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To Andrew Gabriel Roth About Mari/PEACE
#1
Dear Andrew,

I 'feel' that perhaps sometime within a week that Mari/P.E.A.C.E. will be out.

I'm gonna need to order it over the 'phone because of harrassment that's going on in other ways.

Will I be able to do this? Order it over the 'phone I mean?

Is your Natzari website up yet?

I can 'feel' that we are VERY close. Is my feeling RIGHT?

Thanks for answering!!

Shlama, Albion
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#2
Shlama Akhi Albion,

Yes, we are extremely close to publication. Baruch was waiting for a call back on the final printing schedule on Friday and he expects to have the very few remaining issues hammered out sometime this week. I phoned him a few hours ago about something that I thought would make a brief footnote, but before I asked about that I simply said instead, "Are we done?" He said, "Yes, Andrew, we are done. I just need to know when what we have gets bound."

I could know the date in the next 48 hours or a few days after that. And of course when I get that info I will also get the final price.

I believe you and Baruch have spoken over the phone before and don't think he will have any problem taking your info over the phone. That is an accomodation I will do for you due to your extreme circumstances, but you know I am not handling that part of the project.

I was going to wait a little longer figuring you guys didn't want another interim update but to do so when we were done. Oh well. You asked and I had to answer.

Hopefully the next email on this subject will be all is finished and ready. When I am ready to say that, as I did with my other books that were released over the years, the subject line will be "A MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT". Anything short of that and we are not done yet.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
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#3
While I respect Roth as a translator, one should recognize that his theology is outside mainstream Christianity, even outside Messianic Judaism. An authentic Semitic faith can be found in an ancient church like Syriac Orthodoxy.
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#4
Wow!

Shlama Spyridon,

Since I think that I'm the ONLY PERSON on this forum to read one Book (Matthew's Gospel) of Mari/P.E.A.C.E., I'd be careful judging what you've NOT seen.

While I'd call AGR's Mari "a Nazarene translation"...........it IS "Orthodox", I know this, because I've read Matthew, as I said before.

If your gonna throw stones, why don't you at least WAIT till you've read the actual text, so your JUDGEMENT can at least be based on FACTS instead of on conjecture.

Isn't this a good idea?

Albion



Spyridon Wrote:While I respect Roth as a translator, one should recognize that his theology is outside mainstream Christianity, even outside Messianic Judaism. An authentic Semitic faith can be found in an ancient church like Syriac Orthodoxy.
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#5
Albion, being outside the mainstream isn't wrong in and of itself. George Lamsa was decidedly outside the mainstream, and yet he's one of my favorite writers. We should respect each other's individuality.
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#6
EDIT: Oops, my bad, clicked the wrong button, LOL.
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#7
Spyridon Wrote:Albion, being outside the mainstream isn't wrong in and of itself. George Lamsa was decidedly outside the mainstream, and yet he's one of my favorite writers. We should respect each other's individuality.

That I do agree with but your first reply seemed to have contradicted what you said above:

Spyridon Wrote:While I respect Roth as a translator, one should recognize that his theology is outside mainstream Christianity,

Akhi Andrew has been very transparent with us about his beliefs, and I fail to see how his theology is outside mainstream Christianity. Andrew believes in the Father, Son & Holy Spirit, He believes that eternal life is obtained through belief in Yeshua's atoning sacrifice alone, and he believes that every book of the Bible is the inspired word of Alaha. So he's Torah-observant, so what? Scripture says that we must keep Alaha's commandments, Messianic Jews just have a much broader interpretation of this, but they don't perform sacrifices. And who says mainstream Christianity always gets everything right anyway?

Spyridon Wrote:even outside Messianic Judaism.

Granted Messianic Judaism is quite diverse, I don't see how akhi Andrew's theology is outside Messianic Judaism.

Spyridon Wrote:An authentic Semitic faith can be found in an ancient church like Syriac Orthodoxy.

