12-28-2008, 10:55 PM
Shlama Akhi Paul,
OK , I will accept what you say about the extra participle ???men???, you have explained it well, and it seems to make sense.
However, the reason why I raised the issue was because when you use the Dukhrana Analytical Lexicon of the Syriac New Testament to search for the English word Sabbath, then you look at all the inflected forms one of the inflected forms is
b$b` - ????????
ID Category Lexeme Root Meaning Origin Peshitta NT
20618 Noun $bt` ???????? $bt` ???????? Sabbath - show verses
Word Morphological information Suffix information
Vocalised Syriac Person Gender Number State Tense Form Enclitic Person Gender Number
b'$ab'a` ???????????????? - Feminine Singular Emphatic - - No - - -
when you check the verses the word turns up in they are as below,
Peshitta verses that contains ????????????????
Matthew 28:1 - ???????????????? ?????????? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ???????????? ?????????????????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????? ??
Mark 16:2 - ?????????????????? ?????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ?????????????? ???????????????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????????? ??
Mark 16:9 - ?????????????????? ?????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ?????? ?????????????????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????????????????? ?????? ?????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ?????????? ??
Luke 24:1 - ???????????? ???????????????? ?????????? ?????????????????? ???????? ?????????????? ???????????? ?????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ?????????? ???????????? ?????????? ?????????????? ?????????? ???????????????????????? ??
John 20:1 - ???????????? ???????????????? ?????????? ?????????????? ???????????? ?????????????????????????? ?????????????????? ???????? ?????????????? ?????????????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????????? ???????????????????? ?????? ?????????????? ??
John 20:19 - ?????????? ???????? ?????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ?????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????? ?????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????????????????? ?????????? ?????????????????????? ?????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????? ???????????????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ??
Acts 20:7 - ???????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ?????????? ?????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ?????????????? ???????????????? ?????????? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ?????????? ?????????????????? ?????? ?????????????? ?????????? ???????????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????????? ???????????????? ??
1Corinthians 16:2 - ???????????? ???????? ???????????????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ???????????? ?????? ???????????? ?????????????? ???????????????????????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????????????? ??
________________________________________
When one searches for the English word week no equivalent is found.
When one searches for the English word seven, and checks all the various inflected forms none of them appear in the verses mentioned above.
You contend that Sunday - "Khad b'Shabba" is (one~first of seven~week) and that is found in the above verses.
However from the lexicon your contention is not validated.
You will perhaps say to me that my understanding of the lexicon is incorrect, if this so, how should I understand the lexicon?
So hopefully now understand why I asked the question, 1) Can you explain to me why ?????????????????? shaba aramaic number seven)
Is not present in the text of Luke 24:1 or for that matter MATTHEW 28:1, MARK 16:2,John 20:1, John 20:19, Acts 20:7, 1Corinthians 16:2 .
Therefore simply retorting ???In Matthew 28:1, John 20:1, John 20:19, Acts 20:7 and 1Cor. 16:2 the word used is "Khad b-Shabba", "first of the week".....what's your point? Can you actually read the Aramaic, or are you just wasting my time???? is not really helpful because it does not explain the differences in the lexical definitions which I have raised above..
When I asked ???What mechanism within Aramaic gives you the licence to change ???one??? ???? to first ?????????????? . What I am actually saying to you is that in all the verses we have been referring to, the expression ???one??? ???? is used and not first ?????????????? You have either completely missed the point of what I am saying or you have chosen to deliberately misrepresent what I have said.
You said ???What? Are you drunk, or something? Seriously dude.??? I am stone cold sober and as serious as a judge.
You said ???I don't know why I'm wasting my time here but you are so pathetically uneducated on this topic, this is funny. Who changed Khad to Qadmaya? Why does that matter????
From the outset I have said to you the Aramaic was new to me, your continual bashing of me on this point is particularly sad because this is something we both know, but you continue to use it as some sort of point scoring mechanism.
For the avoidance of doubt and for the purposes of clarity, the reason why it matters is because you chosen to render certain texts as you to consider fit to render them, your rendering appears to be at odds with what is actually written in the peshitta based on an understanding from the lexicon. If you can reconcile your rendering with what is in the lexicon, then I will accept what you are saying.
