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Learning Aramaic Pronunciation
#1
Greetings all!

I've been studying Paul Younan's Interlinear Peshitta and learning the Estrangelo script. In seeking to know how to pronounce the Aramaic, I came across "Living Words" by Joseph Elias. The transliterations he provides have been helpful, but the transliterations sometimes don't match completely or seem to be reflecting pronunciation rules of which I am unfamiliar, such as when a "nuwn" seems to go silent or becomes a "waw." I don't know if this is a grammatical issue or if it is a discrepancy between texts.

Are there resources available which present transliterated Aramaic alongside the Estrangelo script in order to learn pronunciation?

Would either "Teach Yourself Aramaic" (swadaya script) by Mar Aprem or "Classical Aramaic" by Dr. Errico and Fr. Bazzi provide a good grounding that would assist in learning pronunciation of the Peshitta in the Estrangelo script? Do the other scripts represent the same sounds just in a different form of writing?

Shlama,
kingskeep
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#2
Shlama Kingskeep,

Unfortunately there is no written manual that will teach you the proper pronunciation. Several obstacles come into play, first and foremost is that there is no one dialect of Aramaic that is considered to be the standard. The major groupings, eastern and western, themselves have several sub-groupings usually related to tribal affiliation and church denomination.

If you would like to learn Eastern Aramaic as it is pronounced by the Church of the East, the best thing to do is to attend a parish and hear the sounds as the liturgy and readings are recited. I think you are in the Austin area, if so there's another option in Western Aramaic if you would like to visit Our Lady's Maronite (Catholic) Church, on 1320 E 51st St (tel. (512) 458-3693) I know portions of their liturgy are still in Aramaic.

Since there isn't a Church of the East near you, you can watch these clips:

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/holy-litur...--st-marys

This is from St. Mary's Church of the East (http://www.saintmarysdetroit.org/) in Michigan. They broadcast weekly. Having a copy of the written liturgy in Aramaic in hand, you can pause-rewind the recordings and get an idea of how the words are pronounced. It's a very tedious task, I don't mean to discourage you but take it slowly.

Also, Thackston's grammar provides a solid basis for pronunciation according to the eastern tradition.

Take care!
Shamasha Paul
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#3
Shlama Kingskeep,

You know, I bought Joseph Elias' book: 'Living Words; The Words of Christ In Aramaic-English Interlinear Edition', when Elias first published it back in 2002.

It's definitely NOT the Eastern Syriac that he's quoting from.

His words translated (or transliterated) into English don't even translate correctly.

He says on the bottom of page 3 in fact: "The Aramaic transcription in English alphabet adopted in this edition SHOULD APPROXIMATE THE ARAMAIC pronunciation and give the reader an experience of hearing Christ speaking in His native language."

This sounds sort of like Lamsa, or Rocco Errico to me.

But I've learned enough transliterated Hebrew and Syriac now, to where this "language" of Elias is NEITHER of those.

That's strange to me.

He should have taken the Eastern Text of the P'shitta New Covenant and simply transliterated it, but that's just my two pence worth.

What is it with these guys that they take something so simple to do, and screw it up!? <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: -->

Shlama in Messiah, Albion




kingskeep Wrote:Greetings all!

I've been studying Paul Younan's Interlinear Peshitta and learning the Estrangelo script. In seeking to know how to pronounce the Aramaic, I came across "Living Words" by Joseph Elias. The transliterations he provides have been helpful, but the transliterations sometimes don't match completely or seem to be reflecting pronunciation rules of which I am unfamiliar, such as when a "nuwn" seems to go silent or becomes a "waw." I don't know if this is a grammatical issue or if it is a discrepancy between texts.

Are there resources available which present transliterated Aramaic alongside the Estrangelo script in order to learn pronunciation?

Would either "Teach Yourself Aramaic" (swadaya script) by Mar Aprem or "Classical Aramaic" by Dr. Errico and Fr. Bazzi provide a good grounding that would assist in learning pronunciation of the Peshitta in the Estrangelo script? Do the other scripts represent the same sounds just in a different form of writing?

Shlama,
kingskeep
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#4
Shlama Paul,

Thank you for your helpful response. Your suggestion for listening to liturgy is actually similar to how I started with Hebrew and not discouraging at all <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> The combination of melody with the vocalizations greatly assists my process of language acquisition, and now I have a place to get this for the Eastern Aramaic.

