Loan words (Aramaic vs. Greek)?

[Nimrod Warda]

Does anyone have a full compilation of Greek "loan words" in the NT Peshitta? Also, does anyone have a full compilation of Aramaic words in any of the major Greek NT versions? I am new at this stuff, and have a general understanding of the basic arguements thanks to Shamasha Paul and Mr. Roths explainations, but I want to do a straight up word for word count. Also, Shamasha Paul (or anyone else), do you know how many Greek "loan words" are in our (CoE) literagy? I have found 5 for sure (with the possibility of 7), but again I am not too sure. Moreover, do you know (roughly) when the literagy was standardized and who added to it other than Mar Addai and Mar Mari (and when)? I know this is a lot to ask, but anything would help.

Push b'shayna (Modern Eastern Aramaic - a.k.a. Assyrian),

-Nimrod Warda-

[Lars Lindgren]

Shlama lokh Nimrod Warda,

I just generated a list of all the words with a Greek origin found in the SEDRA3 database. A total of 148 words were found.

Please see: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://dukhrana.com/lexicon/sedra_greek_origin.php">http://dukhrana.com/lexicon/sedra_greek_origin.php</a><!-- m -->

Push b'shlama,
Lars

[Burning one]

Shlama,


what a great question --

and what an awesome resource for an answer!


THANKS <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy

[Christina]

Shlama Nimrod Warda and welcome to the forum <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s -->

Lars, fantastic resource akhi! Now we just need a list for those Aramaic transliterations in the Greek NT texts. <!-- sly: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sly.gif" alt="ly:" title="Sly" /><!-- sly: -->

[Nimrod Warda]

Are these a listing of the words found in the CoE/CCC version of the Peshitta? I am not concerned about the SOC version.

Thanks again,

-NImrod Warda-

[Paul Younan]

Are these a listing of the words found in the CoE/CCC version of the Peshitta? I am not concerned about the SOC version.

Thanks again,

-NImrod Warda-

Shlama lukh Akhan Nimrod,

Welcome to the forum! I believe these are a list of the CoE version, there is very little difference between the two texts.

Normally the Greek loan-words found in the Peshitta, like this list shows, fall into predictable categories:

(a) units of measure and weight in use at the time in the Roman empire
(b) titles of officer ranks, government officials, etc
© names of locales

This is to be expected since these Aramaic-speakers lived within a Greek-language dominated empire.

For instance, we neo-Aramaic speakers here in the U.S. will commonly say something like:

"Ahu Poleesa qam yawillee ticket. Zilee court (beth-deena) oo preelee 100 dollare".
(that policeman gave me a ticket. I went to court and paid 100 dollars.)

Notice that of course we have English loan-words here in American Neo-Aramaic that perhaps they do not have in Iraqi Neo-Aramaic (poleesa and dollare). This is to be expected of all languages.

If we did not see Greek loan-words, especially of that nature, in the text of the Peshitta then it would be impossible that it were written by Jewish Aramaic-speakers living in 1st-century Palestine.

As to your other question: in our liturgy there are a number of Greek loan-words, especially in book titles like "Takhsa" (Greek "Taxis", "order"), "Ewangeleeyon", "Tronos" (Greek for "throne"), etc.

In the liturgy, only a small portion (the center) is of Mari and Addai. It is really rather short and reflects a Jewish prayer service or seder meal. The rest has been expanded upon during the centuries by various Synods and Patriarchs.

[Nimrod Warda]

That makes sence (both for the Peshitta and our literagy). I was expecting that to be the case. Funny enough, I always tease my family and friends for using words like "atmable" (automobile) and kayka (cake).

Now, does anyone have a list of the Aramaic words used in any of the more popular versions of the Greek NT. To add to that, does anyone have a complete list of mistranslations (individual words of phrases) to accompany this info.

My reason for wanting to know this information is so that people can "choose" on there own, fairly easily, to which primacy they agree (without having to be a scholar or know these languages fluently). I know there are MANY other reasons for Aramaic Primacy (Semetic idioms, etc.), but I want to keep it simple. Personally, I am one that likes to read about the history of Christianity, but many other young adults just want the bullet points. These "lists" can be the bullet points.

Thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions.

Allaha raba rakhmana (God is great), *Modern Eastern Aramaic - Assyrian

-Nimrod Warda-

[Paul Younan]

Hi Nimrod,

The Greek of Luqa 1:15 has "Sikera" (Aramaic "Shikera" for "strong drink"), "Paskha" (not Hebrew "Pesakh") in Luqa 2:41, "Korin" in Luqa 16:7, "Mammona" in Luqa 16:9, "Beelzebub" in Luke 11:15, "Satana" (not Hebrew "ha-Satan") in Luke 10:18, etc. There are many other Aramaic loan-words in the Greek (even adjectives/names like Keepas, etc.). There are Persian words, too.

