Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Good Wednesday or Good Friday?
#31
One more issue i would like to bring to your attention, if our Churches were practicing the faith in err, how do you account for the miracles that have taken place through the Apostolic Churches and her Saints? I can tell you that God would not work miracles through our Church if it were in err, go have a look at the JW and Mormon Churches, both in err and both spiritually dry in terms of miracles.

You will know them by their fruits is an awesome verse, our Church spread the faith through the whole of Asia, our Church has been labelled the Church of martyrs because of the countless millions that have died in the last 2000 years for upholding the truth.

The Bible cannot be taken out of context and it should never be understood through your own interpretation, this is Protestant dogma "sola scriptura" and should be avoided.
Reply
#32
Hello AlanG77,
Can you tell me where does St. Paul mention "Lord's day"? I am interested, because St. Paul also says this - "So then, It is firmly sure that the people of God are to keep a Sabbath rest." (Norton Translation of Hebrews 4:9).

As for Jewish dietary laws, here is something I wrote before. Alan, I am posting this again if you are interested in reading it.

"It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man." - Matthew 15:11

First, I will just focus on "one" of the points that you said. Yeshua's own words clearly state that we are free to eat what we like because it will not and can not defile us, only that which proceeds from our mouths can defile us.

Now here is my explanation.

Jesus Christ was actually talking to Scribes and Pharisees that Laws are more important than their tradition. The problem was that Scribes and Pharisees favored their tradition over Laws given to them by God. We know that Jesus Christ was a Jew. If Jesus was "actually" saying to Scribes and Pharisees that they could eat unclean food, then Jesus would have been violating Jewish laws. And Scribes and Pharisees would have used this an evidence to destroy Lord Jesus Christ. We know that Pontius Pilate couldn't find a single mistake of Jesus Christ. Not only that, Jesus Christ points out the prophesy by Isaiah as an example in the same chapter (Matthew 15:7-8). This is the same Isaiah the prophet who says this "They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD." This is from Isaiah Chapter 66: 17 (KJV).
Reply
#33
Acts 20-7 and 1st Corinth 16 1-2

My apologies, it was not called the Lords day, but these two passages show comprehensively that Christians gathered on a Sunday, not a Saturday.

I will deal with your other points later, I see you have decided to address only one point I brought up though.
Reply
#34
And don't take one verse out of context (Hebrews 4-9) trying to prove a point, as I said I will disassemble your analysis later, I am on the way to work and have an exam later today.
Reply
#35
Hello Alan G77,
You have to be very careful when you explain something. Now you see that St. Paul doesn't mention that Lord's day is Sunday. When I explain something, I usually show several examples. Please understand that I don't use verses from the Bible for my own personal purposes. Before I enter into Hebrews 4:9, I will focus on your verses "Acts 20:7" and "1 Corinth 16-2."

Acts 20:7

This was actually explained by Andrew Roth long time ago. Here is a small explanation that I collected from Aramaic Scholar Andrew Roth.

"By our western reckoning, the timing of the breaking of bread was not even on Sunday! It is only by sloppily reading Acts 20:7 that it appears to be Sunday. The question is
though, how can this be when the text clearly says "first day of the week"?

The answer is that it was the first day of the week by Jewish standards, with the time being reckoned from sunset to sunset. By our western calendar though it was not Sunday, but late Saturday night. "Sunday" would not officially begin until midnight, the exact time that the text tells us Paul kept talking to his people! And so, what does that fact have to do with today's Christians getting up on the following morning and going to "church"? Absolutely nothing! Do Christians gauge their days sunset to sunset? Of course not! Do they have an after Shabbat meal and worship for the most part on Saturday evening? Not in the least! Therefore, there is no linkage.

Instead, what is going on is a time-honored Jewish tradition, an after Shabbat meal called havdilah, where people literally got together to break bread (Jeremiah 16:7). The apostles then were not instituting a new day of rest, but were simply following the ancient traditions of their ancestors. Funny thing though, I don't see many rabbis claiming that the breaking of bread in Jeremiah's day replaced Shabbat worship, do you?"

1 Corinthians 16-2

Here is an information I collected long time ago from a website. Here is the explanation on 1 Corinthians 16-2.

It must be noted that the keyword used in this verse is "first of sabbaths." Check Aramaic Peshitta or Greek Texts. The term "first of sabbaths" is used for the Feast of First Fruits, which is the beginning of the "week of weeks", or 7 weeks until Pentecost. Pentecost is after completion of 7 weekly Sabbaths (49 days). The "first of sabbaths" is just prior to Pentecost, since it is 49 days prior (1 Corinthians 16:8). This indicates a yearly feast day, and not a weekly occurrance.

