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The Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
#1
I belong to the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, which was founded by St. Thomas in 52 AD. How does the Assyrian Church of the East differ from the Syrian Orthodox Church?
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#2
Shlama Spyridon,

Your ancestors were once members of the CoE, but when the Portuguese conquered India and forced Roman Catholicism on the native CoE there, many refused and instead looked to Antioch (the SOC) for help and established ties with the Antiochian branch of the Church. The reason is that after Tamerlane devastated the CoE, it went into seclusion in the mountains of Hakkari in Turkey and we could not make contact.

The SOC and CoE are really unrelated. We have some common Patristic writers (like Ephrem), but that was before the split in 431 AD.

+Shamasha
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#3
How do you know that our church was once "Nestorian"?
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#4
Shlama Akhi Spyridon,

http://www.indianchristianity.org/assyrian.html

Quote:Assyrian Church of the East known in India as Chaldean Syrian Church of the East is founded by St. Thomas, the Apostle. The St.Thomas Christian of India from early centuries and relations with Chaldean Syrian Church of the East founded by Mar Thoma, Mar Barthelomeu, Mar Adhai and Mar Mari. Mar Adhai and Mar Mari were among the seventy disciples of Jesus. It was a flourishing Church.??? By 90 A.D. this Church had 19 Episcopal sees from Mesopotamia to China and Japan.??? This Church was also known as Nestorian or Assyrian Church.??? It uses Armaic in liturgy. Bishops and Christian leaders used to come to India from Mesopotomia.?????? The Portuguese missionaries who came to India in the 16th century tried to break this tradition and Latinize them.
.......

Vasco de Gama came to south India in 1498 AD. In the Synod of Diamper in June 1599, Archbishop Alexio de Menezes forced the Syrian Christian community to be under the obedience of the Pope of Rome.

In January 1653 thousands of these Christians in Malabar took an oath with a rope tied on a bend Cross and liberated themselves from the Portuguese fold. In 1665 a Metropolitan came from the East. Mar Gregorius of Jerusalem was his name. The Patriarch of Antioch sent him. The Syrian Christians received him. They were not aware of the split of the Syrian Christian community to East Syrian and West Syrian Churches. At that time no bishops came from the Church in Baghdad. The Patriarchate had been moved from Baghdad to different places and finally it was in Qudshanis in Kurdistan.

Before 1665, from Apostolic times, the believers in India were of the Church of the East. They were under the leadership of the Catholicos of Babylon. Tamerlane, who slaughtered the Church of the East mercilessly, interrupted our communication, but you were safe in India. You accepted the authority of Antioch in 1665 because it was close to your native Christian heritage (Aramaic/Semitic), and you didn't want Roman rule brought by the Portuguese.

But there still remained a remnant with ties to the Patriarch of Babylon of the Church of the East, and today the CoE in India is led by Metropolitan Mar Aprem who resides in Thrissur, Kerala state. There are churches all over India that are still Church of the East, and didn't submit to either Rome or Antioch.

Unfortunately the Portuguese were successful in forcing the vast majority of Indian believers into Roman Catholicism, and the SOC was another church who came in as an alternative, while the CoE was weak and in exile in the mountains of Hakkari in Turkey. The latter is the Church you now refer to as the "Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church."

But the CoE never died in India and is quite thriving today, although most of its former members are now for a few generations in obedience to two ecclesiastical strangers, historically speaking, Rome and Antioch.

+Shamasha Paul

PS - "Nestorian" is a misnomer. Nestorius was a Greek, the Patriarch of Constantinople. We have nothing to do with either Nestorius, or Constantinople. We are the Church of the East. Our enemies called us "Nestorian", but that is a false name as modern scholarship admits.
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#5
I do not believe that you are actually "Nestorian," which is why I used quotations. I do not like the term, and neither do I believe that Nestorius was a heretic. Thank you for the information.
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#6
I don't even think Nestorius was a "Nestorian." If you read his (now found) book, it's really rather Orthodox.
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#7
Akhi Spyridon,

Here's a short video clip of a parish of the CoE in India:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us3z4SD8yOs

The priest is chanting the Aramaic "Barikh Mar" (bless, O Lord)

Quote:Priest: Bless, O my Lord; bless, O my Lord, bless, O my Lord; The mercifulness of Thy grace, O our Lord and our God, bring us near unto these glorious and holy and life-giving and divine mysteries, though we are not worthy.

