A Question For Torah Keeping Messianics

[Stephen Silver]

To Stephen, are their any other bibles, translated from the aramaic, and that have the old and the new testaments in one volume, that one is still able to carry around, for example in a bag. Thanks for your correspondence. Obviously, lamsa is not the most accurate translation, but before that I was using versions based on the Greek. If the bible is not in a handy size, I may just have to buy it anyway, and keep it at home.

Shlama Akhi Sean:
Andrew Roth has translated the Bible from Aramaic into English. He is the one that you should seek out and ask. To my knowledge his work is finished and he is waiting on his printer for delivery at this time.

Shlama,
Stephen
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[Stephen Silver]

Shlama Akhi Stephen,

Where do you get your Aramaic? The first meaning of "Sharebta" is "generation"; after that-"genealogy","family","tribe","race", "nation". If our Lord had meant, "this race (The Jews) will not pass away, until all these things come to pass", He would have been saying that those things would never come to pass, for God had promised...

Shlama Akhi David:
I'm deferring to John Wesley Etheridge's translation. He uses the word "race". Also, I forgot that "sharbata" also means "tribe". A Compendious SYRIAC DICTIONARY of R. Payne Smith lists the word to mean "to propagate, generate" and "to be reckoned by geneology, counted according to families".
Yeshua was not referring just to the generation of the First Century, but he was referring to the nation of the Jews, their twelve tribes, their families, for as long as they are a nation. Moreover, Matthew 24:35, the very next verse sounds very much like Jeremiah 31:35-37. Even if you do use "generation" it must be used in the context of "generation, tribe, family, stock, line". This again is not "generation" only as in "First Century/time line/Jewish contemporaries to the Apostolic Age". This word is referring to the nation of Israel/the Jews as long as they exist as a nation. The nation of the Jewish people/Israel is precisely what Jeremiah 31:35-37 is referring to. As you can see, the Jews are a nation today. The Land of Israel is in the Third Commonwealth today. The passage of time has not caused the Jewish nation to disappear. Surely you can see this, David.

Shlama,
Stephen
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[gbausc]

Shlama Akhi Stephen,

I never argued that Israel has passed away; of course I agree that it is still a nation. I disagree that "Sharbatha" makes sense as "race" in Matthew 24, or in Matthew 23, or Luke 21, or Mark 13 or Matthew 12- all the references I posted and you choose to ignore along with the context of Matthew 24:

Therefore, it is nonsense for Yeshua to say "this race (of Jews) will not pass away until all these things be fulfilled."; that is tantamount to saying: "These things will never happen."

The "race" interpretation in Matthew 24 means that the predictions of "all these things" our Lord mentioned come to pass before "this race" passes away.But "this race" never passes away, therefore "all these things" may never come to pass.

If the verse is:

34 Verily I say unto you, this race shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.,

the implication is that Israel can then pass away after "all these things", which is a contradiction to Jeremiah 31. This translation also makes hay out of our Lord's words and reasoning. It is incoherent to say: "Israel will never pass away." (in Jeremiah); then, "Israel will not pass away until all these things will be fulfilled." That is a contradiction. It implies in Matthew 24 that Israel can and may pass away after "all these things come to pass". Even if you discount the implication, it puts a condition on something which should be unconditional: "This race does not pass away" until "all these things are fulfilled"

The "generation" translation presents no such problem. "Sharbatha" often means "generation" in the sense of "time period" in the NT.
It is also used in The Peshitta OT in Chronicles to refer to the generations in genealogies. Then we have the NT:
Mt 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
aroebra atbrs axysml amde lbbd atwlg Nmw aroebra atbrs lbbd atwlgl amde dywd Nmw aroebra atbrs dywdl amde Mhrba Nm atbrs lykh Nyhlk Mt 1:17
Is Matthew talking about 42 tribes? 42 nations? 42 races?
Since Sharbatha often refers to the generations of human offspring, it is associated with the normal time period between the birth of the parents to be and their children or their lifespan.

Surely you can see this, Stephen.