You said, "In English, don't you have multiple ways of saying the same thing...."first?"
How about these examples in English:
(a) Rule One
(b) The Primary Rule
© The First Rule
(d) The Foremost Rule
(e) The Preeminent Rule
Why does the fact that Aramaic has multiple ways of saying "first", or multiple ways to count the number of the days of the week, surprise you? Why can't you say "day two" instead of Monday, or "the day after Sunday"....., or "2 of seven", or "6 days before Sunday?"
Yet again Paul you have either missed the point or deliberately chosen to misrepresent it. I am not disputing the fact that there are multiple ways to say the same thing. What I am saying is based on the definition of the words used in the lexicon, you have chosen a similar but different word.
I said ???3)What biblical evidence do you have that "week" means Sabbath? And before you rush to tell me Leviticus 23:15 everybody knows that there are seven days between one sabbath and another, but this does not mean a Sabbath means a week, it simply means there seven days between Sabbaths.
(I hope that wasn???t too FBI for you.)
You said, ???Trust me dude, nothing you can write is too "FBI" for me. ???
From this statement alone it is clear you do not understand me. The FBI reference was to an earlier comment you made about my level of questioning being was akin to being interrogated by the FBI, your response reads clearly reads as though there is no question that I could ask you in this field which you could not answer,
When in actual fact what I am saying is I hope that you do not consider that I am asking you the same question OVER and OVER again in an attempt to wear you down.
This is symptomatic of the type of response you give. You jump to conclusions, then answer based on your incorrect understanding of the question.
You said, ???Why don't you go and ask any Jew what "Shavuah Tov" means, ok????
I did, in fact I asked a rabbi and the answer I got was ??? Shavua Tov in english literally means good week. It is a greeting is used after havdalah the ceremony that marks the conclusion of Shabbat, to wish someone a good forthcoming week.
Paul, pray tell, how does this answer the question what biblical evidence do you have that "week" means Sabbath?
You said ???Question 2: In 1Cor. 16:2, Paul instructs them "every" ("kul") Khad b-Shabba. How does this fit in with the once-a-year scenario, verses their weekly gatherings? I answered: The ???kul??? ???every??? refers to persons present rather than time or event. This can be clearly be seen in Dr. John Wesley Etheridge translation from the peshitta despite the fact he renders Sabbath as first day of the week.
You said ???That's impossible because the word "Kul" appears right before the noun which it acts upon, which is "khad b'shabba". Etheridge translated "kul"as "each"....which is the same thing in English as "every", are you sure you even understand English? Or, since your name is Claud, are you a Frenchman or something????
I concede that you are correct in respect of the usage of the word ???kul???. However, the seven Sabbaths counted to the feast of weeks is not strictly speaking a once-a-year ???scenario, it is a seven times a year. It is possible that the ???kul??? is referring to each and everyone of those remaining Sabbaths. The curious thing though is that this text reads completely different in greek ( refer to the thread I posted Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:29 am ). By the way I do understand English and I am not French, I am in fact English if I were French Claud would most likely have an ???e??? on the end, not that this has any bearing on the discussion. I would prefer it in future if you left your prejudices out of the discussion, ie just because you think I may be French, this would somehow be a reason for me not to understand English)
The beginning of Acts 20:7 is literally translated day] ????????????????????[one] ??????????[sabbath]???????????????? , this not my opinion this what the lexicon tells me, again if you able to clearly reconcile your understanding of first of seven in the is text with what the lexicon says then as I said before then I will accept what you say.
As you have seen already I have accepted a couple of points which you have made, perhaps I???m not as dogmatic as you might think. <!-- s
--><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s -->
You said, ???Again, I repeat my question to you which you still have not answered:
Which "First among Sabbaths", or "One of the Sabbaths" was being referred to in Acts 20:7 ????
The question you asked previously was Which Khad b-Shabba is being referred to in Acts 20:5-7? To which I gave a perfectly clear answer; No Khad b-Shabba is being referred to in Acts 20:5-7.