It was during this time that a collection was taken up by Paul for those in Jerusalem, in accordance with Deuteronomy 16:9-11. It was on the "first of Sabbaths" (John 20:1) that Christ said "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

Yet later, on that very same day, Christ let his disciples inspect His wounds. (John 20:19-20) For just as the wave offering for the feast of First Fruits was made on the "morrow after the sabbath" (Leviticus 23:11), so was Christ presented to the Father as the perfect wave offering of the "first fruits from the dead." (1 Corinthians 15:20-23)

This is what happened on the Sunday after the Lord was resurrected, for there was not a change in the Sabbath day. Regardless, there is no commandment in the Bible that ever changed the Sabbath day to another day.

I only addressed one of your points in my previous posts, because my primary focus was on what Jesus Christ said.
Reply
#36
Quote:Acts 20:7

This was actually explained by Andrew Roth long time ago. Here is a small explanation that I collected from Aramaic Scholar Andrew Roth.

"By our western reckoning, the timing of the breaking of bread was not even on Sunday! It is only by sloppily reading Acts 20:7 that it appears to be Sunday. The question is
though, how can this be when the text clearly says "first day of the week
"?

I respect Andrew, but Andrew can make mistakes and interpret scripture with his own biases. We have evidence from the first and early second century that the Lords day was a Sunday, not a Saturday. Let me explain, the Apostles went to Asia, Europe and Africa and what we find in all these continents is that they worshipped on a Sunday, please remember that the ACOE had nothing to do with these other Churches and grew independently. But yet we see that all these peoples, from different lands were worshipping on a Sunday, coincidence? Hardly. The Apostles, including Paul knew that to keep the sabbath was to keep the whole law and WE DO NOT keep the law, for if you keep one part of the law you must keep it all. I would rather trust the Early Church Fathers who were closer to the event than putting my faith in Andrew.

Quote:The answer is that it was the first day of the week by Jewish standards, with the time being reckoned from sunset to sunset. By our western calendar though it was not Sunday, but late Saturday night. "Sunday" would not officially begin until midnight, the exact time that the text tells us Paul kept talking to his people! And so, what does that fact have to do with today's Christians getting up on the following morning and going to "church"? Absolutely nothing! Do Christians gauge their days sunset to sunset? Of course not! Do they have an after Shabbat meal and worship for the most part on Saturday evening? Not in the least! Therefore, there is no linkage.

This is pure conjecture based on prejudice and biases, backed with nothing more than rhetoric.

Quote:Instead, what is going on is a time-honored Jewish tradition, an after Shabbat meal called havdilah, where people literally got together to break bread (Jeremiah 16:7). The apostles then were not instituting a new day of rest, but were simply following the ancient traditions of their ancestors. Funny thing though, I don't see many rabbis claiming that the breaking of bread in Jeremiah's day replaced Shabbat worship, do you?"


Rubbish, if Paul meant the sabbath he would of stated it was the sabbath, why would he need to differentiate his wording? He did so we could differentiate between the sabbath and Sunday. Paul was referring to the Eucharist not a Jewish tradition, this is conjecture by Andrew. Paul was preaching against these traditions, why would he honor them?

1 Corinthians 16-2

Quote:Here is an information I collected long time ago from a website. Here is the explanation on 1 Corinthians 16-2.

It must be noted that the keyword used in this verse is "first of sabbaths." Check Aramaic Peshitta or Greek Texts. The term "first of sabbaths" is used for the Feast of First Fruits, which is the beginning of the "week of weeks", or 7 weeks until Pentecost. Pentecost is after completion of 7 weekly Sabbaths (49 days). The "first of sabbaths" is just prior to Pentecost, since it is 49 days prior (1 Corinthians 16:8). This indicates a yearly feast day, and not a weekly occurrance.

It was during this time that a collection was taken up by Paul for those in Jerusalem, in accordance with Deuteronomy 16:9-11. It was on the "first of Sabbaths" (John 20:1) that Christ said "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

More of the same, if it were the sabbath and Paul observed the Sabbath he would not of refuted the whole of the law and he would not have "worked" on the sabbath or made others work. Jesus fulfilled the law and freed us from it, Jesus's sacrifice would be for nothing if we are to keep the sabbath and that is why no Christians have kept it since the beginning of the movement. The law was abolished and with it the sabbath, we have entered into rest with the Lord. Do you honestly believe that after 2000 years you will be able to come and correct us? Lol, if you do not confess Yeshua as the Lord and part of the Holy Trinity, if you attempt to pour new wine into old wine skins, they will burst and thus your faith is futile. You my friend are in error.