PS you quoted Smith's entry for the verb "Shrev":

Also, I forgot that "sharbata" also means "tribe". A Compendious SYRIAC DICTIONARY of R. Payne Smith lists the word to mean "to propagate, generate" and "to be reckoned by geneology, counted according to families".

How about checking out the feminine noun form, since it is a noun we're talking about:
a) generation, genealogy ;- a family,tribe,race,nation
b) order, rank
c) gram. origin

"Generation" is not an afterthought or secondary meaning; it is the first and most common meaning. That is why all Greek mss. have "genea"-"generation" in Matthew 24:34

???Sharbatha??? occurs 69 times in The Peshitta + Revelation; it is translated into Greek as fulhv (tribe) -21 times, genea-(generation) 34, genov (race)- 4 , other misc. (patriai, sungenea, allofulov,sumfeletov ???total=10)
To 1st century Greeks who knew Aramaic well, Sharbatha meant "genea" -"generation" more often than any other single idea. Hardly ever did it mean "genos" -"race". "Race" just does not make sense in Matthew 24:34; nor does it in Matthew 23,Luke 21,Matthew 12,Mark 13 or the three occurrences of "Sharbatha" in Matthew 1.

Dave

[Stephen Silver]

I disagree that "Sharbatha" makes sense as "race" in Matthew 24, or in Matthew 23, or Luke 21, or Mark 13 or Matthew 12

Shlama Akhi David:
Since we have each presented his opinion, I think it is fair to ask "let's agree to disagree." I'm going to move on to something else now.

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Shlama,
Stephen

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[gbausc]

Shlama Brother,

You have presented opinion. I have presented fact. And I here present more fact:

Please indulge me the printing of a long passage of scripture from Matthew 24-

1 And Jesus passed out of the temple to go away: and his disciples came to him, showing him the structure of the temple.
2 And he said to them: See you not all these? Verily I say to you, There will not be left here a stone upon a stone, that is not demolished.
3 And as Jesus sat on the mount of Olives, his disciples came, and said between themselves and him: Tell us when these things are to be; and what will be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world.
4 Jesus answered and said to them: Take heed, that no one deceive you.
5 For many will come in my name, and will say, I am the Messiah: and they will deceive many.
6 And you are to hear of conflicts, and the rumor of battles. See that you be not disquieted: for all these things must come; but the consummation is not yet.
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places.
8 But all these are only the commencement of sorrows.
9 And they will deliver you up to tribulation, and will kill you: and you will be hated by all nations, on account of my name.
10 Then many will be stumbled: and they will hate one another, and will betray one another.
11 And many false prophets will rise up; and they will deceive many.
12 And on account of the abounding of iniquity, the love of many will decline.
13 But he that shall persevere to the end, will have life.
14 And this announcement of the kingdom shall be published in all the world, for a testimony to all nations: and then will come the consummation.
15 And when you see the abominable sign of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place; then let the reader consider;
16 and then let them who are in Judaea, flee to the mountain:
17 and let him who is on the roof, not come down to take what is in his house:
18 and let him who is in the field, not return back to take his clothing.
19 But woe to those with child, and to them that are nursing, in those days.
20 And pray you, that your flight be not in winter, or on the sabbath.
21 For there will then be great distress, such as hath not been from the commencement of the world, until now, and will not be.
22 And unless those days should be cut short, no flesh would remain alive. But, for the elect???s sake, those days will be cut short.
23 Then, if any one shall say to you, Lo, the Messiah is here, or is there; give no credence.
24 For there will arise false Messiahs, and mendacious prophets; who will exhibit great signs, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25 Behold, I have told you beforehand.
26 If therefore they say to you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not out: or, Behold, he is in a secret chamber; give no credence.
27 As the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth unto the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
28 And wherever the carcass may be, there will the eagles be congregated.
29 And immediately after the distress of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not show her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be agitated.
30 And then will be seen the signal of the Son of man in heaven: and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, when they see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a great trumpet and they will collect together his elect from the four winds, from one extremity of heaven to the other.
32 And learn you an illustration from the fig-tree. As soon as its branches become tender and its leaves shoot forth, you know that summer is coming on.
33 So also you, when you perceive all these things, know you, that he is nigh, even at the door.
34 Verily I say to you, That this generation shall not pass away, till all these things shall be.
35 Heaven and earth will pass away; but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and of that hour, knoweth no man, nor even the angels of heaven, but the Father only.
37 And as the days of Noah, so will the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as, before the flood, they were eating and drinking, taking wives and giving to husbands, up to the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and knew not, until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then will two men be in the field; the one will be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; the one taken, and the other left.
42 Watch, therefore, since you know not at what hour your Lord cometh.
43 But know this, that if the lord of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have been awake, and would not have suffered his house to be broken into.
44 Therefore, be you also ready; for at an hour you do not expect, the Son of man will come.
45 Who then, is that faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath placed over his domestics, to give them their food in its time?
46 Happy is that servant, whom, when his lord shall come, he will find so doing.
47 Verily I say to you, He will place him over all that he hath.
48 But if that servant, being wicked, shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 and shall begin to beat his fellow-servants, and shall be eating and drinking with drunkards;
50 the lord of that servant will come in a day he will not expect, and in an hour he knoweth not,
51 and will cut him asunder, and will assign him his portion with the hypocrites; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus was speaking to His disciples and to them alone. They were the ones who had asked Him when the destruction of the temple would occur, and what the signs of His coming would be, and of the end of the world.
The personal pronoun???You??? occurs 25 times in the passage.