The question has now been modified from Khad b-Shabba to "First among Sabbaths", or "One of the Sabbaths" was being referred to in Acts 20:7 ???? Answer: The first thing to recognise which I believe you have, is that text cannot be referring to one of the Sabbaths which was the first sabbath after Passover as in Luke 24:1. The reality is we are not told specifically which Sabbath it was but, by inference as you have shown one of the Sabbaths could refer to the 4th Sabbath after the Passover. Why, knowing exactly which Sabbath is of such great significance to you is unclear!
You said, ???Another thing you don't understand, apparently. Sunday is not the only day of the week we call "(number) of the week"....or "(number) of seven???
Sunday - "Khad b'Shabba" (one~first of seven~week)
Monday - "Treyn b'Shabba" (two~second of seven~week)
Tuesday - "Tlatha b'Shabba" (three-third of seven~week)
Wednesday - "Arba b-Shabba" (four~fourth of seven~week)
Thursday - "Khamesha b-Shabba" (five-fifth of seven~week)
Friday - "Shtaa b'Shabba" (six~sixth of seven~week) (we call this day "Arubta", "preparation")
Saturday - "Shabba b'Shaba" (seven~seventh of seven~week) (we call this day "Shabtha", "Sabbath")
I fully understand what you are saying, however for me to accept what you are saying you need to demonstrate that the language as you currently understand it now was in use at the time the gospels were written 1st century CE. I am sure I do not need to remind you that Aramaic spoken a 1000 years ago, never mind 2000 years ago! was different not to mention the various dialects . As I said before one only has to look at english over the last 500 years to see how much that has changed, and in linguistic terms english to aramaic is a mere infant.
You said , ???What doesn't work, what is impossible, is to render "Khad b-Shabba" to mean "the first sabbath", "sabbath one", "one of the sabbaths" or any such nonsense. It doesn't work grammatically.???
You may well be correct which is why I have said all along that ???Khad b-Shabba??? is not found in the text of Luke 24:1
Again, if you can reconcile your rendering with what is in the Dukhrana Analytical Lexicon of the Syriac New Testament then I will accept what you are saying. It would be helpful to me if you move away from using your transliteration ???Khad b-Shabba??? and use the exact words as they appear in Aramaic text giving the exact meaning for each word in english, as this is essentially what I have done when I used the lexicon.
Shlama w???burkate
Claud.
OK , I will accept what you say about the extra participle ???men???, you have explained it well, and it seems to make sense.
However, the reason why I raised the issue was because when you use the Dukhrana Analytical Lexicon of the Syriac New Testament to search for the English word Sabbath, then you look at all the inflected forms one of the inflected forms is
b$b` - ????????
ID Category Lexeme Root Meaning Origin Peshitta NT
20618 Noun $bt` ???????? $bt` ???????? Sabbath - show verses
Word Morphological information Suffix information
Vocalised Syriac Person Gender Number State Tense Form Enclitic Person Gender Number
b'$ab'a` ???????????????? - Feminine Singular Emphatic - - No - - -
when you check the verses the word turns up in they are as below,
Peshitta verses that contains ????????????????
Matthew 28:1 - ???????????????? ?????????? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ???????????? ?????????????????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????? ??
Mark 16:2 - ?????????????????? ?????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ?????????????? ???????????????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????????? ??
Mark 16:9 - ?????????????????? ?????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ?????? ?????????????????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????????????????? ?????? ?????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ?????????? ??
Luke 24:1 - ???????????? ???????????????? ?????????? ?????????????????? ???????? ?????????????? ???????????? ?????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ?????????? ???????????? ?????????? ?????????????? ?????????? ???????????????????????? ??
John 20:1 - ???????????? ???????????????? ?????????? ?????????????? ???????????? ?????????????????????????? ?????????????????? ???????? ?????????????? ?????????????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????????? ???????????????????? ?????? ?????????????? ??
John 20:19 - ?????????? ???????? ?????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ?????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????? ?????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????????????????? ?????????? ?????????????????????? ?????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????? ???????????????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ??
Acts 20:7 - ???????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ?????????? ?????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ?????????????? ???????????????? ?????????? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ?????????? ?????????????????? ?????? ?????????????? ?????????? ???????????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????????? ???????????????? ??
1Corinthians 16:2 - ???????????? ???????? ???????????????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ???????????? ?????? ???????????? ?????????????? ???????????????????????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????????????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????????????? ??
________________________________________
When one searches for the English word week no equivalent is found.
