have taken place through the Apostolic Churches and her Saints? I can tell you that God would not work miracles through our Church if it were in err, go have a look at the JW and Mormon Churches, both in err and both spiritually dry in terms of miracles.

You will know them by their fruits is an awesome verse, our Church spread the faith through the whole of Asia, our Church has been labelled the Church of martyrs because of the countless millions that have died in the last 2000 years for upholding the truth.

The Bible cannot be taken out of context and it should never be understood through your own interpretation, this is Protestant dogma "sola scriptura" and should be avoided.

If Ail Shaddai Yahuwah Ailoheem Adonai was to wait for us to know everything perfectly before He would begin to relate with us we would never be able to experience Him in anyway what so ever. Therefore I propose to you that He does allow miracles to take place to help build our faith so that we will continue to seek after Him and learn more of Him and His ways.

There are many people getting healed in so-called christian churches that do not believe like the Apostolic Churches. I to have been healed more than once and was not perfect in my understanding of Yahuwah' Torah. I did not observe the dietary laws and smoked but I still got healed on more than one occasion. This I attribute to the fact that I was on a journey of learning, and still am to this day. I remember one time, while in jail over a seat belt ticket, four of us pray to the Heavenly Father for favour and the very next day all four of our askings came to past. Keep in mind one guy was a crack addict that hooked a chain to his pickup truck and a coke machine and drug it for miles down the road while the police chased after him, another had stolen millions of dollars of computer part from a company, while the other was just a drug addict. This proved to me that Yahuwah comes to us as we are and trys to get us to begin cleaning up our act. Not get your act straight and then. I now seek after the faith handed down once and for all -The way of the Nazarenes. I now keep the dietary laws and observe the Feast, and more. Oh and not trying to stick this on anybody but the Scriptures speak of signs and wonders that the false prophet will do in 2Th 2:9 which I believe will entail miracles. Again I am not saying that your church has anything to do with the false prophet just pointing out the fact that just because miracle are being done does not mean they are Heaven sent, as Beelzebub can do such too. So to answer your question miracles prove nothing when it comes to theology true or false.
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#84
Alan G77 Wrote:
Quote:the entire LAW was scrapped, the sabbath went bye bye with it.

So the Instructions/Torah/Laws that say we should not have sex with animals is scrapped and we can now also have incest relations with our fathers, mothers, sisters, and brother, not to mention it is no longer a sin to have sex with some one of the same sex. And it also seems as if we can now have other ailoheem before Yahuwah, make graven images, and take The Sacred Name in vain, not to mention steal, kill, and covet or neighbour? stuff. And we no longer have to honour our mother and fathers, and can now commit adultery at will all with our Heavenly Father blessings because Grace replaced the Instructions/Torah/Laws. Oh and if it is alright to bare false witness now why do you preach against those that say the opposite as to what you believe? Is this what you are saying? I do not mean to put words into your mouth but if all this is true of your religion I do not want to serve your Ailoheem as He has become a lover of perversities. Truly think about what you said in the statement quoted above. Surely you misunderstood something somewhere? Never to late to repent as the Gospel tells. But then again repent of what if there is no longer a Law to break? Your theology seems to me to be greatly flawed.
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#85
This is for the "RAT"...

Just an observation and a question for you:

Since it is written that if a person breaks the smallest part of The Law, they are guilty of breaking the whole of it...then, if you are breaking one law, you are breaking the whole law...You said that you keep this part and that part...so, are you saying that you keep every part...and break nothing? If not, then you are not keeping any part of the Law...But are breaking the whole of it.
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#86
Ugh. I really thought we could have a productive thread about the timing of the crucifixion, but no. Apparently no thread is immune to being taken over by the ever-persistent debate between those for and against some kind of Torah observance. Yes that's a really important issue, but seriously... if we're going to throw around Scripture casually & out-of-context to support pet positions, how about "let all things be done decently and in order"?
<!-- s:inlove: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/inlove.gif" alt=":inlove:" title="In Love" /><!-- s:inlove: -->
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#87
The Texas RAT Wrote:
Alan G77 Wrote:
Quote:the entire LAW was scrapped, the sabbath went bye bye with it.

