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Luke 24:1
#61
Thirdwoe Wrote:...

Shuvah,

It is not clear from the words of the Gospel accounts exatly when Y'shua rose, but it seems to me that the earthquake and the stone rolling out of the way might have something to do with it....Find out about what time that happend and you may be pretty close...

As for the full 72 hour time frame, were you able to work that out with consideration of all the information from the Gospel accounts?

...

Yes. I only used the Gospel accounts for my timeline. The book I mentioned in the previous post (Modai Tishmoru) also has some very interesting information on this, with an interesting twist. (Anyone who might be interested can get a free copy of the book at <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.tushiyah.org">www.tushiyah.org</a><!-- w -->). Some things sound very far-fetched until one thoroughly investigates them, but I am not trying to promote the book.

At any rate, if the days go from sunset to sunset as tradition has us believe, it appears Y'Shua had to have been placed in the tomb before sunset on the day of His crucifixion and would have arisen just before sunset at the end of the Sabbath. However, if the days go from sunrise to sunrise, then (and it makes a little more sense to me now), He could have been placed in the tomb after sunset (giving more time for all the burial preparations to take place) and have arisen later in the night. But either way, it still comes out to three days and three nights (or just about 72 hours).

I think I was definitely on the right track, but perhaps just don't have the details exactly right.
#62
Shuva,

Hello there. My name is Mike Karoules and your investigation as to exactly when Y'shua died and rose again has been on my mind for quite a long time now. But just to throw another monkey wrench into the whole thing is the question if you are measuring a literal 24 hour (and literal 3 FULL days and 3 FULL nights) time period. Did Y'shua really mean that He would be in the tomb (or "heart of the earth" as He put it) for a literal - FULL 3 days and FULL 3 nights??

But also, could we not nail this down as to the precise day in which He Was crucified: like day after passover or the day after the day after the passover??

But we know that he had died on the preperation day. It says that but to me I have always wondered which preperation day the auther was talking about. But don't forget that the Sabbath in which Jesus was in the tomb was also a High Sabbath. I am not sure what that means other than that some important Jewish holiday fell on the 7th day Sabbath.

One more thing and not to give offense. But I think your basis for keeping the Sabbath is not too strong if you are basing it on which day Y'shua rose again. There are alot more rock solid reasons (from my knowledge anyway) from which to build one's basis for keeping the Sabbath.

Cordially,

Mike Karoules
Georgia
#63
Shuvah Wrote:
Dawid Wrote:Shuvah...please ignore the lunar Sabbath nonsense. It's completely un-historical.

Have you read Moadai Tishmoru (Rav. David Pollina)? I know everyone says forget about the Lunar Sabbath and when I first came across it, I did exactly that. What I had read about it to that point sounded pretty ridiculous to me too. But having nearly completed his book on the topic (200 pages), I can't dismiss it that easily. He makes a lot of sense and has Scripture to back up what he says. Perhaps you could point me to something that lays out an equally sound case from the opposite perspective? As I mentioned before, this is all very new to me, so it will take some time to sift through. I can't just dismiss something just because someone says don't go there. I'm sure you understand. My Christian friends would like to tell me I'm fallen from grace for keeping Torah.
I have not read his book. But, frankly, I've stopped reading fringe literature for the most part. I'm thankful for the likes of Michael Rood and Lew White or I would not be where I am today. But I found that I've also wasted a lot of time on them. I try to stick to the hard-core scholars these days. Men proven in the field. There's simply not enough time in our lives to spend going over every fringe element that has a point or three. I've read Philo's statements that appear to support a Lunar Sabbath, and besides being interesting, they do nothing in the way of proof.
If you would like to show me a few of his arguments I would be more than happy to answer them to the best of my ability. (though, I think the administration would prefer that we did that in private messages, rather than derailing this thread more than we already have. :-D)

Shalom uvrachot,
Dawid
#64
P.S. I am working on the problem of whether or not the Aramaic term here can mean "week" as well as "Sabbath." I'm looking for a reference that I remember seeing, but can't seem to find at the moment. lol. I haven't forgotten, I'm just wracking my brain for where it was. Looking through some books I've got. Hopefully I'll be able to give a definitive statement here soon.
#65
Mike Kar Wrote:Shuva,

Hello there. My name is Mike Karoules and your investigation as to exactly when Y'shua died and rose again has been on my mind for quite a long time now. But just to throw another monkey wrench into the whole thing is the question if you are measuring a literal 24 hour (and literal 3 FULL days and 3 FULL nights) time period. Did Y'shua really mean that He would be in the tomb (or "heart of the earth" as He put it) for a literal - FULL 3 days and FULL 3 nights??

