Luke 24:1

[Paul Younan]

Shlama Akhi Stephen,

Since the thread does deal with Aramaic, despite its heavy dogmatic undertone, I would keep it active. Unless you disagree, please do not delete.

Akhi Claud,

You asked:

However, you do raise an interesting point, the extra participle ???men??? which you seem to suggest signifies ???of the???, is not present in ??? Khad b- shabba??? which you claim s first day of the week, why would this be?

That's because in Aramaic, unlike English, there are two ways to say "of." Follow me here because you need to see the distinction to see why this doesn't work in Aramaic:

Khad b- Shabba (first of the Week)
Khad men Shawathe (one of the Sabbaths)

Even though the Khad remains the same, if the contextual meaning of Khad is "first of" something, in the sense of order, then it is followed by a Beth ("b-") Proclitic. Here are some other examples:

Khad b-Shate (first of the hours)
Khad b-Shlikhe (first of the Apostles)

If the contextual meaning is "one of ....(many,several,etc)", as opposed to the very first, then rather than being followed by a Beth Proclitic, it is followed by a "men", here are some examples:

Khad men Malke d'Ashur (one of the Kings of Assyria)
Khad men Yome d'Eida (one of the days of the holiday)
Khad men Bethwathe b'qreetha (one of the houses in the village)

If you are proposing the meaning of "Khad b-Shabba" to mean "One of the Sabbaths", then that does not work because it makes absolutely no sense in Aramaic and to be brutally honest with you if you were to show up to a gathering of Aramaic speakers and talk like that they would laugh at you. I don't think you realize how silly this sounds.

If you are proposing the meaning of "Khad b-Shabba" to mean "First of the Sabbaths", that would not violate the rules explained above, however it would break another rule in an equally ridiculous way. The "Shabba" is not in the plural form, "Shawathe."

Do you know why the Hebrew word for "weeks" (plural) is "Shavuot?" Their name for "week" (singular) is "Shavua". See the pattern? "Shavua~Shabba" .... "Shavuot~Shawathe"....notice how in each language, the singular is without a Taw....but the plural contains it? Why do you think that is?

Thirdly, if Khad b-Shabba was in the text I would expect to see ???????????????????????????? as one word as shown in the Dukhrana Analytical Lexicon of the Syriac New Testament.

That's utterly ridiculous, and can only come from someone who doesn't understand Aramaic at all. There are many examples, too many to list, that are exactly the same and can appear as one word or broken out into multiple words. Bar Nasha vs. Barnasha, etc.

It's as if someone told you "have not" and "haven't" aren't the same thing in English, they don't (or, do not) mean the same thing....otherwise you would not find them in Webster's under different entries. How silly would that be?

1) Can you explain to me why ?????????????????? shaba aramaic number seven)
Is not present in the text of Luke 24:1 or for that matter MATTHEW 28:1, MARK 16:2,John 20:1, John 20:19, Acts 20:7, 1Corinthians 16:2 .

In Matthew 28:1, John 20:1, John 20:19, Acts 20:7 and 1Cor. 16:2 the word used is "Khad b-Shabba", "first of the week".....what's your point? Can you actually read the Aramaic, or are you just wasting my time?

2)What mechanism with Aramaic gives you the licence to change ???one??? ???? to first ??????????????

What? Are you drunk, or something? Seriously dude. I don't know why I'm wasting my time here but you are so pathetically uneducated on this topic, this is funny. Who changed Khad to Qadmaya? Why does that matter?

In English, don't you have multiple ways of saying the same thing...."first?"

How about these examples in English:

(a) Rule One
(b) The Primary Rule
© The First Rule
(d) The Foremost Rule
(e) The Preeminent Rule

Why does the fact that Aramaic has multiple ways of saying "first", or multiple ways to count the number of the days of the week, surprise you? Why can't you say "day two" instead of Monday, or "the day after Sunday"....., or "2 of seven", or "6 days before Sunday?"

3)What biblical evidence do you have that "week" means Sabbath? And before you rush to tell me Leviticus 23:15 everybody knows that there are seven days between one sabbath and another, but this does not mean a Sabbath means a week, it simply means there seven days between Sabbaths.
(I hope that wasn???t too FBI for you.)

Trust me dude, nothing you can write is too "FBI" for me. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Why don't you go and ask any Jew what "Shavuah Tov" means, ok?

Question 2: In 1Cor. 16:2, Paul instructs them "every" ("kul") Khad b-Shabba. How does this fit in with the once-a-year scenario, verses their weekly gatherings? Answer: The ???kul??? ???every??? refers to persons present rather than time or event. This can be clearly be seen in Dr. John Wesley Etheridge translation from the peshitta despite the fact he renders Sabbath as first day of the week.

That's impossible because the word "Kul" appears right before the noun which it acts upon, which is "khad b'shabba". Etheridge translated "kul"as "each"....which is the same thing in English as "every", are you sure you even understand English? Or, since your name is Claud, are you a Frenchman or something?

What is literally shown in Acts 20:5-7 is day] ????????????????????[one] ??????????[sabbath]???????????????? , day one Sabbath, one Sabbath day I,m not exactly sure how it should be rendered.

No, you are not only unsure of how it should be rendered....you are totally clueless as to how it should be rendered, and that is precisely why I stated in my response to Stephen that you were trying to push a square peg into a round hole. At least you've finally come around to admitting it.

Additionally, due to your dogmatic predisposition, you are unwilling to even understand Aramaic unless you can make it suit your needs. That is exactly what you accused me of.

Again, I repeat my question to you which you still have not answered:

Which "First among Sabbaths", or "One of the Sabbaths" was being referred to in Acts 20:7 ?

It can't be the same one as Luke 24:1, can it? The timeline of Luke 24:1 is much earlier in the Hebrew calendar than Acts 20:7, which was 3-4 weeks from the Passover.

Now either explain, or go start a Greek forum where you can teach people who actually speak Greek how they got the names of the days of their week all messed up! <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->