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Vulgate rendering agrees with Peshitta
About Jerome........I think that it needs to be made quite clear in all of this, that Jerome HATED THE JEWS and only used Jewish Believers to learn Hebrew (and perhaps Aramaic). Jerome was a BIG TIME ANTI-SEMITE.

Yes, Jerome's "Vulgate" was the ONLY Western Bible for 1,100 YEARS, but it still stands that HE HATED THE JEWS, and he used Jewish people to further his own means.

I can provide PROOF for all of what I say here, if need be.

This is widespread knowledge......Jerome's Anti-Semitism. And it needs TO NOT BE FORGOTTEN!

Shlama Kulkhon:
It's probable that Jerome was deeply influenced by the Aramaic Peshitta as well as the Hebrew TN"K when he translated the Latin Vulgate. I think it very interesting that the Catholic Church used his Vulgate, and still do to this day.

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The Douay-Rheims Bible, also known as the Rheims-Douai Bible or Douai Bible and abbreviated as D-R, is a translation of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate into English. The New Testament was published in one volume with extensive commentary and notes in 1582. The Old Testament followed in 1609???10 in two volumes, also extensively annotated. The notes took up the bulk of the volumes and had a strong polemical and patristic character. They also offered insights on issues of translation, and on the Hebrew and Greek source texts of the Vulgate. The purpose of the version, both the text and notes, was to uphold Catholic tradition in the face of the Protestant Reformation which was heavily influencing England. As such it was an impressive effort by English Catholics to support the Counter-Reformation.

The Douay-Rheims Bible is a translation of the Latin Vulgate, which is itself a translation from Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic texts. The Vulgate was largely created due to the efforts of Saint Jerome (345-420), whose translation was declared to be the authentic Latin version of the Bible by the Council of Trent.

Apart from any negative rhetoric, m'-thinks it a fascinating thought that from the time of the Counsel of Trent till this day, the Greek New Testament has been solidly propagated by Protestant Christianity while unwittingly, the Catholic Church has an unbroken tradition of reading from Jerome's Latin translation of the Peshitta New Testament and the T"NK.

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shlomo lkhoon,

Although St Jerome translated the OT from Hebrew, he corrected the Old Latin NT according to some Greek manuscript.

In regards to him being anti-Semitic; I find it strange given that he use to study with Rabbis, and from them he got the idea of translating the OT from the Hebrew instead of the Greek Septuagint.
I think the popular quote that everyone attributes to him is not his, but rather that of Saint Chrysostom (from Saint Chrysostom 8 homilies against the Jews).

I find it highly doubtful that the Peshitta had "YHWH" originally instead of the "marya".
And in regards to Talmud quote, it speaks of "Divine Names" and not "The Divine Name".

push bashlomo,
Shlama akhi Stephen,

Quote:(BTW-peshitta/simple is roughly equivalent to vulgate/common)

Astute observation! It never occurred to me. What a thought-provoker!

And if some Catholic scholars have known that Jerome translated from the Peshitta, and knew the Peshitta to be original, this makes sense to me why they'd have stuck so ardently to the Vulgate all this time. Just as the Orthodox have clung to the Greek because of the Septuagintal foundation (which I've been getting more and more impressions of it containing some superior readings than found in the MT). Like trails of crumbs of truth scattered all over the place. Reminds me of Ruach Qadim 2 for some reason LOL!

Really though, your observation really does strike me. Perhaps that's WHY the Vulgate was called The Vulgate ("vulgar" tongue, i.e. common tongue)???

I remember Catholic scholar Giuseppe Ricciotti having some things to say about Jerome and a handful of other early Fathers when I plumbed his "Life of Christ" book (posted June 03) for anything connecting the New Testament sources to Aramaic originality. Surprisingly, this Catholic scholar of the first half of the 20th century, for whatever reasons, was convinced that the original Matthew was in Aramaic, and this was mostly per his reading of Papias and Jerome. Imagine that! Either he knew something from where he stood in the Church (which I doubt, since he is plain about his view of oral Aramaic originality and Greek transciption for the rest of the NT), otherwise he somehow was able to honestly read the Fathers with the same type of interpretative eyes as Andrew Gabriel Roth, and conclude that the "Hebrew Dialect" did not refer to Hebrew itself, but specifically to Aramaic! Apparently, not the first Catholic scholar to do so!

shlom lokh oH Ryan,

In regards to the Catholic Church, they have the following position in regards to the Aramaic text, here it is:
-The Aramaic Matthew was composed around 50AD
-When Saint Paul went to Rome in 60AD he had access to the Aramaic Matthew.
-The Aramaic Matthew got translated to Greek around 70-80AD
-The Greek Matthew was either translated by St Matthew's himself or some other Christian
-Since they believed that the Aramaic Matthew was lost, as such the Greek Matthew became canonical; because they believe it to be very similar to the Aramaic Matthew.
-The Catholic Church has never questioned the fact that Matthew was originally in Aramaic.