Quote:This is what happened on the Sunday after the Lord was resurrected, for there was not a change in the Sabbath day. Regardless, there is no commandment in the Bible that ever changed the Sabbath day to another day.

No, but the entire LAW was scrapped, the sabbath went bye bye with it.
Reply
#37
Sabbath or Sunday?


Some religious organizations (Seventh-Day Adventists, Seventh-Day Baptists, and certain others) claim that Christians must not worship on Sunday but on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. They claim that, at some unnamed time after the apostolic age, the Church "changed" the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord?s day, Sunday, instead.

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday.

?
The Didache


"But every Lord?s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

?
The Letter of Barnabas


"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6?8 [A.D. 74]).

?
Ignatius of Antioch


"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord?s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

?
Justin Martyr


"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you?namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us?I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

?
Tertullian


"[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ?friends of God.? For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1?7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised?yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath?God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God" (An Answer to the Jews 2 [A.D. 203]).

?
The Didascalia


"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]).

?
Origen


"Hence it is not possible that the [day of] rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh [day] of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection" (Commentary on John 2:28 [A.D. 229]).

?
Victorinus


"The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord?s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished" (The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).

?
Eusebius of Caesarea


"They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things" (Church History 1:4:8 [A.D. 312]).

"[T]he day of his [Christ?s] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord?s day, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality" (Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).

?
Athanasius


"The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord?s day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord?s day as being the memorial of the new creation" (On Sabbath and Circumcision 3 [A.D. 345]).

?
Cyril of Jerusalem


"Fall not away either into the sect of the Samaritans or into Judaism, for Jesus Christ has henceforth ransomed you. Stand aloof from all observance of Sabbaths and from calling any indifferent meats common or unclean" (Catechetical Lectures 4:37 [A.D. 350]).

?
Council of Laodicea


"Christians should not Judaize and should not be idle on the Sabbath, but should work on that day; they should, however, particularly reverence the Lord?s day and, if possible, not work on it, because they were Christians" (Canon 29 [A.D. 360]).

?
John Chrysostom


"[W]hen he [God] said, ?You shall not kill? . . . he did not add, ?because murder is a wicked thing.? The reason was that conscience had taught this beforehand, and he speaks thus, as to those who know and understand the point. Wherefore when he speaks to us of another commandment, not known to us by the dictate of conscience, he not only prohibits, but adds the reason. When, for instance, he gave commandment concerning the Sabbath? ?On the seventh day you shall do no work??he subjoined also the reason for this cessation. What was this? ?Because on the seventh day God rested from all his works which he had begun to make? [Ex. 20:10-11]. . . . For what purpose then, I ask, did he add a reason respecting the Sabbath, but did no such thing in regard to murder? Because this commandment was not one of the leading ones. It was not one of those which were accurately defined of our conscience, but a kind of partial and temporary one, and for this reason it was abolished afterward. But those which are necessary and uphold our life are the following: ?You shall not kill. . . . You shall not commit adultery. . . . You shall not steal.? On this account he adds no reason in this case, nor enters into any instruction on the matter, but is content with the bare prohibition" (Homilies on the Statutes 12:9 [A.D. 387]).

"You have put on Christ, you have become a member of the Lord and been enrolled in the heavenly city, and you still grovel in the law [of Moses]? How is it possible for you to obtain the kingdom? Listen to Paul?s words, that the observance of the law overthrows the gospel, and learn, if you will, how this comes to pass, and tremble, and shun this pitfall. Why do you keep the Sabbath and fast with the Jews?" (Homilies on Galatians 2:17 [A.D. 395]).

"The rite of circumcision was venerable in the Jews? account, forasmuch as the law itself gave way thereto, and the Sabbath was less esteemed than circumcision. For that circumcision might be performed, the Sabbath was broken; but that the Sabbath might be kept, circumcision was never broken; and mark, I pray, the dispensation of God. This is found to be even more solemn than the Sabbath, as not being omitted at certain times. When then it is done away, much more is the Sabbath" (Homilies on Philippians 10 [A.D. 402]).

?
The Apostolic Constitutions


"And on the day of our Lord?s resurrection, which is the Lord?s day, meet more diligently, sending praise to God that made the universe by Jesus, and sent him to us, and condescended to let him suffer, and raised him from the dead. Otherwise what apology will he make to God who does not assemble on that day . . . in which is performed the reading of the prophets, the preaching of the gospel, the oblation of the sacrifice, the gift of the holy food" (Apostolic Constitutions 2:7:60 [A.D. 400]).