In the Hebrew OT there are Aramaic (of course), Persian, etc.

I know you already realize this, but really the presence of loan-words in any text is a weak indicator of the language of composition. Much stronger arguments can be made based, as you said, on the presence of mistranslations, syntax and several other categories.

Another example comes to mind: The Assyrians from Iraq, take them for example. Those who live in the north of Iraq among Kurds have several Kurdish and Turkish loan-words in their neo-Aramaic dialect ("champa/spoon", "changal/fork", etc.) Those who live in the south among the Arabs have, of course, several Arabic loan-words in the neo-Aramaic dialects. The Assyrians in Iran have Persian loan-words in their dialects. This is to be expected, it's a natural evolution of dialects in languages.

Why someone would not expect there to be Greek and Latin loan-words in the Aramaic of 1st-century Palestine (and the Peshitta) is really mind-boggling.

That's also why there is a lot of Egyptian, Canaanite loan-words in the Hebrew of the early books of the O.T. And Old Babylonian/Persian Aramaic loan-words in later parts of the O.T. That's how we can know it was genuinely from those milieus.

If the Peshitta were 100% pure Aramaic with no Greek and Latin loan-words in it, I can guarantee you that it was a translation and not originally written by 1st century Jews living in the Roman empire.

Akhan Nimrod, are you able to read modern Neo-Aramaic? If so, please see the Patriarch Mar Dinkha's recent epistle:

http://myacoe.com/AssyrianIgarta.htm

Obviously, Mar Dinkha composed this epistle in Aramaic. Now, there are Greek and Persian (even, Arabic) loan-words in there. If you can read, are you able to identify them?

But that doesn't mean that Mar Dinkha composed this document in Greek, Arabic, or in Persian, right?

I guess what I am trying to say is that I would not stress loan-words (either way) as an evidence of any kind, it's a very weak argument.

[abudar2000]

shlom lokh oH Paul,

The Patriarch could have improved his letter by changing the following
From: shav'a 'ida maranaye d'itan qadishta
To: shav'a 'ida marunaye d'itan qadishta <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/laugh.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laugh" /><!-- s:lol: -->

I'm just kidding!

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun

[Paul Younan]

shav'a 'ida marunaye d'itan qadishta <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/laugh.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laugh" /><!-- s:lol: -->

I'm sure that's what he meant, Keefa! <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: --> The Maronite church is our cousin and the closest "Western" church to us.

[Christina]

The Greek of Luqa 1:15 has "Sikera" (Aramaic "Shikera" for "strong drink"), "Paskha" (not Hebrew "Pesakh") in Luqa 2:41, "Korin" in Luqa 16:7, "Mammona" in Luqa 16:9, "Beelzebub" in Luke 11:15, "Satana" (not Hebrew "ha-Satan") in Luke 10:18, etc. There are many other Aramaic loan-words in the Greek (even adjectives/names like Keepas, etc.). There are Persian words, too.

Are these loan words or transliterations? There's a difference here, while "Namusa" is a loan word from Greek (Nomos) which was used in everyday speech, did Greeks call strong drinks "Sikera" in their every day conversations? As far as I know they didn't, "Sikera" is not a loan word from Aramaic, it's a transliteration by the Greek translators, and that's significant for our position. So anyone got a list of all the Aramaic TRANSLITERATIONS in the Greek texts?

[Paul Younan]

Shlama Khatan Christina,

Well, in the case of "Sikera" I do believe it was a loan word. The Hebrew cognate of the Aramaic word "Shikera", "Shekhar" is used in places like Lev. 10:9 and Numbers 6:3. The LXX uses the Greek "Sikera." So this is definitely a loan-word.

In other portions of the Tanakh, the LXX translates "Shekhar" as the native Greek "Mequsma" (see Micah 2:11 or Hosea 4:11).

Mammona is probably just a transliteration, although in English this survives as a loan word we use in Christian speech - "mammon."

Then there's "Amen", etc.

+Shamasha

[Nimrod Warda]

Sorry for the delay, but I forgot to say thank you to everyone who helped answer my questions. Shamasha Paul, thank you especially. I am learning to read and write Modern Aramaic (Assyrian) right now, yet for now I only know "alep beet" o "zoowa". Your explaination will help me re-adjust my logic.

If anyone has a simplified version of how to explain Peshitta Primacy to young adults, I would be ever greatful.

Peace,

-Nimrod Warda-