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When Is Passover?
#16
As I have TRIED to make clear since I started this thread..........the DAY of His Resurrection doesn't really matter to me.

Saturday evening, Sunday morning, matters not, but it DOES matter that it was three days and three nights.

That this descended to name calling is wrong. It's Sin.

That's the power of "the box", the power of our religious training........to literally turn on each other, and call someone something that they are NOT.

"The box" is powerful, it has a life of it's own. Perhaps it's powered by the evil one, I'm not sure.

I only know it well enough from my own life to want to avoid it.

Am I willing to curse Paul Younan, or Andrew Gabriel Roth?

If I let "the box" get in my way, to get in Yeshua's Way of leading me, I am.

Because THAT'S THE POWER of religion. The power of "the box".

It could just have easily been ME. Dear YHWH, please preserve me from "the box".

Where there is war........Peace. Where there is hatred..........Love.

For Thy Kingdom's Sake, Albion
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#17
Shlama Akhi Albion,

For the record, I agree it must be three days and three nights. Maybe I should have read the thread more deeply but I meant no hostility to you nor did I perceive any from you. I don't think you have "cursed" anyone but it seems every time I respond to something even in the gentlest way I upset you somehow? What have I missed? Oh, and recall I have not posted my actual position on this here.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

Hope I didn't offend you dear brother.
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#18
Dear Andrew,

I was responding to Paul's comparing us to Muslim terrorists.

He compared us to people who flew airplanes into buildings.

I've prayed for your recovery tonight, and I will continue to do so until your back home......and well.

Read Paul's post again. I think that you misunderstood.

Shlama, Albion






Andrew Gabriel Roth Wrote:Shlama Akhi Albion,

For the record, I agree it must be three days and three nights. Maybe I should have read the thread more deeply but I meant no hostility to you nor did I perceive any from you. I don't think you have "cursed" anyone but it seems every time I respond to something even in the gentlest way I upset you somehow? What have I missed? Oh, and recall I have not posted my actual position on this here.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

Hope I didn't offend you dear brother.
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#19
Stephen,

With respect to Mark 16:9, [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Mq 0b4b dxb Nyd 0rp4b[/font], Paul Younan translated "[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Mq[/font]" as "he had risen". This suggests to me that He rose some indefinite time earlier maybe even the day before Sunday.

Otto
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#20
Dear Albion, your summary is excellent and I concur. It is shameful and unproductive for a genuine discussion (not heated debate) to degenerate to such name calling and a reflection on the author himself. He will have to deal with these issues himself BUT I pray that good comes as a result.
As has been stated before, it matters not what we think about this subject. It does matter though when what Yeshua said gets contorted and twisted to fit a system of teaching, e.g. 'Easter'. Now, I only used this as an example and know that it would be unfruitful to go further with this keeping in mind that we must adhere to the issues of translation from the Peshitta.

Kind regards,

Mark
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#21
Shlama Akhay,

I'm glad that at least Rafa got the joke, I in no way meant to equate anyone to terrorists and I do apologize if that comparison offended you.

The Wahhabis are a major sect within Islam. There are millions of adherents around the world, not all of whom fly planes into buildings or are terrorists. They are famous, however, for their ultra-literal interpretation of their scripture. That was the only comparison I was making. I am not calling you, or the Wahhabis, terrorists. There are people among the Jews and the Christians who have something in common with the Wahhabis, and that is what I was referring to.

+Shamasha Paul
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#22
ograabe Wrote:Stephen,

With respect to Mark 16:9, [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Mq 0b4b dxb Nyd 0rp4b[/font], Paul Younan translated "[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Mq[/font]" as "he had risen". This suggests to me that He rose some indefinite time earlier maybe even the day before Sunday.

Otto

Shlama Akhi Otto,

As I stated on a previous thread, there were at least 8 hours of darkness on Sunday morning before the women arrived at the tomb. There is no explicit statement on exactly when He arose, but absent a specific reference to the Sabbath the safest assumption is that He arose, as the scriptures say, on Sunday.

I concede that the indefinite time may have extended into Saturday, but there is no scriptural reason to do so considering the amount of time from the beginning of Sunday (probably shortly after 9pm) to the dawn (5-6 am?)

+Shamasha Paul
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#23
Shlama Akhi Albion,

Albion Wrote:Saturday evening, Sunday morning, matters not, but it DOES matter that it was three days and three nights.

Akhi, in Esther 4:16 we read:

Quote:Go gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan and fast ye for me and neither eat nor drink three days night or day I also and my maidens will fast likewise and so will I go in unto the king which is not according to the law and if I perish I perish...

Yet, we read in Esther 5:1

Quote:On the third day Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the palace, in front of the king's hall. The king was sitting on his royal throne in the hall, facing the entrance. 2 When he saw Queen Esther standing in the court, he was pleased with her and held out to her the gold scepter that was in his hand. So Esther approached and touched the tip of the scepter.

If Esther appeared to the king on any part of the third day, then it would not have been a full 3 days and 3 nights of fasting.