But also, could we not nail this down as to the precise day in which He Was crucified: like day after passover or the day after the day after the passover??

But we know that he had died on the preperation day. It says that but to me I have always wondered which preperation day the auther was talking about. But don't forget that the Sabbath in which Jesus was in the tomb was also a High Sabbath. I am not sure what that means other than that some important Jewish holiday fell on the 7th day Sabbath.

One more thing and not to give offense. But I think your basis for keeping the Sabbath is not too strong if you are basing it on which day Y'shua rose again. There are alot more rock solid reasons (from my knowledge anyway) from which to build one's basis for keeping the Sabbath.

Cordially,

Mike Karoules
Georgia

Good evening Mike,

Yes, my study showed that it was a literal three days and three nights; 72 hours. One of the things I discovered is that if you say "three days," it could be parts of days, but if you say "three days and three nights," it is a Hebrew idiom that means full days and full nights. My recollection is that Bullinger's book on "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible" was my resource for this.

My study showed that Y'Shua was crucified on Preparation day, yes.

As far as Him rising from the dead at the end of the Sabbath being the only thing that changed my point of view, no, it wasn't just that. But that was like the key in the lock, so to speak. From there, I went to secular history to see where and why and by whose authority the fourth commandment was tossed out and the first day of the week was substututed. Prior to that, I knew very little about Constantine or any of the secular history of that time period.

I would love to put all my notes together in a readable format to share. I started to do it initially, but so many new things were coming my way all at once that I just didn't have time. It was settled in my mind, so I wanted to search out the new things I was learning. For instance, I figured out early on that the Feasts held the key to a LOT, so I wanted to learn more about those. Anyway, I'll definitely try to put it into some kind of format that I can share, but it will probably take some time. Discovering people who are actually interested in it is a brand new thing to me! <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

But keep in mind, I am not a scholar! I apparently arrived where I am supposed to be in the grand scheme of things, but I may have arrived by faulty reasoning. I am more than happy to share what I found, but not confident that it will be meaningful for anyone else, if that makes sense. I'm still a major work in progress!
#66
...

Hi Dawid,

If the day before the weekly Sabbath is called the "preperation" because it was the day before the weekly Sabbath, could this term also refer to the other days of rest or festival Sabbath's like the Passover/Unleavened Bread festival, when Nissan 14 did not fall upon a weekly Sabbath...

...
#67
Dawid Wrote:
Shuvah Wrote:
Dawid Wrote:Shuvah...please ignore the lunar Sabbath nonsense. It's completely un-historical.

Have you read Moadai Tishmoru (Rav. David Pollina)? I know everyone says forget about the Lunar Sabbath and when I first came across it, I did exactly that. What I had read about it to that point sounded pretty ridiculous to me too. But having nearly completed his book on the topic (200 pages), I can't dismiss it that easily. He makes a lot of sense and has Scripture to back up what he says. Perhaps you could point me to something that lays out an equally sound case from the opposite perspective? As I mentioned before, this is all very new to me, so it will take some time to sift through. I can't just dismiss something just because someone says don't go there. I'm sure you understand. My Christian friends would like to tell me I'm fallen from grace for keeping Torah.
I have not read his book. But, frankly, I've stopped reading fringe literature for the most part. I'm thankful for the likes of Michael Rood and Lew White or I would not be where I am today. But I found that I've also wasted a lot of time on them. I try to stick to the hard-core scholars these days. Men proven in the field. There's simply not enough time in our lives to spend going over every fringe element that has a point or three. I've read Philo's statements that appear to support a Lunar Sabbath, and besides being interesting, they do nothing in the way of proof.
If you would like to show me a few of his arguments I would be more than happy to answer them to the best of my ability. (though, I think the administration would prefer that we did that in private messages, rather than derailing this thread more than we already have. :-D)

Shalom uvrachot,
Dawid

Shalom Dawid,

I don't think I would call it fringe. Again, it is not my purpose to try to influence anyone in either direction. I'm an avid reader and I've read well written books and poorly written books. This one, IMHO, is VERY well written. I have NOT read any other books on the Lunar Sabbath, but this one has a great deal in the way of proof, so you would not be disappointed. It wouldn't do tbe topic justice for me to pull a few things out to share. It would be like quoting somthing out of context and that's just not a good way to examine things. The book is available free as an E-Book upon request. I believe it would be worth your time to read, if for no other reason than to show you that even a very well-written, well-documented book can't tear a hole in the 7-day week. Personally, I cannot easily dismiss it. There may be other books on the same topic I would toss on a heap, but not this one. It's different.

I don't want to derail the thread either. I've already posted way more than I initially intended to. I'd like to just "lurk" in the shadows for awhile. I am sure I can learn a lot by just "listening"!

