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Luke 24:1
#33
Shlama Akhi Paul,

I did answer your question, but it was not on your terms, I simply did not fall into the trap of responding to your ???straw man??? misrepresentation of my argument .
"Is this the "First of Sabbaths", nearly 3 weeks after the Passover, that you proposed earlier in the thread." what sort idiotic statement is this! you clearly trying unsuccessfully attribute something to me that I never said, If you look back at the selective quote you used, it said. ???Thus, there was an annual date known as "First Sabbath," just after Passover, it is clear even from this selective quote that first Sabbath is just after passover. If you were being fair to me you should have quoted the whole passage to give the proper context to your readers as below.
???Seven sabbaths were to be counted from the Feast of First-fruits or Passover. Consequently, these came to be known as "First Sabbath," "Second Sabbath" etc., down to the seventh. And according to Julian Morgenstern, former President of Hebrew University, this practice continued in Galilee till the time of Christ or the Common Era. It is still observed by some groups in Palestine today. Thus, there was an annual date known as "First Sabbath," just after Passover. (p. 230, The Life of Christ in Stereo).???



Question one: Which Khad b-Shabba is being referred to in Acts 20:5-7? In Aramaic, please. Answer: No Khad b-Shabba is being referred to in Acts 20:5-7.Explanation
Firstly, the transliteration Khad b-Shabba, according to you means first of the week i.e. Sunday. I would contend that what is actually being refered is one of the Sabbaths counted from the Feast of first fruits you can have up to Seven!
Secondly, I contend that the Khad b-Shabba was not used or even understood as you understand it at the time of Jesus and the Apostles. I have given examples of what I believe was said at the time. If you can prove otherwise then I may be open to persuasion.
Thirdly, if Khad b-Shabba was in the text I would expect to see ???????????????????????????? as one word as shown in the Dukhrana Analytical Lexicon of the Syriac New Testament. What is actually shown in place of Khad b-Shabba is [day] ????????????????????[one] ??????????[sabbath]???????????????? ??



Fourthly, Despite your noble attempt to explain Khad b-Shabba . I have 4 issues stated below your explanation.
Here is the explanation, in detail:

The word, Ekhad~Khad (Hebrew~Aramaic) is a number. It literally means "one", or figuratively "first".

The word, Shavua~Shaba (Hebrew~Aramaic) is a number. It literally means "seven", or figuratively "week".

In Luke 24:1, The Beth Proclitic, ??, is prepended to both of the words above. The Beth Proclitic, can be used to mean the following:

* on
* in
* of
* by
* through
* with

The translation of b-Khad, therefore, is "on the first".

The translation of b-Shaba, therefore, is "of the week".

The literal name for Sunday, in Aramaic, is "Khad b'Shaba" (first of the week)

The only difference between the Aramaic name for Sunday, "Khad b'Shaba", and Luke 24:1, is a tiny little intsy-wintsy Beth Proclitic before the name of the day.......meaning, instead of "Sunday"....a whoppingly, surprisingly, shockingly different......(drum roll) ...... "ON Sunday."

1) Can you explain to me why ?????????????????? shaba aramaic number seven)
Is not present in the text of Luke 24:1 or for that matter MATTHEW 28:1, MARK 16:2,John 20:1, John 20:19, Acts 20:7, 1Corinthians 16:2 .

2)What mechanism with Aramaic gives you the licence to change ???one??? ???? to first ??????????????
3)What biblical evidence do you have that "week" means Sabbath? And before you rush to tell me Leviticus 23:15 everybody knows that there are seven days between one sabbath and another, but this does not mean a Sabbath means a week, it simply means there seven days between Sabbaths.
(I hope that wasn???t too FBI for you.)

Question 2: In 1Cor. 16:2, Paul instructs them "every" ("kul") Khad b-Shabba. How does this fit in with the once-a-year scenario, verses their weekly gatherings? Answer: The ???kul??? ???every??? refers to persons present rather than time or event. This can be clearly be seen in Dr. John Wesley Etheridge translation from the peshitta despite the fact he renders Sabbath as first day of the week.
1Corinthians 16:2 On each first day of the week let every one of you at his own house lay by and keep something of that which cometh unto his hands, lest when I come there be then collections.


Question 3: In Aramaic, to say "One of the Sabbaths" (as you are proposing for your Greek rendering on Acts 20:5-7), would be "Khad men Shawathe" (one of the Sabbaths). This is spelled very differently from "Khad b-Shabba". Firstly, there is no Beth Proclitic, secondly there is an extra particle "men", thirdly the word "Shabba" (week) would have to be changed to "Shabtha" (Sabbath), and instead of singular it would need to be in the plural...."Shawathe" (Sabbaths). Please elaborate Answer: What is literally shown in Acts 20:5-7 is day] ????????????????????[one] ??????????[sabbath]???????????????? , day one Sabbath, one Sabbath day I,m not exactly sure how it should be rendered. One of the Sabbaths is from the Greek. Clearly if the Greek was translated from the Aramaic there seems to be significant divergence. I am not really with you on the Shabba and shabtha issue both words mean Sabbath but are separate inflected forms, that???s not my opinion that is what the Dukhrana Analytical Lexicon of the Syriac New Testament says.
However, you do raise an interesting point, the extra participle ???men??? which you seem to suggest signifies ???of the???, is not present in ??? Khad b- shabba??? which you claim s first day of the week, why would this be?