Yeshua told the disciples, ???when you see these things, know that it is near.???
He was not talking to the nation of Israel 2000 years hence;
he was not talking to dispensationalist Evangelicals 1900 years hence;
our Savior was talking to His 12 disciples in Jerusalem in AD 30, and he said that they would see ???all these things??? happen in that generation. That answers the question, ???When shall these things happen????

If Sharbatha meant ???race??? , then He told them nothing about ???when???; in fact, He would have utterly subverted their minds by such a reference, practically telling them that of all the things He predicted, none may happen in their generation, nor in any other generation, for Israel (???Sharbatha??? = ???Israel??? according to this theory) would never pass away, ever, according to Jeremiah 31, and therefore , ???Israel will not pass away until all these things come to pass??? means nothing at all, for Israel will never pass away.

But, of course, the above is only a desperate attempt to buttress a ridiculous eschatology. It is not the result of serious exegesis (???bringing out???) of the written word, either Greek or Aramaic; it is rather an eisegesis (???bringing into???) the text what the interpreter wants it to say.

The above passage is essentially repeated in Mark 13 and Luke 21. The Greek mss. all use the word ???genea??? ??????generation??? to translate ???Sharbatha??? in all three passages. The mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses should settle the matter. ???Genea??? can mean ???race???; it usually means ???generation??? in the sense of the multitude of people living at the same time.
SInce Yeshua spoke exclusively to His disciples and said to them: "You shall see all these things come to pass...", it is clear that the fulfillment would occur in their lifetime.

The sum total of the above considerations precludes the ???race??? interpretation.

Our Lord was speaking to His disciples and told them they would see His return.

Unbelief is no argument.

Peace & Blessings
Dave

[Stephen Silver]

David Bauscher wrote:

You have presented opinion. I have presented fact. And I here present more fact:

Please indulge me the printing of a long passage of scripture from Matthew 24-

Shlama Akhi David:
No, not this time old friend. Indeed, your "fact" is not fact but opinion, just like mine and everyone else on this forum. Even the most plain translation of any Aramaic word into English is "interpretation". That is why we can never rely entirely upon any translation, but some deserve honourable mention. Now, you may argue that your translation is superior to that of John Wesley Etheridge, whom in 1848 (more than 150 years ago) devoted himself to the translation of the New Testament from then existing manuscripts into King James English. However, I took considerable time to collate his paragraphic work to line up with my transcription of the Khabouris Codex. I took the time also to place his notes in the column by each corresponding verse. I did this because I wanted to honour his work, make it more easily readable and available to enquiring minds, but mostly as a guide for sourcing words and phrases in the Khabouris text. Wesley's accuracy is unimpeachable and his sensitivity to the original pronunciation of personal and place names preserves a dimension of the Peshitto/Peshitta text that one loses in the Anglicised translations. His notes are very helpful indeed.
When I defer to the interpretation of John Wesley Etheridge, I do it with humility because I respect his translation. It's withstood the test of time. His use of King James English does not mar his accuracy in translation. He's not perfect but he's very close to it. As I said in my last post "'nuff said", let's move on to something else, Akhi David.

