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For Andrew Gabriel Roth
#16
Shlama all--

I picked a very weird subject line to answer Rafa's inquiry. It's a classic rock reference, since I will try and answer for "ruach" and nefesh" but not for "neshama" right now. What does that have to do with "Meat Loaf"? Well don't be sad, 'cause two out of three ain't bad.

Let's start:

You know, this is one of the things I have the most difficulty understanding. If we are souls, and animals have souls, then what would correspond to what in the Greek mindset is that sentient "spark" which we leave when our physical bodies die?

AGR:

This is something that is hard to answer, and Jewish opinions vary widely on the subject of animal souls because of the way the text reads. I am also a fervent animal lover--especially dogs--so I may not be objective here and would sooner avoid this question for animals.

I also don't want to explore the Greek mindset of death because quite frankly it is too popular and wrong as it is. I will say that that Scripture clearly says the NEFESH (life, life force, soul) dies with the body, and Y'shua said that his human nefesh was troubled to death (Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 6:23). The other interesting side of NEFESH is that Y'shua never elevated his to equivalence with YHWH. He declared it clearly as mortal, and refuted the Pharisees' very accusation on this point in John, "that you being a mere man, claim to be Elohim", i.e., that you have elevated YOUR HUMANITY to YHWH's level. Through Qnoma however we can talk in a different way about Y'shua's divinity, but that's another story.

For now, I would suggest a detailed Hebrew study of Isaiah 11:1-2 and Zechariah 12:10 for those who might be interested. For now, remember, my Christology is very high and Orthodox, but I refuse to use English terminology that was never adequate to the task. If the Greek hypostasis became outmoded there is no way I am touching "trinity" with, as one famous Jewish writer said, "with a thirty-nine and a half foot pole". (Can anyone tell me who that was??? Bonus points for giving me his real name.)

What happens during death, the first half of the process that is, is that the NEFESH dies with the body as I said but the RUACH, the breath of YHWH that brought the NEFESH to life, returns to YHWH who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7). During one of the resurrections (Daniel 12) the NEFESH and RUACH will be reunited in the body and then---


--nah can't get into that part now because it just is a lot to deal with.

Next:


If you eat blood are you eating a literal soul of the animal (not suggesting this is a good idea of course)?

AGR:

That is in fact an argument for glatt kosher, the highest form of the process. The rabbis have said that they admit their instructions go well beyond the simple procedure of pouring the blood on the ground and avoiding what Acts calls 'strangled meat". But they justify the extra procedures because of this idea that even the tiniest blood amount will literally transfer part of a dead animal's soul. The same rationale is used to frown on blood transfusions on occasion, or organ donation. Of course Torah directly prohibits, without specifying the amount, the deliberate injestion of blood as food.

Now if you are asking if I think you literally inherit an animal's soul from the least bit of blood, I would say that is a matter of semantics. I don't think I become more cow-like everytime I have a steak. On the other hand, we know it is a fact that the strength of the animal is converted by our stomach's to energy that sustains us. We literally use the life force of other things (even veggies) to maintain our bodies. Can that in some way be reflected in blood and flesh of an animal? Perhaps.


Also if your soul dies what happens to your "self"? Does it all vanish?

AGR:

At the initial stage, no nefesh vanishes. Y'shua said he did not want ANYONE to perish. But it will sleep prior to judgment and its fate will be decided for eternal life or no. (That's as far as I am going because after this it gets really hard.)

Next:

I understand the concept of the Neshama being a "link to YHWH" but I don't understand the idea of soul (hellenistic sense) and body (again hellenistic sense) being a single unified thing called a Nephesh (semitic concept) which is now a soul.

AGR:

All I will say is that the Greek language lends itself to separated definitions and a tendency to one meaning per word (not always of course). That specificity makes Greek ideal for being the language for science and medicine. Same for Latin. But Aramaic has the opposite trending where one word can have tons of meanings, so it should not be surprising that many things the Greeks would separate the Semites jam together. It also doesn't hurt to have folks like Moses and Y'shua explaining these things...

Next:

Let me see: the Nefesh is YOU, the neshama is sort of like a divine spark which grows as you listen to YHWH, and the Ruach is what Hellenism calls the soul (what's "left" after you die). Is this right? Am I missing some crucial detail?