So the Instructions/Torah/Laws that say we should not have sex with animals is scrapped and we can now also have incest relations with our fathers, mothers, sisters, and brother, not to mention it is no longer a sin to have sex with some one of the same sex. And it also seems as if we can now have other ailoheem before Yahuwah, make graven images, and take The Sacred Name in vain, not to mention steal, kill, and covet or neighbour? stuff. And we no longer have to honour our mother and fathers, and can now commit adultery at will all with our Heavenly Father blessings because Grace replaced the Instructions/Torah/Laws. Oh and if it is alright to bare false witness now why do you preach against those that say the opposite as to what you believe? Is this what you are saying? I do not mean to put words into your mouth but if all this is true of your religion I do not want to serve your Ailoheem as He has become a lover of perversities. Truly think about what you said in the
statement quoted above. Surely you misunderstood something somewhere? Never to late to repent as the Gospel tells. But then again repent of what if there is no longer a Law to break? Your theology seems to me to be greatly flawed.

First of all my friend, for you to come here and not only put words into my mouth but also blatantly misrepresent the Assyrian Churches stance on the Law is dubious and insulting.

If you had a basic understanding of New Testament theological constructs you would conclude that the works of the Law is what I am actually referring to. According to you and the rest of the judaizer's that regularly visit these forums, you would have us believe that we must observe Old Testament laws in order to be saved.

Let us see what St Paul has to say...

?1 [a]You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of [b]the Law, or by [c]hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you [f]suffer so many things in vain?if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works [g]miracles among you, do it by the works of [h]the Law, or by [i]hearing with faith?

Do we pervert Gods moral law by rejecting the sabbath? No, the sabbath and the works of the law were fulfilled in Jesus Christ and through Him only are we able to discern what is moral or immoral. The law could not save men, if the law could save men then we would have no need for Jesus to have hung upon the Cross. When we are baptized and repent, the Holy Spirit is poured gracefully upon us and through Him we are taught and by Him do we understand that murder, rape, theft etc is against His commands.
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#88
I like this...


First, let?s line up the usual suspects.

Did Rome do it?

If Rome changed the Sabbath to Sunday, it would only explain why Protestants and Roman Catholics worship on Sunday. It would not explain why Orthodox Christians worship on Sunday, and it certainly would not explain why Syriac, the Armenian, and Coptic Christians worship on Sunday, because they had very little contact with Rome until modern times. For example, the Armenian Apostolic Church does not celebrate Christmas, which originated in Rome in the fourth century. Instead, they celebrate the nativity of Jesus Christ on Epiphany. Rome could only have changed the day of worship before the fall of the Roman Empire, because after then communications weren?t good enough. However, during that period, Rome did not have much influence in the east.

Did the Emperor Constantine do it?

Constantine converted to Christianity after winning the battle of the Milvian Bridge. He wasn?t a very bright man and he did not have a coherent personal theology. After he became emperor, he reformed the tax system, passed laws protecting widows and orphans, donated money to churches, and sent his mother Helen to the Holy Land to preserve and restore all those sites that tourists visit even today. He passed a law that made all religions legal, and that ended the persecution of Christians. He convened and paid for the first ecumenical council in AD 325, but he was unable to understand the debates, let alone participate in them. He also changed the Roman week from ten days to seven days, so that Sunday, the Christian day of worship would always be a holiday. He did not make Christianity the state religion or do any of the other evil things often attributed to him?they were actually done by his successor, Theodosius, eighty years later. When Constantine instituted the seven-day week, he did it because Christians were already worshiping on Sunday and his purpose was to make it easier for them.

So who moved the Sabbath?

No one ever moved the Sabbath. In fact, if you look on page 283 of the Book of Common Prayer of the US Episcopal Church, you will find a service for Holy Saturday, the day before Easter Day. There is a prayer on that page that says, ?O God, creator of heaven and earth: Grant that, as the crucified body of your dear Son was laid in the tomb and rested on this holy Sabbath, so we may await with him...?

When did worship on Sundays begin?

In the early centuries, Christians everywhere worshipped on Sunday. We know that from Christian writers who described ancient worship, such as Justin Martyr, who died in 157. All ancient churches, from Gaul to Armenia, had their main worship service on Sunday.