What you're seeing is a Semitic colloquialism, a figure of speech that no one really takes literally.

If Matthew 12:40 were to be taken literally, then Meshikha would have arisen on the fourth day and not on the third. Yet, we know from Matthew 16:21 that He would rise on the third day. If He would rise on the third day, there's no way that 3 days and 3 nights would pass, because if that was the case He would rise sometime on the fourth day.

I understand that for someone who takes the sign of Jonah extremely literally, that it's important to have 3 days and 3 nights pass....but that's not necessarily something to be taken so literally, you wahhabi you. <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink -->

+Shamasha Paul
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#24
Paul Younan Wrote:Shlama Akhay,

I'm glad that at least Rafa got the joke, I in no way meant to equate anyone to terrorists and I do apologize if that comparison offended you.

The Wahhabis are a major sect within Islam. There are millions of adherents around the world, not all of whom fly planes into buildings or are terrorists. They are famous, however, for their ultra-literal interpretation of their scripture. That was the only comparison I was making. I am not calling you, or the Wahhabis, terrorists. There are people among the Jews and the Christians who have something in common with the Wahhabis, and that is what I was referring to.

+Shamasha Paul

Don't they call themselves Salafis nowadays? I've got a copy of the al-Hillai-Khan translation of the Quran which is endorsed by the Saudi government. Where literalism is concerned, eish!
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#25
Christina Wrote:
Paul Younan Wrote:Shlama Akhay,

I'm glad that at least Rafa got the joke, I in no way meant to equate anyone to terrorists and I do apologize if that comparison offended you.

The Wahhabis are a major sect within Islam. There are millions of adherents around the world, not all of whom fly planes into buildings or are terrorists. They are famous, however, for their ultra-literal interpretation of their scripture. That was the only comparison I was making. I am not calling you, or the Wahhabis, terrorists. There are people among the Jews and the Christians who have something in common with the Wahhabis, and that is what I was referring to.

+Shamasha Paul

Don't they call themselves Salafis nowadays? I've got a copy of the al-Hillai & Khan translation of the Quran which is endorsed by the Saudi government. Where literalism is concerned, eish!
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#26
Dear Paul, with reference to your many statements that it matters not the time spent in the tomb, the scriptures (even the Peshitta disagree). To quote this please look at Mattai 27:63 where Yeshua said that He would rise AFTER the 3rd day. If this is evidence enough I leave it to you to accept (or not). As you often state, 'it's fact'. By the way, sorry for the 'ultra-literal interpretation of scripture'.

Shalom,
Mark
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#27
markt Wrote:Dear Paul, with reference to your many statements that it matters not the time spent in the tomb, the scriptures (even the Peshitta disagree). To quote this please look at Mattai 27:63 where Yeshua said that He would rise AFTER the 3rd day. If this is evidence enough I leave it to you to accept (or not). As you often state, 'it's fact'. By the way, sorry for the 'ultra-literal interpretation of scripture'.

Shalom,
Mark

Dear Mark,

Then why, one verse later (27:64), are the guards requested to watch the tomb only until the third day? Why didn't they want to guard it until the fourth day?

Additionally, as mentioned before in this thread, Mattai 16:21 explicitly states:

"wal'yoma da'tlatha ne'qum" (and on the THIRD day He would rise)

If He was to rise on the THIRD day, then, like Esther, there's no way 3 sunrises and 3 sunsets would occur.

You can be as ultra-literalist as you like, the scriptures say that he was risen on Sunday, and make no mention of a Sabbath resurrection. No matter how badly you want a Saturday resurrection, there is simply no scriptural reference to it. Period.

+Shamasha Paul
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#28
Hi Paul, contrary to your statement that He arose on Sunday, the scriptures do not agree with you. The words were 'that He had risen'. This does not state that it was Sunday OR EVEN SATURDAY. For some reason you are saying that I am trying to make a case for a sabbath resurrection? I personally do not believe the scriptures support either-for the record.
Albions' post was 'When is Passover?' So, in keeping with this topic may I present a few scriptural, cultural, historical, truths?
I thank you for the opportunity of being permitted to converse on this forum and am conscious of the need to 'not be too theological'.

Mark
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#29
Hi, folks!

Just a quick question...

When I look at Mar. 16:9, it appears to say that "he rose" in the early morning on that day. Is "he rose" a proper translation there?

-Doug "Whitey" Jackson
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#30
Doug Wrote:Hi, folks!

Just a quick question...

When I look at Mar. 16:9, it appears to say that "he rose" in the early morning on that day. Is "he rose" a proper translation there?

-Doug "Whitey" Jackson

Hi Doug:
The word "qum" simply means "(he) rose", "(he) had risen" or "(he was) resurrected". The context is past tense. The addition of (he) or (he was) is implied but not added to the text grammatically. However "low" translated "of him" (Lamed-Vav) follows "qum" in Matthew 28:6. The time frame is limited by the context of our LORD's resurrection on the third day after his crucifixion and the timing of the disciples coming early on the first of the week to the empty sepulchre.

Kindly,
Stephen
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