Is this the Thackston's grammar to which you are referring?
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.aramaicbooks.com/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=103">http://www.aramaicbooks.com/product_inf ... cts_id=103</a><!-- m -->


and Albion, thank you for saving me from what appears to be a misguided purchase. I was seriously considering getting this book. A straight transliteration of the Eastern Peshitta seems to be what I'm looking for, though evidently such a thing doesn't currently exist. At least I know now why I was having difficulty locating it.

Do you know whether the transliterations in Elias' book just do not translate properly into Eastern Aramaic, or whether they don't translate properly into any Aramaic dialect whatsoever? Hopefully he was working to at least accomplish a transliteration of a specific dialect.

Shlama in Messiah to you both,
Andrew
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#5
Dear Andrew,

You asked:

"Albion, thank you for saving me from what appears to be a misguided purchase. I was seriously considering getting this book. A straight transliteration of the Eastern Peshitta seems to be what I'm looking for, though evidently such a thing doesn't currently exist. At least I know now why I was having difficulty locating it.

Do you know whether the transliterations in Elias' book just do not translate properly into Eastern Aramaic, or whether they don't translate properly into any Aramaic dialect whatsoever? Hopefully he was working to at least accomplish a transliteration of a specific dialect."

I THINK that he might have used the Swadaya script to translate the Western PeshittO.

None of it sounds anything like the Eastern P'shitta dialect of Syriac.

His translations are FAR from that. And I don't really care for them.

You need to wait till Andrew Gabriel Roth finishes his Mari/P.E.A.C.E. translation, I'm guessing by mid-August, or early September.

I've actually read his Matthew's Gospel, and it's AWESOME!

I know that waiting is HARD, but I've been waiting over a couple years now, since he first started his Mari/P.E.A.C.E. Project, as a seminal thought.

Don't waste your money on Elias' work. It's a burn.

Hope that this helps.

Shlama in Yeshua, Albion
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#6
Shlama Albion,

I appreciate your feedback. There are a number of pages of Elias' book available through the Google book search, and though the wording may not be the Eastern dialect, I still feel that I've gained from working through the pronunciations as he shows them. The answer to my original consternation about the mismatches between versions seems to be that he's using some version of the Western dialect Peshitto.

He does speak to some academic decisions he made in the renderings where he replaced Greek borrowings with Aramaic equivalents. At this point, I'm not familiar enough with the landscape to know whether that takes the text closer to or further away from its origins.

And if it is the Peshitto he's using, people who study languages often encounter and sometimes learn a variety of dialects in the process anyway, as it's just the way that languages are.

So far, this is the most helpful work in print that I've found to help get a handle on a manner of pronunciation, even if it isn't in the Eastern dialect that I ultimately want to study and learn. Doing a straight transliteration of the entire text was perhaps beyond the scope of the resources of Mr. Elias, as this is quite a challenge as we can see from what Andrew Gabriel Roth has gone through to get Mari/PEACE published.

Yes, I'd like to find something like a straight transliteration of the Peshitta; but until that comes along, I can work with something that isn't exactly what I'm looking for, and thank you for explaining some of the background of it.

Todah rabbah,
Andrew
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#7
Shlama Andrew,

Hey, if Elias' book will work for you, I'm excited!

I tried to compare it to at least two other editions of the P'shitta N.T., Paul Younan's Interlinear Peshitta NT, and then Janet Magiera's PeshittO NT, and it doesn't compare to either text.

Not in any way, really.

But if it can meet your needs until Akhi Andrew Gabriel Roth's Mari/P.E.A.C.E. comes out, then it's all GOOD! <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

I'm glad that you followed your needs and your heart......I'm still "a newbie" really, when it comes to the P'shitta New Covenant.

Thanks for writing Andrew, Albion
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#8
shlom lokh oH Andrew,

I took a quick look at the book that you've mentioned "Living Words"

In the case of luqa 2:49 he is quoting the Peshitta and doing it in the Eastern Syriac Accent. In one case he pronounced the word "ab" as "abi" which is more in keeping with neo-Eastern Syriac

In the case of Matay 3:15 he quotes the word "shvoq" as "shboq" which might indicates that he might have lived in Lebanon.

Since he uses an elaborate way of writing the vowels I would recommend that you listen to the Assyrian Qurbana, and you???ll quickly be able to use his book to learn the Eastern Syriac accent.

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
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#9
Shlama Keefa-morun,

Thank you for looking into this and offering your suggestion. With the feedback, I was prompted to dig around a bit more on youtube, and I found that someone has just begun to post readings beginning with Matthew/Mattai at:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5RRkmrm8I8">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5RRkmrm8I8</a><!-- m -->

Mattai 1:1 sounds like: K'tobo d'yeliduthayhe d'Yeshua hamashicho breh (d')Dauwid breh d'Abruhowm.