Why did ancient Christians worship on Sunday?

Sunday was the universal day of Christian worship because it is the day of the Resurrection, the day after the Sabbath, and the Feast of Firstfruits?which is why Paul calls Jesus? resurrection the firstfruits of the resurrection (1?Corinthians?15:20). Since it is the first day of the week, it is also the eighth day of the previous week, the day of the new creation (the allusion in 2?Corinthians?5:17).

The Sabbath commandment does not require worship, it prohibits work. Worship can occur on any day. The synagogue originated during the Babylonian Captivity, not as a place of worship, but as an school to preserve Jewish heritage and religion in a foreign land.

In the first century, many Christians, both Jews and gentile ?God-fearers,? continued to attend synagogue instruction on the Sabbath and then attended Christian worship on Sunday. Since the Roman week was ten days long at the time, Sunday didn?t always fall on the Roman weekend, so services were held before sunrise. In the 90s, the rabbis excommunicated the Christians and inserted wording into the synagogue liturgy that would make Christians very uncomfortable, even if they did attend. So we were left with just Sunday.

When Christianity became dominant in an area, it was common for larger churches to hold worship services on all days of the week.

Why do some people call Sunday the Sabbath?

The Sabbath is, of course, Saturday. As the Church grew and Christians came to outnumber Jews, there was talk of Sunday being like a Christian Sabbath. From there it was a short step to talk of Sunday as if it were the Sabbath. That?s not a bad comparison of the church and the synagogue. Sunday is not and it never has been the Sabbath.

How does one keep the Sabbath holy?

The word ?Sabbath? is related to the Hebrew word for ?rest,? and the primary duty of a Jew is to stop working on the Sabbath. Biblically, you keep the Sabbath holy by not working. In Orthodox Judaism, it is a sin to drive a car on the Sabbath, because the Law of Moses prohibits making fires on the Sabbath and cars have internal combustion engines?so driving a car amounts to making a series of little fires. Therefore, if you are an Orthodox Jew, and you live beyond walking distance of the synagogue, it is a sin to attend worship if you have to drive to get there.

Saturday is the Sabbath. Sunday is the Lord?s Day, because Jesus rested in the tomb on the Sabbath and rose on Sunday. Therefore the principal day of Christian worship has always been Sunday?until the 19th century when some Christians innovated the custom of worshiping on the Sabbath.

What?s a Christian to do?

The apostles had a meeting to decide which of the Jewish laws apply to non-Jewish Christians. Their decision is recorded in Acts 15:24-29. If you read it carefully, there is nothing in there about the Sabbath. Any modern Jewish rabbi would agree?the Sabbath law only applies to Jews. If you want to keep the Sabbath holy, you can follow Jesus? example?you don?t have to go so far as to rest in a tomb, just do the resting part and abstain from work. Since Jesus rose from the grave on Sunday, that is the best day to celebrate it in worship.

However, there is no day of the week on which you must not worship. Your church can have its principal day of worship on Saturdays, if it likes. Your church could even have its principal day of worship on Tuesdays, for that matter. I admit, that would be a little odd, and it would be a break with the ancient church, but don?t let anyone tell you it is wrong. There is also nothing stopping you from worshiping every single day, and in fact I strongly recommend it. You can set up an oratory in a spare room or some other space and have personal or family devotions as often as four times a day using the Book of Common Prayer, other resources, or the Prayer Builder on this web site.
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#89
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.gci.org/law/sabbath/hanson">http://www.gci.org/law/sabbath/hanson</a><!-- m -->

This article is an excellent refutation of the sabbath doctrine.

I find it utterly coincidental that all the early churches that had little to no interaction with one another were able to conclude that the day of rest and worship was to be renewed and occur on the Sunday, the Lords day, rather than the Saturday.

Some like to claim that God wouldn't change His mind concerning this part of the covenant forgetting that He rejected the ever rebellious Jews and poured His grace onto the Gentiles. God made a new covenant, a better covenant that was again rejected by the first century Jews who merely followed in their forefathers footsteps.

But what does the Lord say?


Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
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#90
How much easier it is to trash the kitchen than to clean it up.
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