-Church considers that Luke was written in an elegant Greek
-They base this on the preface/prologue, as it seems not to be based on other sources but his own
-They say that his use of technical terms for cures and medicines shows his knowledge of Greek
-They believe that it was written around 63AD

-The Greek Mark was based on St Mark travelling with St Peter
-He uses simple sentence-structure
-He uses parataxis style
-He translates direct speeches literally from the Aramaic into Greek
-He uses the present tense 150 times in an unexpected way jumping from one tense into another within the same passage.
-He is considered to offer more details than others on some of the events.
-Written around 64AD

-It's a spiritual Gospel
-The text is Greek and written in 98AD

I obviously don't agree with the logic behind the Greek Matthew (we'll have to send them a copy of the Peshitta), Greek Luke (technical terms LOL! ), Greek Mark (sounds Aramaic to me), and Greek John (no proofs for the Greek)

push bashlomo,
Shlama all--

Having had a chance to look at the Latin for Matti 7:6, I have a question for those whose Latin is stronger than mine. Here is the text from the Vulgate:

Mat 7:6 nolite dare sanctum canibus neque mittatis margaritas vestras ante porcos ne forte conculcent eas pedibus suis et conversi disrumpant vos

I highlight the first four words because, to my mind, it seems to be conventional from the Greek. I am not aware of "sanctum" meaning anything other than "holy" and don't think (again I could be wrong) that it can be confused for earrings as two Aramaic words are. It seems pretty clear:

nolite = don't give
dare = that which is
sanctum = holy
canibus = to dogs

The other examples may hold water but this one was really close to my heart. Perhaps I have misunderstood and the "earrings on dogs" is in a particular mss like in the Old Latin family? Please advise.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
Just read about Jerome...........WOW.

St. Jerome, born Eusebius Hieronymous Sophronius, was the most learned of the Fathers of the Western Church. Truly a translator extraordinaire,
he had his own Achille's heel - a deep fear-hatred-paranoia of the feminine .... and an equally deep fear-hatred-paranoia of the Jews.

Saint Jerome

Christianity's anti-sexual obsession,
Saint Jerome,
the scapegoating of the Jews

by Friedrich Heer

Monasticism has attracted many mature men and women who are rightly credited with great spiritual and humanitarian achievements, both in Europe and the East. But many Christians, living monastic lives in this wicked world, have failed to achieve such physical and spiritual maturity. Sexuality runs wild and distorts them. Fearful and jealous of sex, they persecute the filthy woman, the lazy mob, all sinful mankind. To them the 'worldly-wanton' Jew embodies and magnifies every sexual impulse, in the same way that the Devil was depicted in the Middle Ages as a Jew, and as the father of all Jews with oversized genitals. If Christians of the male sex happen to be intellectuals as monks, their sharp intelligence tends to combine with their undeveloped, repressed and brutalized sexuality to produce a harsh and bitter enemy to those devilish adversaries - women and Jews.

St. Jerome appears to us the archetype of such a neurotic, monastic intellectual. Modern monks who realize the potential dangers know that immature, undisciplined sexuality can lead to murder and suicide. For this reason, a study of St. Jerome's sexual problems by a doctor, Charles-Henri Nodet, was incorporated by French Carmelites in their ??tudes Carm??litaines (1952).

There is a close link between St. Jerome's savage condemnation of the Female sex and His denigration of the Jew. St. Jerome knew from experience what the wealthy, licentious women of the Roman aristocracy were like, and he may well have based his portrayal of sexy women on them. Like many other neurotics, he made a distinction between love and sexual lust. Love was divine, virginal, manly, asexual. Sexual lust was obscene, fit for pigs and dogs, rather than human beings. In marriage a woman should become as a man, practice continence and serve Christ - but only after the children were born. Why have children, in any case? Childbirth was a dirty, strenuous affair and brought nothing but worries. Even before the advent of Christianity, a wave of hatred of sex swept the last days of the Ancient World. St. Jerome took it up and intensified it. The Ancient World foundered on a low birth-rate.