?
Augustine


"Well, now, I should like to be told what there is in these ten commandments, except the observance of the Sabbath, which ought not to be kept by a Christian. . . . Which of these commandments would anyone say that the Christian ought not to keep? It is possible to contend that it is not the law which was written on those two tables that the apostle [Paul] describes as ?the letter that kills? [2 Cor. 3:6], but the law of circumcision and the other sacred rites which are now abolished" (The Spirit and the Letter 24 [A.D. 412]).

?
Pope Gregory I


"It has come to my ears that certain men of perverse spirit have sown among you some things that are wrong and opposed to the holy faith, so as to forbid any work being done on the Sabbath day. What else can I call these [men] but preachers of Antichrist, who when he comes will cause the Sabbath day as well as the Lord?s day to be kept free from all work. For because he [the Antichrist] pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord?s day to be held in reverence; and because he compels the people to Judaize that he may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the perfidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed. For this which is said by the prophet, ?You shall bring in no burden through your gates on the Sabbath day? [Jer. 17:24] could be held to as long as it was lawful for the law to be observed according to the letter. But after that the grace of almighty God, our Lord Jesus Christ, has appeared, the commandments of the law which were spoken figuratively cannot be kept according to the letter. For if anyone says that this about the Sabbath is to be kept, he must needs say that carnal sacrifices are to be offered. He must say too that the commandment about the circumcision of the body is still to be retained. But let him hear the apostle Paul saying in opposition to him: ?If you be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing? [Gal. 5:2]" (Letters 13:1 [A.D. 597]).

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
Reply
#38
Hello Alan G77,
You can believe whatever you like. As a friend, I answered politely for the good of you. As for Revelation 1:10, I know the answer for it. But I am not going to write anymore.
Reply
#39
Dear Alan G77,

Regarding the large contrast between your very "normal" views (on the place of Torah and Shabbat in the life of a Christian) and my very "minority" views, I am considering sending you a personal message rather than debating with you publicly. To continue the discussion here would seem off-topic from the purpose of the thread... and also potentially uncomfortable for anyone who may have just quoted many of their "church fathers" incorrectly and/or out-of-context. Nevertheless, if you insist on taking this position further in this thread, I will take that as a request for me to also discuss the ideas with you here and now.

I do have to take responsibility for derailing the thread in the 1st place - I can honestly say it was unintentional. I was taken off-guard by how much I related to some comments by konway87 and I responded with more enthusiasm than prudence. I should have been more circumspect. I apologize.

Going forward I hope we can reserve this thread for discussion of the actual original topic - found in the title, "Good Wednesday or Good Friday?"...

Have you more views to share on this topic?
Reply
#40
Guys, let me ask you something. Do the majority of Jewish people reject our (yours and mine) interpretation of the Old Testament, in relation to Yeshua?

Please answer me.
Reply
#41
Hello Alan G77,
Since you asked a question here, I will try to give a reply. Yes, I think so (but in a modern viewpoint). But I cannot give a strong answer here, because the difference between Old Testament used today (especially in English) and Old Testament used in the time of Jesus is very much like the difference between Red Sea and the Sea of Reeds.

As you know, Moses crossed the Sea of Reeds (Yama-Suph in Aramaic and Yam Suph in Hebrew). Not Red Sea. Today, Multitudes of Jews and Christians think Moses crossed Red Sea, instead of Reed Sea. The film "Ten Commandments" can be used as an example for Moses crossing Red Sea. So I am unable to give an answer in a majority view point.
Reply
#42
konway87 Wrote:Hello Alan G77,
Since you asked a question here, I will try to give a reply. Yes, I think so (but in a modern viewpoint). But I cannot give a strong answer here, because the difference between Old Testament used today (especially in English) and Old Testament used in the time of Jesus is very much like the difference between Red Sea and the Sea of Reeds.

As you know, Moses crossed the Sea of Reeds (Yama-Suph in Aramaic and Yam Suph in Hebrew). Not Red Sea. Today, Multitudes of Jews and Christians think Moses crossed Red Sea, instead of Reed Sea. The film "Ten Commandments" can be used as an example for Moses crossing Red Sea. So I am unable to give an answer in a majority view point.