Shavua'tov!
#68
Shavuah, a number of my friends have recently read a well-written "well-documented" book called "The Mythmaker" by Hyam Maccoby. It's absolute bunk, but they took the bait. There are many books that are very well written, but are still wrong.
#69
The reference I thought I new of on this issue does not actually address it. It actually just says ?????? ?????? ?????????? So that's not really related. It was from 11QJN.
I do realise that this is a different dialect of Aramaic from the Peshitta, but I think that to find a Judean Aramaic text that used Shabbat idiomatically for "week" would be very strong evidence that it was common useage in that time. I don't think it would reduce the forcefulness of the point any at all because with Judean Aramaic being so heavily influenced by Hebrew we would expect its useage to be far more Hebrew and more Biblical. So we would not expect to see the term Shabbat used this way as much as we might expect to see it in Syriac.
#70
Shlama Akhi Abudar2000 or Keefa-morun ( whichever you prefer to be known by),

Thank you for post on Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:59 am. I have been somewhat busy, hence my delay in responding. I appreciate your comments all of which I agree with. However, please bear in mind that your comments do not demonstrate that days were counted in respect of Sabbath, this is specifically why I asked for a biblical reference. Various people on this thread have already tried to demonstrate that Sabbath means week, to this I have already responded and continue to respond.

Shlama w???burkate

Claud.
#71
...

Cluad,

Can you please tell me what this understanding you have does for anyone? To what end does this exercise arrive? Should we change something we do now to something else, and if so, how does this make anything better as to our standing with God?

...
#72
Shlama Akhi Thirdwoe,

Quote:Can you please tell me what this understanding you have does for anyone?

I believe in the primacy of aramaic scripture , however, the Aramaic or Hebrew originals to the gospels, remain yet undiscovered, all were most likely destroyed by the Romans or Ecclesiastical Authorities. The Latin, Syriac and Coptic versions are unquestionably made directly from the Greek" (NA-27th, pg. 63*, Novum TestamentumGraece). The extant Syriac MSS were not made before the fifth century, and it is clear that the translators used the oral tradition of the "first day of the week" and the chronological misunderstanding to translate "first in the seven" in much the same way that Catholic missionaries translate "first day of the week" today. Any MSS reading "one of the Sabbaths" in a version of Aramaic would have been destroyed by Ecclesiastical authorities on the assumption that it was a heretical production of a small sect of Judaizers and not in line with Church doctrine. Such an artifact would lie too close to the original text for them to tolerate.

Quote:To what end does this exercise arrive?

Almost the entire Christian world celebrates Sunday as their day of worship in place of the 7th-day Sabbath God instituted at creation (Gen. 2:2-3). They justify doing this because they believe that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead on this day.

Quote:Should we change something we do now to something else, and if so, how does this make anything better as to our standing with God?

It is entirely up to individual. I'm not here to judge anyone, I'm simply making a point and putting information out there. The whole point of my thread was not threaten the aramaic primacy, but to try and highlight the extant aramaic scriptures that we do have are only copies of earlier greek mss which are most likey copies themesleves of aramaic originals. The real sticking point has been is that I am suggesting something has been lost in the translation, ie "one of the sabbaths" has been changed to "first day of the week", as a result this has had profound effect on how people to chosen to worship God. Will any of this affect peoples standing with God, I cannot answer this for only God knows.

Shlama w???burkate

Claud.
#73
Shlama Akhi Dawid,

Quote:I'm going to get back with you on this, because I think I can provide such a reference when I'm not hurrying to get ready for Shabbat. However, for the moment I would like to point out a few things:
If this was "at the beginning of the Sabbath" as you suggest, then why do some accounts say "before dawn" since the beginning of Shabbat would be in the evening?

I have never suggested it was at the beginning of Sabbath, If you read my post Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:24 am you will see that I said Sabbath morning, which I am sure you will agree is quite a different from the beginning of Sabbath.

Quote:Why were the women going to the tomb on Shabbat? Wouldn't that be a violation of Shabbat?