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Shlama,
Stephen
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[gbausc]

Shlama Stephen,

It is not opinion that Yeshua was speaking to His Disciples alone and said to them
"And when you see the abominable sign of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place"...
"So also you, when you perceive all these things, know you, that he is nigh, even at the door."

He was not speaking to anyone but the disciples who were standing there then in AD 30 and telling them they would see the fulfillment of all these things in their lifetime.

That is not an opinion, Stephen.

In Deuteronomy 18, we read:

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

If any other Prophet had predicted what Yeshua had predicted in Matthew 24 to His disciples at the same time, and they did not see these predictions come to pass, they would have concluded that man was a false Prophet; I say the same applies to our Savior. If all that He predicted to his disciples did not transpire in the first century for them to witness, then He was a false Prophet and a false Messiah.

Of course, I do not believe He is a false Prophet or a false Messiah; but I would be forced to conclude He was, if all that He predicted did not occur in the days of His Apostles.
To whom was he speaking? He said, "You" 25 times to His disciples. That is a fact. Every "You" referred to them. That is a fact. If the signs and events He predicted would appear to them did not all appear to them, then He was wrong in His predictions and not The Messiah. That is a fact.

What is the point in moving on to something else, if you will not even deal with simple facts in a discussion? The above facts bear directly on the meaning of "Sharbatha" in chapter 24, as well as in Mark 13 and Luke 21. So do the Greek translations I pointed out and analyzed earlier. There is no opinion about the fact that all Greek mss. of Matthew, Mark and Luke have "genea" in all 3 of the parallel passages on the Lord's return. If "race" were the intended meaning, "genos" would much better convey the intention of the translators. I refuse to believe that Matthew, Mark and Luke were all translated by the same man, as any Greek scholar would see that they are written in different Greek styles and quality. It would be even less likely that 3 independent translators would each choose the same wrong translation (genea) in each of the synoptic Gospels in the account under consideration. The Greek is a 1st century translation of the Aramaic Peshitta by those who were fluent in both Aramaic and Greek, so their work is very valuable evidence to the Aramaic text and its meaning, especially when 3 of them agree together on the meaning of a particular Aramaic word.
I know you use the " 2 or 3 witnesses" principle from the Torah in this way.

Is this a matter of opinion?

Dave

[Stephen Silver]

Shlama Stephen,

It is not opinion that Yeshua was speaking to His Disciples alone and said to them
"And when you see the abominable sign of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place"...
"So also you, when you perceive all these things, know you, that he is nigh, even at the door."

He was not speaking to anyone but the disciples who were standing there then in AD 30 and telling them they would see the fulfillment of all these things in their lifetime.

That is not an opinion, Stephen.

What is the point in moving on to something else, if you will not even deal with simple facts in a discussion? The above facts bear directly on the meaning of "Sharbatha" in chapter 24, as well as in Mark 13 and Luke 21. So do the Greek translations I pointed out and analyzed earlier. There is no opinion about the fact that all Greek mss. of Matthew, Mark and Luke have "genea" in all 3 of the parallel passages on the Lord's return. If "race" were the intended meaning, "genos" would much better convey the intention of the translators. I refuse to believe that Matthew, Mark and Luke were all translated by the same man, as any Greek scholar would see that they are written in different Greek styles and quality. It would be even less likely that 3 independent translators would each choose the same wrong translation (genea) in each of the synoptic Gospels in the account under consideration. The Greek is a 1st century translation of the Aramaic Peshitta by those who were fluent in both Aramaic and Greek, so their work is very valuable evidence to the Aramaic text and its meaning, especially when 3 of them agree together on the meaning of a particular Aramaic word.
I know you use the " 2 or 3 witnesses" principle from the Torah in this way.