It can also be found in the CoE and in Judaism, after all you did say "Semitic faith" and the Jews are Semites too you know.
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#8
I'm certain that Roth is aware of St. Paul's warnings against Judaizing. Whether one follows the Mosaic law is a matter of individual conscience. I'm sorry to have caused hurt or offense.
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#9
Spyridon Wrote:I'm certain that Roth is aware of St. Paul's warnings against Judaizing. Whether one follows the Mosaic law is a matter of individual conscience. I'm sorry to have caused hurt or offense.

For offense I can't speak on behalf of akhi Andrew, though St. Paul also said "remain as you called", if you were a called as a gentile remain a gentile, and if you are called as a Jew remain a Jew (albeit a believing a Jew). Andrew is a Jew, and that's what he was when he was called so he's not disobeying Rav Shaul (St. Paul) by "remaining as he is".

Yes akhi Andrew expresses his beliefs and invites others to consider walking on the same path he has chosen to walk, it's up to you whether you wanna join him or not. Do remember that no matter what commentary you read, whether it be by a Messianic Rabbi or Church Father, in the end its an opinion, it can be a good one, it can be perfectly Scripturally sound deeply spiritual but its still an opinion, your only obligation is to obey the Word of Alaha, anything beyond that is your choice.

Nevertheless you strike me as an open-minded individual, and perhaps you're concerned whether akhi Andrew has allowed his beliefs to filter through his translation, like Lamsa did? From what Andrew has told us, I understand it that he's kept the "commentary" out of the text itself. Plus he's publishing Mari with the actual Aramaic text, so you can check it.
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#10
Shlama to you---

First of all Spyridon, if you want a mainstream Christian translation, then there are plenty of those. I really don't think you want a discussion about THEIR bias, right? I however don't like the suggestion that I have some kind of different agenda with Mari. I am a Semite and I have translated from my people's sacred traditions, even as Lamsa did. I think it a good thing that a translator respects those traditons and believes them to be YHWH-breathed.

As for being out of mainstream Messianic Judaism, I don't think you know what you are talking about. I am surely not a Greek in Jewish clothing. If being against the fake kind of Messianism that is funded by Protestants and tries to get Jews to keep Easter and Christmas is "non-mainstream", then I accept the title with pride. You can have your Easter ham--I'll just pass on that if that's okay with you. And you are right, keeping Torah is a personal choice, so it is one I take personally and believe strongly in. Oh, and I also don't think breaking the first four of the Ten Commandments is what Messiah would have wanted either. Cool? Do we understand one another?

If however you think for one moment that I believe in a low-Christology or have an Evyonim outlook, you are sorely mistaken. I believe Y'shua was and is YHWH, with the same understanding of Qnoma as the COE. I believe he was born a virgin, did miracles and was raised from the dead. And I believe Y'shua said, because he did, that not one yodh would drop out of the Torah until heaven and earth disappeared and these are still with us. If you read Nazarene history you would understand that the kind of "Judaizing" Rav Shaul was talking about was in putting ORAL LAW above written law, a point Y'shua made repeatedly, as in Matthew 15, and where he said in John, "If you believe Moses you would believe me, for he wrote about me". If you think otherwise I suggest you return to the Sermon on the Mount in Matti and see that he said 6 times, "You have heard that it was SAID__________, but I SAY to you_________." And yet Y'shua never once disagreed about when Shabbat or the other holy occasions were.

As for Rav Shaul (Paul), last time I checked Romans 7:12 called the Torah "holy, just and good" and Romans 3:31 said, "Do we nullify the Torah by faith, no, we establish the Torah". Rav Shaul fasted on Yom Kippur and kept Shabbat 84 times in Acts alone. Rav Shaul said he was "a Pharisee and the son of a Pharisee" in the PRESENT tense and that he has done nothing against the Jewish people or the Temple (Acts 23:1-6). And if you want my defintion of a Nazarene, it is also the same as Rav Shaul's (Acts 24:12-14), so if you want a "Judaizer", there's one for you right there.