To St. Jerome marriage was the Old Testament, the Law. It was 'carnal' and thus stood condemned. Virginity, however, was the Gospel To be Christian meant to be or to become virgin - as a widow or a man to renounce sinful life. Adam and Eve had a sexual relationship only after the Fall. Marriage and sex were dominant from the Fall to Salvation through Christ. Christ was man living without sex.

Rebirth in Christ conferred 'virginity'. Time and again St. Jerome invokes St. Paul in his attacks on sex, sensuality and women.

St. Jerome displays the colossal egotism of the bachelor who refuses to have anything to do with the 'filth' that is woman. His invective betrays the fear of the neurotic who had never been able to follow his own sexual nature to maturity. Often he compares marriage with Sodom. A husband could love his wife only if he abstained from all sexual intercourse with her. Fear of sex induced St. Jerome to speak out even against bathing.

St. Jerome gave vent to his pent-up aggressiveness, the evil fruit of his warped sensuality - and also supplied a model for the next fifteen hundred years - in furious attacks on all and everything he considered his enemies: camels, dogs, pigs, forgers, madmen, scorpions, hydras, wild boars, sows - such was the vocabulary Jerome applied to his dear neighbours.

In such surroundings there was no place for Jews. He was now and for ever more the 'carnal', 'lewd' and 'materialistic' Jew. This is well worth noting. Long before the Jew was condemned for his business acumen and denounced as a devilish capitalist, he had been unmasked theologically as a materialist, a child of the wicked carnal world and the product of filthy sexual lust.

And A bit more......................

Through the following centuries papal proclamations, church sermons, pastoral letters, and council edicts heaped contumely upon the Jews for having crucified Jesus and for refusing to embrace Christianity. St. Ambrose, archbishop of Milan, applauded the burning of a synagogue by a Christian mob: "I hereby declare that ... I gave the orders for it to be done so that there should no longer be any place where Christ is denied." In 415 CE St. Cyril, bishop of Alexandria, incited a Christian mob to expel Jews from the city and seize their property. At about that time St. Augustine declared that the fate of the Jews is to be downtrodden and dispersed; they "forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus." St. Jerome warned, "Jews are congenital liars who lure Christians to heresy. They should therefore be punished until they confess." More than eight hundred years later, St. Thomas Aquinas considered it lawful and desirable "according to custom, to hold Jews, because of their crimein perpetual servitude."
shlomo lkhoon,

I'm withdrawing from this thread.

push bashlomo,
shlomo keefa,

But thank you for sharing that information on the Catholic Church with me. I really appreciate it!

Akh Ryan
I'm hurt that the historical truth about some of "the Fathers of the Roman Church" being Anti-Semites was burdensome to at least one person on this thread.

The truth about the history of "Christianity" was full of this kind of thing (Anti-Semitism), especially in the West.

And NOT just in the Roman Church.

But it's important that the truth be known, so that it doesn't happen again.

Shlama, Albion
Shlama all--

Obviously, I am well aware of Jerome's problems with my people. I was though hoping to get someone's view on if I translated the Latin of Matti 7:6 correctly or not. It seems to me that Matti 7:6 in Vulgate is NOT a Peshitta reading, but Mark 9:49 definitely is.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
Monasticism is a far cry from the HATRED of sex and women!

The literal war that was waged against the Celtic Church because of differing Monastic traditions (the date of Passover and Monastic hairstyles among other issues) shows the weakness of the Roman Church.

Jerome was so hungup about sex that he stopped BATHING because he feared that it would lead to LUST. PLEASE...........

These men were emotionally and mentally SICK!

Their hatred of women was legendary.

One more reason that they felt that the Celtic Church must be subdued at all costs!

A Church that allowed women virtually equal roles..............the Roman Church was against any idea such as this!

Shlama, Albion

Rafa Wrote:Shlama Akhi Andrew. I was wondering- do you think Jerome or the Vulgate is "bad"? I'm curious, since I like the Vulgate. I think it is tainted by Jerome's hellenism at points, but I also think of it as an alternative to the Septuagint. It contains Hebrew from a precursor to the Masoretic text, so that sounds pretty useful.Sure chastity for clerics is a Western invention, but I also apreciate the Monastic life he incentivated.
Shlama all--

I can separate the man's follies from his work. The Vulgate is like anything else. It is a product of its time and has good and bad aspects. It is neither 100% inspired (no translation is, including mine) nor 100% garbage. We need to study as many versions as possible to have a shot at the truth.

If my late father can like listening to Wagner--and he did--I can read the Vulgate from time to time without getting angry.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

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