Is this a matter of opinion?

Dave

Shlama Akhi David:
You just don't get it do you? Yeshua was speaking to his JEWISH disciples. Yeshua came to HIS OWN PEOPLE-SHERBATHA. There were prophesies fulfilled by that "generation" and within the time period of the First Century. Nevertheless, history continued after the destruction of the Second Temple and the Jews were banned from living in Jerusalem after the Bar Kokhba revolts were crushed by Hadrian in 135 AD. The end of the world did not come, David. Yes, many of the Jews believed that the world would indeed end and Olam HaBa would be immediately ushered in but that obviously did not happen. Some words and phrases must be understood in the light of historical fact. Especially when a word like "sherbata" can mean "nation, tribe or people" as well as "generation".
So get over it and accept that an extreme preterist view like yours is like insisting that the world is flat. Let's move on to something else. I'm not a flat-earther, David.

Shlama,
Stephen
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[gbausc]

Shlama Akhi,

Oh, were His disciples Jewish? Thanks for the info.

Even so, according to you, His Jewish disciples did not see "all these things" -v. 33, which He said they would.

You refuse to deal with the facts I have presented very carefully and instead resort to name calling, which is a tactic used by someone losing an argument.
Evolutionists call Creationists "flat earthers", as if that should intimidate them into shutting up. You sound like an unbeliever when you resort to their tactics.

You wrote:

Yes, many of the Jews believed that the world would indeed end and Olam HaBa would be immediately ushered in but that obviously did not happen. Some words and phrases must be understood in the light of historical fact.

No, we cannot trust to what we think is obvious. "Obviously" men are not born of virgins, walk on water, raise the dead or rise from the dead, yet the church proclaims that a Man did these things, and His disciples did some of these things as well. If Yeshua destroyed the old creation and made it new by His atonement and resurrection, we would not know it apart from His word- "we walk by faith, not by sight" .(2 Cor. 5:7)

According to Yeshua's words, the Kingdom of God was to arrive and displace the Old Order, as a result of His death and resurrection in the first century.
We are to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, as Paul did :
(Acts 28:30 ?? And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Lu 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go and preach the kingdom of God.

I close with a very literal translation of 2 Cor. 5:

(for you) Nwkl (we are conventional) Nnynqt (& if) Naw (it is for God) ahlal (we are insane) Nnyjs (for) ryg (if) Na 13

For if we are insane, it is for God, and if we are conventional, it is for you.

(us) Nl (compels) Ula (of The Messiah) axysmd (for) ryg (the love) hbwx 14
(died) tym (every person) snlk (in the place of) Plx (that One) dxd (this) adh (that we reason) Nnynrd
(with Him) hl (died) tym (every person) snlk (so then) Nydm

For the love of The Messiah compels us to reason this: The One died in the place of every person, so then every person
died with Him.

(who live) Nyyxd (that those) Nylyad (died) tym (He) wh (every person) snlk (& in the place of) Plxw 15
(for The One) whl (but) ala (would live) Nwxn (for themselves) Nwhspnl (not) al
(& arose) Mqw (died) tym (their persons) Nwhypa (Who for) led (Who) anya

And He died in the place of every person that those who live would live, not for themselves, but for Him Who died for
them and arose.

(we know) Nnyedy (not) al (by the body) rgpb (a person) snal (we) Nnx (& from now) lykmw 16
(The Messiah) axysml (in the body) rgpb (we have known) Nedy (& if) Naw
(we know) Nnyedy (not) al (now) ash (from) Nm (but) ala

And from now on we do not know anyone by the body, and if we have known The Messiah by the body, from now on we
do not so know Him.

(is) wh (which in The Messiah) axysmbd (that) Nm (all) lk 17
(new) atdx (is) wh (the creation) atyrb (therefore) lykh
(with such) Nyhl (has passed away) rbe (the old order) atqyte

All that is in The Messiah is therefore the New Creation; the old order has passed away with these things.