The Deacons and the People respond: In truth, O my Lord, we are not worthy. Have pity on us, O my Lord, for we are not worthy through our frailty, by reason of our many sins.

India is where Aramaic will be preserved once the last Aramaic-speakers are ethnically cleansed from Mesopotamia as is happening today. India is our hope.

+Shamasha
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#8
Paul Younan Wrote:I don't even think Nestorius was a "Nestorian." If you read his (now found) book, it's really rather Orthodox.

Yes, I would have to agree. However, St. Cyril's main objection was not to Nestorius' Christology, but the implications of his denial of the title Theotokos. Does the Assyrian Church of the East recognize Mary as Theotokos?
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#9
Spyridon Wrote:Does the Assyrian Church of the East recognize Mary as Theotokos?

We do not use the term ourselves, although we do not object to others using it. If we were to use a Greek term, which we normally don't, we would prefer the term "Christo-Tokos", since the message is more complete.

Allow me to explain.

The strictest sense of the Greek term "Theo-tokos", literally "Bearer of God" or "God-bearer", we feel can be misinterpreted easily. We have no objection to the idea that Mary is "Christo-tokos", if by "Christos" we mean both God and Man in one Person of Messiah.

So the term "Theotokos" can be used in what we would consider an orthodox way, albeit with a great deal of explanation.

In summary, we all agree Messiah is at once God and Man in one Person.

The term "Theotokos" literally meaning "bearer of God", while not a false statement, we feel is really incomplete. "Christotokos" is a more complete term, since by "Christos" all orthodox churches understand is meant both God and Man in one Person. So our preference is not because "Theotokos" is a false statement, but that "Christotokos" is much more accurate and complete. Nestorius explains this in his book.

+Shamasha

PS - Since we really don't use Greek, the nearest equivalent in Aramaic would be "Yaldath-Alaha" which sounds really, really harsh to a Semitic ear (much harder than the English or Greek.) "YLD" is a Semitic root which carries the meaning of having originated something. Of course, no one originated God. So in Aramaic it's much more complicated than the innocent-enough sounding Greek term.
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#10
Thank you for your explanation.
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#11
Was St. Isaac the Syrian part of the COE?
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#12
Spyridon Wrote:Was St. Isaac the Syrian part of the COE?

Yes, Mar Isaac was a bishop in the CoE (bishop of Nineveh). He was born in Beth-Qatraye (modern-day Bahrain), so he actually wasn't a Syrian, or an Assyrian. He composed his works in the language of the Church.
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#13
Paul, I plan on entering the diaconate. There is a Greek Orthodox seminary that requires only six weeks of class for $4800 to be ordained a deacon. This is amazing to me, considering the usual high cost of seminary. Have you ever considered entering the clergy?
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#14
Shlama Akhi Spyridon,

Spyridon Wrote:Paul, I plan on entering the diaconate. There is a Greek Orthodox seminary that requires only six weeks of class for $4800 to be ordained a deacon. This is amazing to me, considering the usual high cost of seminary. Have you ever considered entering the clergy?

Go for it, sounds like a great deal!

About 2 years ago I entered the clergy as a deacon (Shamasha), but for now have no plans to proceed any further up the ecclesiastical ladder.

+Shamasha
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#15
Rafa Wrote:...and this is "Islamic Tolerance"? <!-- s:dontgetit: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/dontgetit.gif" alt=":dontgetit:" title="Dont Get It" /><!-- s:dontgetit: -->

Tamerlane is single-handedly responsible for decimating the CoE, nearly wiping it out. I've actually read accounts of entire deserts in Asia being created by his rampages. The only thing that saved us was fleeing into the crags of the mountains in Hakkari. That's when we lost touch with the CoE in India, and Rome (and later, Antioch) came in and created their presence there.

+Shamasha
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