When one searches for the English word seven, and checks all the various inflected forms none of them appear in the verses mentioned above.
You contend that Sunday - "Khad b'Shabba" is (one~first of seven~week) and that is found in the above verses.
However from the lexicon your contention is not validated.
You will perhaps say to me that my understanding of the lexicon is incorrect, if this so, how should I understand the lexicon?
So hopefully now understand why I asked the question, 1) Can you explain to me why ?????????????????? shaba aramaic number seven)
Is not present in the text of Luke 24:1 or for that matter MATTHEW 28:1, MARK 16:2,John 20:1, John 20:19, Acts 20:7, 1Corinthians 16:2 .
Therefore simply retorting ???In Matthew 28:1, John 20:1, John 20:19, Acts 20:7 and 1Cor. 16:2 the word used is "Khad b-Shabba", "first of the week".....what's your point? Can you actually read the Aramaic, or are you just wasting my time???? is not really helpful because it does not explain the differences in the lexical definitions which I have raised above..
When I asked ???What mechanism within Aramaic gives you the licence to change ???one??? ???? to first ?????????????? . What I am actually saying to you is that in all the verses we have been referring to, the expression ???one??? ???? is used and not first ?????????????? You have either completely missed the point of what I am saying or you have chosen to deliberately misrepresent what I have said.
You said ???What? Are you drunk, or something? Seriously dude.??? I am stone cold sober and as serious as a judge.
You said ???I don't know why I'm wasting my time here but you are so pathetically uneducated on this topic, this is funny. Who changed Khad to Qadmaya? Why does that matter????
From the outset I have said to you the Aramaic was new to me, your continual bashing of me on this point is particularly sad because this is something we both know, but you continue to use it as some sort of point scoring mechanism.
For the avoidance of doubt and for the purposes of clarity, the reason why it matters is because you chosen to render certain texts as you to consider fit to render them, your rendering appears to be at odds with what is actually written in the peshitta based on an understanding from the lexicon. If you can reconcile your rendering with what is in the lexicon, then I will accept what you are saying.
You said, "In English, don't you have multiple ways of saying the same thing...."first?"
How about these examples in English:
(a) Rule One
(b) The Primary Rule
© The First Rule
(d) The Foremost Rule
(e) The Preeminent Rule
Why does the fact that Aramaic has multiple ways of saying "first", or multiple ways to count the number of the days of the week, surprise you? Why can't you say "day two" instead of Monday, or "the day after Sunday"....., or "2 of seven", or "6 days before Sunday?"
Yet again Paul you have either missed the point or deliberately chosen to misrepresent it. I am not disputing the fact that there are multiple ways to say the same thing. What I am saying is based on the definition of the words used in the lexicon, you have chosen a similar but different word.
I said ???3)What biblical evidence do you have that "week" means Sabbath? And before you rush to tell me Leviticus 23:15 everybody knows that there are seven days between one sabbath and another, but this does not mean a Sabbath means a week, it simply means there seven days between Sabbaths.
(I hope that wasn???t too FBI for you.)
You said, ???Trust me dude, nothing you can write is too "FBI" for me. ???
From this statement alone it is clear you do not understand me. The FBI reference was to an earlier comment you made about my level of questioning being was akin to being interrogated by the FBI, your response reads clearly reads as though there is no question that I could ask you in this field which you could not answer,
When in actual fact what I am saying is I hope that you do not consider that I am asking you the same question OVER and OVER again in an attempt to wear you down.
This is symptomatic of the type of response you give. You jump to conclusions, then answer based on your incorrect understanding of the question.
You said, ???Why don't you go and ask any Jew what "Shavuah Tov" means, ok????
I did, in fact I asked a rabbi and the answer I got was ??? Shavua Tov in english literally means good week. It is a greeting is used after havdalah the ceremony that marks the conclusion of Shabbat, to wish someone a good forthcoming week.
Paul, pray tell, how does this answer the question what biblical evidence do you have that "week" means Sabbath?
You said ???Question 2: In 1Cor. 16:2, Paul instructs them "every" ("kul") Khad b-Shabba. How does this fit in with the once-a-year scenario, verses their weekly gatherings? I answered: The ???kul??? ???every??? refers to persons present rather than time or event. This can be clearly be seen in Dr. John Wesley Etheridge translation from the peshitta despite the fact he renders Sabbath as first day of the week.