You accuse me of being dogmatic I could equally say the same thing about you. Ultimately, what is of importance to me is not whether the Aramaic has primacy or whether the Greek has primacy, it is knowing and understanding the word of God. I believe we are all called to be Bereans, that is to say we should search the scriptures daily to see if what people are preaching or teaching is so. At this moment in time I clearly have a view which is opposed to you in the area of the resurrection, this does not mean that I do not have respect for your view point, as a matter of fact for most of Christian life I have believed exactly as you have on this topic and the view point that have now reached was not taken lightly. I am sure there may be many areas on which we have agreement. I do not claim to know everything I could be wrong and you could be right or vice versa. Knowing which day our Messiah was raised from the dead is not central to our salvation, however accepting his sacrifice for our sin is. I say this because all my questions are not about trying to score points or make anybody look bad or to hold an audience captive , for me it is all about the pursuit of the truth, I am well aware that I will probably not know the whole truth until by Jahweh???s grace I make into the kingdom, until then I am going to keep on searching.


You might say to yourself , ???Na, I don???t buy it???, that would certainly be your prerogative, but ask yourself the question, why I am still here, why have I taken the time to answer your questions.
Shlama w???burkate
Claud.


Messages In This Thread
Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-14-2008, 02:23 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Stephen Silver - 12-14-2008, 04:23 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-15-2008, 01:29 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Stephen Silver - 12-15-2008, 02:04 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by ForHisRenown - 12-15-2008, 02:43 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Stephen Silver - 12-15-2008, 04:35 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Doug in CO - 12-15-2008, 06:05 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by ograabe - 12-15-2008, 08:40 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Stephen Silver - 12-15-2008, 10:04 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Doug in CO - 12-15-2008, 10:56 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Stephen Silver - 12-16-2008, 12:31 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-17-2008, 12:41 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Stephen Silver - 12-17-2008, 02:34 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-17-2008, 03:44 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Stephen Silver - 12-17-2008, 04:30 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-18-2008, 08:05 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Stephen Silver - 12-18-2008, 10:53 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-19-2008, 12:05 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Mike Kar - 12-19-2008, 12:39 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-19-2008, 01:24 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Stephen Silver - 12-19-2008, 05:00 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Paul Younan - 12-19-2008, 05:07 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Stephen Silver - 12-19-2008, 06:22 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-19-2008, 01:03 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Paul Younan - 12-19-2008, 05:05 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by yaaqubyl - 12-19-2008, 07:54 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-19-2008, 08:53 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by enarxe - 12-19-2008, 10:21 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Paul Younan - 12-19-2008, 10:53 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Paul Younan - 12-19-2008, 11:20 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-20-2008, 05:29 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Paul Younan - 12-20-2008, 05:30 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-23-2008, 01:58 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Thirdwoe - 12-23-2008, 07:23 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-23-2008, 12:28 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Thirdwoe - 12-23-2008, 03:08 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-24-2008, 02:01 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Paul Younan - 12-24-2008, 02:24 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Paul Younan - 12-24-2008, 02:40 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Stephen Silver - 12-24-2008, 02:53 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-28-2008, 10:55 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Stephen Silver - 12-28-2008, 11:25 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Phil - 12-29-2008, 12:13 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Phil - 12-29-2008, 01:28 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Stephen Silver - 12-29-2008, 01:56 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Paul Younan - 12-29-2008, 04:27 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Thirdwoe - 12-29-2008, 04:34 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-29-2008, 09:56 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Lars Lindgren - 12-29-2008, 12:08 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 12-30-2008, 03:54 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by abudar2000 - 12-30-2008, 10:59 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Shuvah - 01-28-2009, 02:11 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Thirdwoe - 01-29-2009, 02:25 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Dawid - 01-30-2009, 09:35 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Shuvah - 01-31-2009, 02:01 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Dawid - 01-31-2009, 02:55 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Thirdwoe - 01-31-2009, 11:29 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Shuvah - 02-02-2009, 02:28 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Shuvah - 02-02-2009, 02:53 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Mike Kar - 02-02-2009, 09:14 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Dawid - 02-02-2009, 10:33 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Dawid - 02-02-2009, 10:46 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Shuvah - 02-03-2009, 01:45 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Thirdwoe - 02-03-2009, 01:51 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Shuvah - 02-03-2009, 01:58 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Dawid - 02-03-2009, 03:28 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Dawid - 02-03-2009, 08:25 PM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 02-26-2009, 01:12 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Thirdwoe - 02-26-2009, 01:45 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 02-26-2009, 09:20 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by claud - 02-26-2009, 09:28 AM
Re: Luke 24:1 - by Stephen Silver - 02-26-2009, 05:12 PM

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