So, acknowledging that the Jewish people almost 2000 years ago were unable to determine the correct interpretation of the most important and fundamental aspect of scripture (Yeshua) and that it was ultimately the Gentiles who were given the privilege of understanding the scriptures in their fullness, how do you expect us to forego 2000 years of theology, due solely to your background, whom didn't get it right the first time round.

Paul specifically states that Jews were trying to infiltrate the Christian community, why are you different to these corrupt men that Paul specifically warns us about? Paul explicitly and unequivocally states that we are no longer under the law! NO LONGER. Now, does the sabbath fall under the law? It certainly does, so therefore we do not observe the sabbath and this was the practice found in Acts and try as you may to spin certain verses to suit your preconceptions, the list above shows that the early Christians did not observe sabbath rest.

In order to apply your theology, it would constitute a real contradiction to the NT scriptures, which we know is unacceptable.

We have a couple of issues to contend with here, the first being the all too familiar issue that we Apostolics deal with everyday that being the Protestant problem, specifically the issue with sola scriptura. This is the method that you are employing, as you are inadvertently opposed to the Apostolic traditions, you to, fall under the Protestant umbrella.

The second issue is one I like to ask all non Apostolic Christians, if the earliest Churches got it wrong in such a short time span, then did Jesus fail in his mission? Either the Protestant movement in the 1600's was where we finally got it right, or if we are to take heed to the Messianic Jewish movement, Christ's mission was misunderstood up until very recently. I can not accept neither of these views and believe that both movements were not the work of God but of satan, satan confuses and divides and this is what we are witnessing here today.
Reply
#43
Hi Alan,

I would like to submit for your consideration an idea. Do a little bit of reading in History to see why reformation (protestant) movements had appeared. And keep in mind that most so called reformers never intended to form new movements but wanted to fix things inside the church. But they were EJECTED from the church. See how depraved and blatantly corrupt the established church has becomed and why movement of renewal had to come along. Then you might end up being a bit more careful with brandishing as Satanic various movements energized by the Holy Spirit of God. If it weren't for those who knows where we'd be today.

Although not so publicly known, similar movements were happening inside the established Orthodox church in Eastern Europe where I come from. If you are interested, I can go in details. One thing that was common to all. They never intended to leave the church. But they were forced out.... And the ferocious persecution they went through from the hand of church hierarchy, has nothing to do with Christianity. My grandparents had first had experience with it. We are talking about lifes wasted in prisons, brutal beatings and even killings.

Let's not be naive, simply by claming Apostolic authority doesn't do you anything. Walking in obedience to Mesiah is what matters. Jews were claming Abrahamic and Mosaic authority. Did it do them any good?

Let's learn from history. Churches and movements come and go, they start out well and then they get corrupted, they change. But the words of Jeshua stand forever, and that's the standard by which we as humans are being judged.

Love,
Greg
Reply
#44
Alan, and thanks for the great postings, especially the one on what Church Fathers taught about keeping the law and the Sabbath. They were very useful to me. Just that the thing mentioned about certain movements as being of Satan, stuck out like a sore thumb to me. Usually generalizing doesn't do justice well.
Reply
#45
Barota,

Do you believe I am so ignorant as to not understand what was occurring in the RCC? But let us also flip the coin here, Protestants were also persecuting Catholics and I don't doubt for a second that Protestants over exaggerate their claims. For instance, who fabricated the story regarding the RCC "debating" whether or not woman had souls in the 10th century?

You refer to the Holy Spirit of God being He who led the Protestant movement right? So let me ask you, which Protestant movement is correct? Jesus stated that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church and we can visibly examine that the Apostolic Churches have been through hell and back, yet their doors remain open. You aldo clao that similar movements were happening in the eastern churches? And? Does this necessitate truth? Many people were trying to corrupt the early Church and Paul and the other Apostles warned us against these wolves in sheep's clothing. But you are correct when stating Church movements come and go, but Apostolic Churches have seemingly bucked this trend. History does not lie.

Was the RCC going backwards? Yes, does that mean you can start your own Churches based on your interpretation of right and wrong? no. In fact there is a verse in the OT (I'll fish it out tomorrow) that explicitly states how Israel was in sin for heaping up priests for themselves.

G.K Chesterton stated it succinctly when he noted that nothing shattered Christianity like the reformation. I also find it funny that they label it the reformation, the Apostolic Churches were founded by, guess who? The Apostles! And as I have stated elsewhere, it is profound that Churches from different continents were practicing similar liturgies and held similar beliefs. The reformation should be labelled the "reshaping" as it took the core fundamental aspects of Christian doctrine and labelled them symbolic.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)