AGR:

My issue with NESHAMA is that there is no direct Aramaic cognate to it in the NT, but there are for the other terms. Sometimes NESHAMA can be translated into a variety of words, including both ruach and nefesh, which to my mind kind of clouds that issue from an NT perspective. On the other hand, QNOMA is an NT term with no cognate in the Tanakh either. (There is maybe one place that comes close in the Psalms but it is not absolute.)

To be brutally honest though, I have almost no use for even bantying about English words like "soul" and "spirit" and try to really minimize it. I think that using a one to one word exchange for these concepts (although I translate as such but I explain it) without extra documentation is dangerous. I would not want to just say ruach equals spirit, nefesh equals soul and just leave it at that. Like Miltha, we need to go beyond mere interchange and get into somewhat lengthy and specific DEFINITIONS WITH EXAMPLES.

Hope this helps!

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
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Messages In This Thread
For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by *Albion* - 09-12-2008, 05:37 PM
Mari/P.E.A.C.E. update - by Andrew Gabriel Roth - 09-13-2008, 04:51 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Thirdwoe - 09-16-2008, 11:21 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Christina - 09-17-2008, 02:41 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Amatsyah - 09-17-2008, 05:57 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by aramaic_albion - 09-17-2008, 06:18 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by aramaic_albion - 09-17-2008, 08:07 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Christina - 09-17-2008, 08:15 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Thirdwoe - 09-17-2008, 10:14 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by glscottnz - 09-18-2008, 11:47 AM
Spiritual "Meat Loaf" - by Andrew Gabriel Roth - 09-18-2008, 03:00 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by aramaic_albion - 09-18-2008, 06:30 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Paul Younan - 09-18-2008, 06:35 PM
Nashama - by Stephen Silver - 09-18-2008, 11:00 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Thirdwoe - 09-18-2008, 11:30 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Stephen Silver - 09-19-2008, 05:38 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Stephen Silver - 09-19-2008, 10:23 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Stephen Silver - 09-20-2008, 02:30 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Stephen Silver - 09-20-2008, 06:32 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 09-20-2008, 05:53 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 09-20-2008, 08:50 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 09-20-2008, 09:02 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 09-20-2008, 09:14 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 09-21-2008, 12:44 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 09-21-2008, 01:07 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Christina - 09-21-2008, 01:10 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 09-21-2008, 01:12 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by glscottnz - 09-21-2008, 02:48 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 09-21-2008, 03:05 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 09-21-2008, 05:09 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 09-21-2008, 05:32 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 09-21-2008, 05:50 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Dawid - 09-21-2008, 12:56 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Christina - 09-21-2008, 06:55 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Thirdwoe - 09-21-2008, 08:19 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 09-22-2008, 07:57 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 09-22-2008, 09:01 AM
I am weary - by Andrew Gabriel Roth - 09-22-2008, 04:59 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Paul Younan - 09-22-2008, 05:06 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Christina - 09-22-2008, 05:35 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Christina - 09-22-2008, 06:03 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Paul Younan - 09-22-2008, 06:12 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Paul Younan - 09-22-2008, 06:17 PM
The Nazarene Creed - by Andrew Gabriel Roth - 09-22-2008, 06:34 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Christina - 09-22-2008, 06:52 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Paul Younan - 09-22-2008, 06:54 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Paul Younan - 09-22-2008, 07:02 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Christina - 09-22-2008, 07:17 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Christina - 09-22-2008, 07:25 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Dawid - 09-23-2008, 01:04 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Thirdwoe - 09-24-2008, 12:35 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 10-01-2008, 12:25 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 10-01-2008, 04:12 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 10-01-2008, 04:31 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 10-01-2008, 04:58 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 10-01-2008, 05:12 AM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 10-01-2008, 08:00 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Christina - 10-01-2008, 09:10 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 10-01-2008, 09:52 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Christina - 10-01-2008, 10:54 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Paul Younan - 10-01-2008, 11:00 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 10-01-2008, 11:06 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Paul Younan - 10-01-2008, 11:10 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 10-01-2008, 11:24 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 10-02-2008, 06:52 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 10-03-2008, 07:01 AM
To Spyridon - by Andrew Gabriel Roth - 10-03-2008, 01:35 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Paul Younan - 10-03-2008, 03:01 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Christina - 10-03-2008, 03:38 PM
Exploring Q'noma and Trinity - by Stephen Silver - 10-03-2008, 07:22 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Christina - 10-03-2008, 07:30 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Christina - 10-03-2008, 07:34 PM
Re: For Andrew Gabriel Roth - by Spyridon - 10-09-2008, 05:47 AM

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