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Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24
#35
Shlama to all and you Akhi David--

For the record, I agree with Shamasha Paul and also translate this instance of GAMLA as "heavy rope". I have been astonished as well David at how narrow you have been in assessing the objective evidence. The fact is, in addition to all the reasons Shamasha Paul stated, we do NOT use Greek as our guide nor is it the case that "heavy rope" doesn't work contextually.

One thing that you have totally failed to address is this idea. Y'shua is talking to a RICH man and saying "How hard is it for you to enter the kingdom!" He doesn't say "impossible" and the fact is that Y'shua had several weathly followers (Yosip or Ramtha, Niqodemus, Joanna, etc) that would to my mind strongly argue against "camel". If we have "camel" then it is IMPOSSIBLE and while with YHWH all things are possible, Y'shua was making a comment rooted in people's everyday experience, not an argument in expectation of miracles. His comment a few lines later "for nothing is impossible without Elohim" is with respect to His Father's ability to save men though they are flawed, but it is Y'shua's comment on how difficult (again not impossible) it is for rich men to enter the kingdom that causes the disciples to ask a question that elcits the "nothing is impossible" line. But prior to that, it is all coming from a non-miracle expecting paradigm.I know you can read this in the Aramaic as easily as we can, and this whole "it doesn't matter how fluent these others are I am right" tactic is not worthy of you my friend.

Staying on point here, a heavy rope CAN fit through a literal needle's eye IF, and only IF it is unraveled into the thinnest possible strands. That unravelling is a clear visual metaphor for the rich man "unravelling his fortune". I don't need to tell you how key a concept unravelling is in Aramaic though to "disslolving/destroying". This is true, for example, in talking about divorce as the unmaking/unravelling marraige. Is it easy? NO. But Y'shua's point is that in the real world of the everyday man (which is why he talks in parables of mustard seeds, sowing, fishing, etc) is that it can be done if the commitment is strong enough.

I think this is ironclad. "heavy rope" fits not only Y'shua's speech patterns but also the exact context of the actual event in the Gospels. Instead, what we have seen from you is that the Greek disagrees and my point back is, again, who cares about the Greek? Aramaic Primacy is NOT CONCERNED with what the LATER GREEK redactors did. If I were you I would not be so quick to dismiss the ancient Semitic traditons that Shamasha Paul refers to, nor would I devalue Paul's scholarship, my scholarship and yes, not even Lamsa's. The fact is Lamsa got this one right.

And finaly, you crossed the line with personal attacks. I think you owe Stephen Silver an apology.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
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Messages In This Thread
Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by ograabe - 06-26-2008, 11:30 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-02-2008, 08:40 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by yaaqubyl - 07-02-2008, 09:56 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-02-2008, 11:50 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by *Albion* - 07-03-2008, 12:12 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-03-2008, 12:58 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by yaaqubyl - 07-03-2008, 10:12 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by ograabe - 07-05-2008, 12:31 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-08-2008, 09:42 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-21-2008, 08:50 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-22-2008, 01:47 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-22-2008, 07:37 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-23-2008, 04:19 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-23-2008, 07:15 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-24-2008, 06:58 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-25-2008, 12:13 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-25-2008, 01:30 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by ograabe - 07-26-2008, 06:39 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by ograabe - 07-26-2008, 10:18 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-26-2008, 11:16 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by Paul Younan - 07-27-2008, 02:13 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by Paul Younan - 07-27-2008, 03:34 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by Paul Younan - 07-27-2008, 04:59 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-27-2008, 04:03 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by Paul Younan - 07-27-2008, 06:33 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by Andrew Gabriel Roth - 07-27-2008, 07:13 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by ograabe - 07-27-2008, 08:20 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-27-2008, 08:34 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by Paul Younan - 07-27-2008, 08:52 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-27-2008, 11:30 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by Amatsyah - 07-27-2008, 11:43 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by *Albion* - 07-28-2008, 04:39 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-28-2008, 02:21 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by konway87 - 05-19-2010, 12:15 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by konway87 - 05-19-2010, 04:34 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by Jerry - 05-22-2010, 05:03 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by distazo - 05-23-2010, 06:58 AM

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