I'm able to follow the Estrangelo in the Peshitta along with this quite well.

The video tags say Syria, Phoenicia, and Lebanon; and with the "b" instead of "v" pronunciation, is this indicating these readings are in the Eastern Syriac?

Todah Rabbah,
Andrew
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#10
Shlama Andrew,

That's western Aramaic, which emphasizes OH sounds as in SHLOMO. Eastern (and original) Aramaic pronunciation is-well like above --SHLAMA.

SHLAMA w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
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#11
Shlama Akhi Andrew:
Notice also that Matthew 1:16 pronounces "gabrah" with the "b" instead of the aspired "w".

Shlama,
Stephen
<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">http://www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- w -->
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#12
breekh ramsho oH Andrew (aka Kingskeep),

The recording is in the Western Syriac Accent; this incidentally happens to be the same accent that I use and is recited by a fellow Syriac Maronite.

Here are a few tricks to get around this whole Eastern/Western Syriac-Aramaic accent (in the classical):

-The following letters can take more than one pronunciation depending on their place in a word and what precedes them according to certain rules:
b,g,d,k,p,t
b -> v
g -> gh (no English equivalent)
d -> dh ("the" in English)
k -> kh (no English equivalent)
p -> ph ("ph" in Philippe)
t -> th ("th" in three)

-In neo-Eastern Syriac-Aramaic => b -> w
-In Classical Eastern Syriac-Aramaic => b -> v
-In Eastern Syriac-Aramaic the p is only pronounced as "p" and never "ph"
-In Eastern Syriac-Aramaic the "Heth" is pronounced as "KHeth" by some and "Heth" by others
-In Western Syriac-Aramaic the "Heth" is only pronounced as "Heth"
-In Western Syriac-Aramaic the "v" is pronounced as "b" by some and "v" by others
-In Western Syriac-Aramaic the p is only pronounced as "ph" and never "p??? (unless you develop a belief like me that "p" and "ph" have their place according to the rules)
-In Western and some Eastern Syriac-Aramaic the d is only pronounced as "d" and never "dh"

-The vowels differ in the following:
Short a => "a" in Eastern and "a" in western
Long a => "A" in Eastern and "O" in western
Short e => "??" in Eastern and "??" in western
Long e => "??" in Eastern and "??" in western
Short i => "i" in Eastern and "i" in western
Long i => "ee" in Eastern and "ee" in western
Short u => "o" in Eastern and "u" in western
Long u => "oo" in Eastern and "oo" in western

I hope you find this helpful!
keefa-morun
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#13
Thank you Andrew and Stephen for pointing out these key aspects. This is all helping me identify and sort through specific distinctions.

And yes Keefa-morun, I do find the chart very helpful. Thank you for putting that together and posting it. I've placed it in my research files for future reference.

Interesting that the consonant variations take place in the BGDKPT letters, the same series which undergoes pronunciation variations in Hebrew denoted with the dagesh.

Shlama b'Mshikha,
Andrew
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#14
Shlama all,

In my web wanderings I found there is an Aramaic version of the Jesus Film at:

http://www.jesusfilm.org/languages/index.html

just scroll down and click on the Assyrian link to watch it.

The film is based on the gospel of Luqa, and uses a few verses from other books (Mattai, Yukhanan, and Revelation). Once the ministry section of the film begins, the narration departs frequently from the order in which Luqa wrote them. The presentation shows some good research, but in my opinion, the overall approach presents Yeshua and His teachings somewhat inaccurately.

As far as the language, I've been able to match a few words while following along in the Peshitta, but the text is sometimes adapted or condensed, and of course the words are flying by at "native tongue" speed.

I did watch the English version first to find and note the verses being spoken. I can share what I put together if anyone is interested. The text of the early years seemed to be mostly adapted and not fitting the text of the Peshitta, so I started tracking the narrative when Yeshua is in the boat at 17:33 in the movie. This is actually Luqa 18:10-14. The movie then jumps back to around Luqa 6:12 and the naming of the twelve.

The dialogue seems to be at least some version of the Eastern pronunciation.

Shlama,

kingskeep
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#15
Shlama Kingskeep,

kingskeep Wrote:The dialogue seems to be at least some version of the Eastern pronunciation.

It is an Eastern pronunciation, but more importantly this is what's known as a dialect of "Neo-Aramaic" (specifically, the Assyrian/Chaldean dialect). The relationship to the classical tongue is akin to our modern English to Victorian English.

It is a very simplified Aramaic compared to the old. It is the modern standard vernacular of Aramaic speakers today.

+Shamasha
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