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Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24
#33
Shlama Akhi Paul,

Please excuse me for seeming obtuse, but do we know that BAR BAHLULE is giving a meaning that was current in Yeshua's time? I can find no such usage in The Peshitta OT nor in the Targums. Wherever "rope" is referrred to, "Khavla" or "Shwaytha" is used. Certainly no such usage is found in The Peshitta NT either. Ropes are spoken of, even ropes to tie ships, but the word is "Khavla":
Acts 27:32 ayej hwqbsw apla Nm arwqrqd hylbxl ajwyjrjoa wqop Nydyh 32
Then the soldiers cut the boat rope from the ship, and let the boat go adrift.


Also, the 3 Gospel accounts record our Lord as saying: "This is impossible with men." Lamsa wrote that it was possible to put a "gmla" - "rope" through the eye of a large carpet needle:
Quote:Everybody in the Orient knows that a camel could never pass through a needle???s eye, but that a rope might at least be forced through the eye of a large needle.
Lamsa contradicted the spirit of the passage by translating "gamla" as "a rope". He made it not only possible, but quite feasible to put a "gamla" through the eye of a needle.
The disciples were all the more amazed :
25.???It is easier for a camel to enter into the eye
of a needle than for a rich man to enter the
Kingdom of God."
26.But they were all the more astonished, and
they were saying among themselves, "Who
can be saved?
???
27.But Yeshua gazed upon them and he said to
them, "With the sons of men, this is
impossible
, but not with God; everything is
possible with God."

A camel entering the eye of a needle is impossible to us; a rope is not. The Jewish sages of Persia used a proverb about "an elephant passing through a needle's eye" to describe an impossibility. Palestine had no elephants; the camel was the largest animal. The very thing that commends "a rope" as the most fitting interpretation is what precludes it from being correct; it is fitting because it fits, though perhaps with much difficulty, but if it fits, it cannot be the correct word. It must seem an impossible task to men, or it does not work in the full context of the passage.

"If it fits, you must acquit.", is what I am saying. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> We have got the wrong candidate for the job if we think "rope" is it. I think the full array of evidence demands that we reject "rope".

The three witnesses of Greek Matthew, Greek Mark and Greek Luke tell us that the word "gamla" as used in the analogy of a rich man entering the Kingdom of God is "kamelov"- "Camel". A couple of mss. of Mark cannot outweigh the thousands of mss. containing Matthew, Luke and Mark. How would three independent Gospel translators of those 3 Gospels all miss the correct meaning? Did none of them know Aramaic as well as Lamsa? I must assume they were fluent in both Aramaic and Greek, and especially the Aramaic and Greek of the 1st century, as used in Israel (Aramaic) and Syria (Aramaic and Greek).
Perhaps "gamla" came to refer to a rope later in the history of Aramaic, but if it were understood that way in the 1st century by the apostles, I see no evidence that it was. To the contrary, I see their shock and incredulity as evidence that what our Lord said was absolutely mind numbing, concerning salvation. "Who then can be saved?" I don't think a rope and a large needle would have had the same effect on them.

Maybe I am wrong. What seems essential to this passage is that we come away from it understanding that God alone can save a person, rich or poor, and that we are not to trust in our wealth or good deeds or anything as guarantees of our ultimate salvation. "
It is impossible with men, but not with God; with Him, all things are possible."

"Rope" does not work for me. "Camel" does. Maybe its just me.

I promise I will try to stop beating a dead camel with a rope after this; wait a minute;You guys are the ones beating a dead camel with a rope! <!-- sSad --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sad.gif" alt="Sad" title="Sad" /><!-- sSad -->
I will try to stop beating a rope with a camel. <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink -->

Dave
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Messages In This Thread
Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by ograabe - 06-26-2008, 11:30 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-02-2008, 08:40 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by yaaqubyl - 07-02-2008, 09:56 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-02-2008, 11:50 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by *Albion* - 07-03-2008, 12:12 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-03-2008, 12:58 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by yaaqubyl - 07-03-2008, 10:12 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by ograabe - 07-05-2008, 12:31 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-08-2008, 09:42 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-21-2008, 08:50 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-22-2008, 01:47 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-22-2008, 07:37 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-23-2008, 04:19 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-23-2008, 07:15 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-24-2008, 06:58 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-25-2008, 12:13 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-25-2008, 01:30 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by ograabe - 07-26-2008, 06:39 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by ograabe - 07-26-2008, 10:18 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-26-2008, 11:16 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by Paul Younan - 07-27-2008, 02:13 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by Paul Younan - 07-27-2008, 03:34 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by Paul Younan - 07-27-2008, 04:59 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-27-2008, 04:03 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by Paul Younan - 07-27-2008, 06:33 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by ograabe - 07-27-2008, 08:20 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-27-2008, 08:34 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by Paul Younan - 07-27-2008, 08:52 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-27-2008, 11:30 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by Amatsyah - 07-27-2008, 11:43 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by *Albion* - 07-28-2008, 04:39 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by gbausc - 07-28-2008, 02:21 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by konway87 - 05-19-2010, 12:15 AM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by konway87 - 05-19-2010, 04:34 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by Jerry - 05-22-2010, 05:03 PM
Re: Camel or Rope? Matt: 19:24 - by distazo - 05-23-2010, 06:58 AM

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