You would not be the first person to raise the objection that the women could not have gone to anoint Yeshua's body on the weekly Sabbath because it would have been against the Law (Exo. 20:8-11; Deu. 5:12-15). The Jewish Mishnah (which records the oral law as it would have been observed in Yeshua's day) addresses the legality of anointing a dead body on a weekly Sabbath. This is what the Mishnah says would have been allowed:
A. They prepare all that is needed for a corpse.
B. They anoint and rinse it,
C. on condition that they not move any limb of the corpse.
D. They remove the mattress from under it.
E. And they put on [cool] sand so that it will keep.
F. They tie the chin,
G. not so that it will go up, but so that it will not droop [further].
H. And so in the case of a beam which broke ???
I. they support it with a bench or the seams of a bed,
J. not so that it will go up, but so that it will not droop [further].
K. They do not close the eyes of a corpse on the Sabbath,
L. nor on an ordinary day at the moment the soul goes forth.
M. And he who closes the eyes of a corpse at the moment the soul goes forth, lo, this one sheds blood. (p. 207, The Mishnah, A New Translation, Shabbat 23:5)
The women rested according to the Law on the Passover Sabbath (Lev. 23:6-7), but they had legal justification to go to the tomb on the weekly Sabbath. It was the Jewish custom (in fact, an obligation) for grieving friends and relatives to go to a grave on the third day to pay last respects. It was at this point in time that death was considered permanent. So a Sabbath morning visit to Yeshua's tomb by the women for the purpose of anointing his body would have been in accord with the Jewish oral law and would not have broken the Sabbath commandment (Exo. 20:8-11).


Quote:Just one more thing. A reference from the TN"K will not actually apply in this case

I???m not sure what you mean? and what is TN"K short for is it tanakh?



In respect of your most recent post Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:25 pm. I would like to submit the following:
Many Church scholars argue that the phrase "first day of the week" was based on the Jewish method of counting days of the week in respect of Sabbath
They cite the late Talmudic phrase for first day in the week ???? ???????????? and claim that this justifies the sense of "week" for the word "Sabbath" in the enumeration of the days of the week. Indeed, the Talmud does have a method for enumerating the days of the week, but the usages tell a different story to the glottochronologist ( a linguist who studies the history of changes in languages)

The Talmudic idiom ???? ???????????? is an Aramaic dialect. So also the rest of the days of the week:
1.?????? ?????????? on one in the week*
2. ???????? ?????????? on second in the week*
3.?????????? ?????????? on third in the week*
4.???????????? ?????????? on fourth in the week*
5. ???????????? ?????????? on fifth in the week*
6. ?????????? ?????????? on preparation to Sabbath
7. ???????????? on the Sabbath
What should first be observed is that ?? is rejected in the forms for days one to five. In a few cases the ?? is retained(e.g. Shabbat and preparation to Shabbat)



The form ???????? does not originate with Shabbat .It derives from the Aramaic word for "seven" ???????? only with an ?? exchanged for ??. This is an alternate spelling of the Aramaic for "seven,". Therefore, the usage ?????????? ?????? in the Talmud is literally "one in the seven" and not "one in the *Sabbath"!
Furthermore, this is proved by the reintroduction of the ?? on day six ?????????? ?????????? means "on preparation of sabbath". Notice that the preposition ?? is missing also, because the word ??????????means "Sabbath". Likewise, ????????????means "on Sabbath".
The same rejection of the final tav (??) occurs in Chaldee Syriac (???????? ?????? one in seven vs. ???????? Sabbath) and Ancient Syriac (?????? ???????????? vs.????????????)
The Targum of the dialect of the Jews of Kurdistan explicitly counts in the same fashion, "one day in the seven,"
(,???????? ??????????????) "two in the seven"(?????????????? s ??????????)etc. The lack of the final tav in all the usages of counting is the proverbial smoking gun. It shows that the popular spoken dialects rejected the idea of counting days of the week to the Sabbath, and that such countings were with respect to the word "week" or "seven" and not the Sabbath.

The Aramaic or Hebrew originals to the gospels, remain yet undiscovered, all were most likely destroyed by the Romans or Ecclesiastical Authorities. The Latin, Syriac and Coptic versions are unquestionably made directly from the Greek" (NA-27th, pg. 63*, Novum TestamentumGraece). The extant Syriac MSS were not made before the fifth century, and it is clear that the translators used the oral tradition of the "first day of the week" and the chronological misunderstanding to translate "first in the seven" in much the same way that Catholic missionaries translate "first day of the week" today. Any MSS reading "one of the Sabbaths" in a version of Aramaic would have been destroyed by Ecclesiastical authorities on the assumption that it was a heretical production of a small sect of Judaizers and not in line with Church doctrine. Such an artifact would lie too close to the original text for them to tolerate. On the other hand, the same could be tolerated in Latin, e.g. prima autem sabbatorum, because it was not Hebrew and was already sold to the flock as a Hebrew method of reckoning the week without significant fear that anyone could double check it. Such was not possible in Aramaic. An accurate translation in Aramaic would betray no ability to mean "first day of the week", and would have to be destroyed to be successfully repressed.

Shlama w???burkate

Claud.
#74
Shlama Forum:
This thread has gone far enough. Dayeynu.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver
(Moderator)


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