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John 3:13 says no.
And no man has ascended into Heaven except he who descended from Heaven. The Son of Man is he who is in Heaven.
2King 2:11 says yes!
As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated
the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
So....Does that mean Yeshua has ability to ascend(active behaviour) to heaven himself while Elijah was ascended(passive) with strength of God? <!-- s  --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt=" " title="Huh" /><!-- s -->
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Havah Wrote:John 3:13 says no.
And no man has ascended into Heaven except he who descended from Heaven. The Son of Man is he who is in Heaven.
2King 2:11 says yes!
As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated
the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
So....Does that mean Yeshua has ability to ascend(active behaviour) to heaven himself while Elijah was ascended(passive) with strength of God? <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt="" title="Huh" /><!-- s -->
I don't think Elijah ascended into Heaven, i.e. the abode of God, the Hebrew word can be translated as "sky" too, and I believe that is the implication of 2Kings 2:11, which is one of the favourite "proof" texts for the "rapture" doctrine (the other is Genesis 5:24 regarding Enoch):
Quote:Comments on Enoch & Elijah
Let's look at Enoch and Elijah. We know that "no man hath ascended up to heaven...." Yochanan 3:13. So how could Enoch or Elijah have ascended where man cannot go? They didn't.
Let's start with Enoch. Enoch was sixty-five when he had Methuselah; and then he walked with G-d for three-hundred more years; then the total of his days was three-hundred and sixty-five. "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." Genesis 5:24 G-d took him -- meaning he died. If you ask about my grandmother and I tell you the L-rd took her, surely you'd understand I mean that she has died. Compared to the others listed in this passage, Enoch was taken notably young. I'm inclined to agree with Rashi on this, Rashi interprets G-d took him as meaning before his time. Therefore, Enoch was taken before his time. Now Hebrews 11:5 states: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." Perhaps G-d took Enoch away and Enoch died elsewhere (as happened with Moshe -- the L-rd buried him). Or perhaps Enoch was translated straight to Sheol. But we know Enoch *did* die, because even in Hebrews, a few verses later after discussing these great men of faith, the writer concludes 13 "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." These all died, and that includes Enoch. They all died.
Now for Elijah:
"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2 Kings 2:11 This occurred during the reign of King Jehoshaphat. Yet Elijah writes King Jehorum a letter: "And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah." 2 Chronicles 21:12 Note that Jehorum's reign was AFTER Jehoshaphat's reign during which Elijah was translated! How did Elijah write this letter if he was translated away from earth some twenty years earlier? Because he wasn't translated *from* earth but to somewhere else *on* earth. 1 Kings 18:7-16 shows that G-d translated Elijah to other places on earth. In 1 Kings 18, Elijah asks Obadiah to tell Ahab that he is here. Obadiah balks to go with this report explaining: "After I leave you, the Spirit of the YHVH will carry you to some place I do not know, and when I go to inform Ahab and he does not find you, he will have me killed." Obadiah balked because he understood that G-d could translate Elijah from place to place; Obadiah refused to go to Ahab until Elijah assured him he wouldn't be translated to another place.
G-d can move/translate people from one place to another, let's look at another example:
"And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. Acts 8:39-40
All men died -- being translated meant being moved from one earthly place to another; saved from one situation by removing to another. It cannot mean that the person didn't later die or we make clear-cut Scripture a liar:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Romans 5:12
also:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27
Remember, *Yeshua* was the first-fruits (1 Cor 15:23) of the resurrection, not Enoch, not Elijah.
Citing from: Understanding The Post-Tribulation Rapture: Showing Problems with Dispensationalist Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory by Ellen Kavanaugh
Shalom, Shlama, Salaam & Yiasou.
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