You said ???That's impossible because the word "Kul" appears right before the noun which it acts upon, which is "khad b'shabba". Etheridge translated "kul"as "each"....which is the same thing in English as "every", are you sure you even understand English? Or, since your name is Claud, are you a Frenchman or something????
I concede that you are correct in respect of the usage of the word ???kul???. However, the seven Sabbaths counted to the feast of weeks is not strictly speaking a once-a-year ???scenario, it is a seven times a year. It is possible that the ???kul??? is referring to each and everyone of those remaining Sabbaths. The curious thing though is that this text reads completely different in greek ( refer to the thread I posted Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:29 am ). By the way I do understand English and I am not French, I am in fact English if I were French Claud would most likely have an ???e??? on the end, not that this has any bearing on the discussion. I would prefer it in future if you left your prejudices out of the discussion, ie just because you think I may be French, this would somehow be a reason for me not to understand English)
The beginning of Acts 20:7 is literally translated day] ????????????????????[one] ??????????[sabbath]???????????????? , this not my opinion this what the lexicon tells me, again if you able to clearly reconcile your understanding of first of seven in the is text with what the lexicon says then as I said before then I will accept what you say.
As you have seen already I have accepted a couple of points which you have made, perhaps I???m not as dogmatic as you might think. <!-- s
--><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s --> You said, ???Again, I repeat my question to you which you still have not answered:
Which "First among Sabbaths", or "One of the Sabbaths" was being referred to in Acts 20:7 ????
The question you asked previously was Which Khad b-Shabba is being referred to in Acts 20:5-7? To which I gave a perfectly clear answer; No Khad b-Shabba is being referred to in Acts 20:5-7.
The question has now been modified from Khad b-Shabba to "First among Sabbaths", or "One of the Sabbaths" was being referred to in Acts 20:7 ???? Answer: The first thing to recognise which I believe you have, is that text cannot be referring to one of the Sabbaths which was the first sabbath after Passover as in Luke 24:1. The reality is we are not told specifically which Sabbath it was but, by inference as you have shown one of the Sabbaths could refer to the 4th Sabbath after the Passover. Why, knowing exactly which Sabbath is of such great significance to you is unclear!
You said, ???Another thing you don't understand, apparently. Sunday is not the only day of the week we call "(number) of the week"....or "(number) of seven???
Sunday - "Khad b'Shabba" (one~first of seven~week)
Monday - "Treyn b'Shabba" (two~second of seven~week)
Tuesday - "Tlatha b'Shabba" (three-third of seven~week)
Wednesday - "Arba b-Shabba" (four~fourth of seven~week)
Thursday - "Khamesha b-Shabba" (five-fifth of seven~week)
Friday - "Shtaa b'Shabba" (six~sixth of seven~week) (we call this day "Arubta", "preparation")
Saturday - "Shabba b'Shaba" (seven~seventh of seven~week) (we call this day "Shabtha", "Sabbath")
I fully understand what you are saying, however for me to accept what you are saying you need to demonstrate that the language as you currently understand it now was in use at the time the gospels were written 1st century CE. I am sure I do not need to remind you that Aramaic spoken a 1000 years ago, never mind 2000 years ago! was different not to mention the various dialects . As I said before one only has to look at english over the last 500 years to see how much that has changed, and in linguistic terms english to aramaic is a mere infant.
You said , ???What doesn't work, what is impossible, is to render "Khad b-Shabba" to mean "the first sabbath", "sabbath one", "one of the sabbaths" or any such nonsense. It doesn't work grammatically.???
You may well be correct which is why I have said all along that ???Khad b-Shabba??? is not found in the text of Luke 24:1
Again, if you can reconcile your rendering with what is in the Dukhrana Analytical Lexicon of the Syriac New Testament then I will accept what you are saying. It would be helpful to me if you move away from using your transliteration ???Khad b-Shabba??? and use the exact words as they appear in Aramaic text giving the exact meaning for each word in english, as this is essentially what I have done when I used the lexicon.
Shlama w???burkate
Claud.