James called the Torah "the perfect law of liberty" and John said sin was transgression from the Torah. Shall I go on? I can find support for all Ten Commandments and most of the major moedim in the NT. Good luck with doing the same for your holidays.

I also think, as Albion said, that you have no right to judge what you yourself have not read. The only thing I can think of that makes me "non-mainstream" in Nazarene circles may be my belief in Peshitta primacy, but let me tell you something: 10 years ago most Nazarenes had never heard of the Peshitta and those that did had a lot of misconceptions about it. Now at least they are talking about it, so this is not as "extreme" as it once was.

And finally, just so you know, I have no interest in "first contact" with the Christian West in the sense that I don't witness to churches. I do witness to those who ask me on an individual basis and I will tell the truth from Scripture as best I can. I am here to explain my faith, not convert you from yours.

If you think KJV is not biased, stay with that. If you think NIV, NASB or any of the 1000 + NT translations from the Greek text is perfect and unbiased then go with those. I am not out here for people who make blind judgments and U surely do not need you to purchase it.

But in another way you are right. If Mari was "mainstream" then there would be no need for it.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
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#11
Roth, I do not mean to cause harm or offense. I hope that you are not involved with James Trimm.
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#12
I guess you didn't get the memo Spyridon...I have debunked Trimm for years. He is fraud and a liar and far from a translator. I have nothing to do with him. Don't let that stop you from thinking otherwise just since it has only been true since 2002.

And I sign my full name here and would appreicate your calling me Andrew. For someone who keeps saying they don't want to offend you sure trip up a lot. I suggest you study things more carefully before making broad and questionable pronouncements or asking loaded questions.

Why do you think I have refused to take pre publication orders for Mari for more than a year? I could have pocketed thousands of dollars easily as Trimm did with his Horribly Ruined Version NT but I refused to not be as he did and whine about delays and never deliver on what was paid for. To even ask such a question linking me to him IS OFFENSIVE and you will be wise to not repeat the error. I rejected him when I saw his true nature and have never ceased telling the truth about him.

What's next? You want to know if I support Moshe K on plural marraige or will you take the hint that I do not?

WHen people buy Mari they will get her in good order and in timely fashion.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
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#13
Andrew, I don't understand why you are reacting this way. I'm only attempting to ask honest questions and bring honest concerns. I'm sorry for whatever I've done to elicit such a reaction. While it's not your fault that Trimm and others like him exist, you will encounter people from time to time who think that you're somehow involved, or even the same person. It's an honest mistake.
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#14
So Spyridon, let me make sure I am understanding you corrently. You think it is ok to make sweeping judgments about a work you have never read, and then give some catch all non-maintream title to me without example or proof.Then you just casually wonder if I happened to be associated with the biggest theif and liar the Nazarenes have ever produced, and this was what again? Honest qoestion? And your "question" about Trimm was really a nasty statement instead. You said "I hope" rather than "I wonder" I mean while not just "hope" I didn't fake the ossuary box of James too.

You use terms but don't define them at all and they come across as accusations instead or warnings that I night be a condemned Judaaizer and whatnot or may be part of the forty theives that stole with James. But hey, no offense right? My reaction is too curious.

I am acting this way because you are clearlhy coming from a place of harsh and unfair judgment so I throw that right back at you. You may think you ask honest questions but your techniques in doing so leave much to be desired. And I truly doibt you have expertise sufficient to say what is and is not mainstream in the Nazarene community. But that's ok we have an essay in Mari to set the 13 principles of the fiath for all who may be curious.

Shlama w'butkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
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#15
Andrew, please excuse me for not being an expert of the Nazarene movement nor its followers. I cannot make any judgments on you, since I haven't even read your work. I do, however, have a right to use caution, regardless of how benign your intentions are. That's the same caution I would use for any Bible translator, even King James himself. Public figures are often referred to by a last name basis. I meant no offense by it. By the way, I believe in the authenticity of that particular box of bones.
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