(God) ahla (from) Nm (new) atdx (has become) awh (thing) Mdm (& every) lkw 18
(us) Nl (& He has given) bhyw (by The Messiah) axysmb (to Himself) hl (Who reconciled us) Nyerd (He) wh
(of the reconciliation) atwertd (the ministry) atsmst

And everything has become new from The God Who has reconciled us with Himself by The Messiah and He has given
us the ministry of the reconciliation.

This is the message we are to proclaim, and I am proclaiming it. It is the Gospel.

Blessings from "the insane" in the New Order,


Dave

[*Albion*]

Dave,

Why is it that every single Preterist that I've ever encountered is an AN ANTI-SEMITE?

Without exception, this has always been true.

Why is THAT?

The argument that you present to Stephen is 'a straw man' argument to be sure!

The Jews will ALWAYS be Beloved by YHWH, "for the sake of the Patriarch's".

Yeshua was A JEW when He walked here on Earth among men, AND HE IS STILL A JEW EVEN NOW, as He sits at the Right Hand of the Father.

I'm NOT gonna argue with you, because by your own admission, your "insane".

But Yeshua DID WARN US: "by their fruits you will know them".

Your always in attack mode Dave. Always.

Your a smart aleck, your unloving, unkind, and uncompassionate.

I no longer read your translation because I strongly feel that "a Bible translator" should NOT have the qualities that I just described above.

You are always telling OTHERS to "repent".

Take a good look in the mirror.

Stephen, don't let this guy get underneath your skin.

Maran Yeshua be with you Stephen.

Your Brother in Messiah, Albion

[Stephen Silver]

Shlama Akhi,

Oh, were His disciples Jewish? Thanks for the info.

Even so, according to you, His Jewish disciples did not see "all these things" -v. 33, which He said they would.

You refuse to deal with the facts I have presented very carefully and instead resort to name calling, which is a tactic used by someone losing an argument.
Evolutionists call Creationists "flat earthers", as if that should intimidate them into shutting up. You sound like an unbeliever when you resort to their tactics.

You wrote:

Yes, many of the Jews believed that the world would indeed end and Olam HaBa would be immediately ushered in but that obviously did not happen. Some words and phrases must be understood in the light of historical fact.

No, we cannot trust to what we think is obvious. "Obviously" men are not born of virgins, walk on water, raise the dead or rise from the dead, yet the church proclaims that a Man did these things, and His disciples did some of these things as well. If Yeshua destroyed the old creation and made it new by His atonement and resurrection, we would not know it apart from His word- "we walk by faith, not by sight" .(2 Cor. 5:7)

According to Yeshua's words, the Kingdom of God was to arrive and displace the Old Order, as a result of His death and resurrection in the first century.
We are to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, as Paul did :
(Acts 28:30 ?? And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Lu 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go and preach the kingdom of God.

I close with a very literal translation of 2 Cor. 5:

(for you) Nwkl (we are conventional) Nnynqt (& if) Naw (it is for God) ahlal (we are insane) Nnyjs (for) ryg (if) Na 13

For if we are insane, it is for God, and if we are conventional, it is for you.

(us) Nl (compels) Ula (of The Messiah) axysmd (for) ryg (the love) hbwx 14
(died) tym (every person) snlk (in the place of) Plx (that One) dxd (this) adh (that we reason) Nnynrd
(with Him) hl (died) tym (every person) snlk (so then) Nydm

For the love of The Messiah compels us to reason this: The One died in the place of every person, so then every person
died with Him.

(who live) Nyyxd (that those) Nylyad (died) tym (He) wh (every person) snlk (& in the place of) Plxw 15
(for The One) whl (but) ala (would live) Nwxn (for themselves) Nwhspnl (not) al
(& arose) Mqw (died) tym (their persons) Nwhypa (Who for) led (Who) anya

And He died in the place of every person that those who live would live, not for themselves, but for Him Who died for
them and arose.

(we know) Nnyedy (not) al (by the body) rgpb (a person) snal (we) Nnx (& from now) lykmw 16
(The Messiah) axysml (in the body) rgpb (we have known) Nedy (& if) Naw
(we know) Nnyedy (not) al (now) ash (from) Nm (but) ala

And from now on we do not know anyone by the body, and if we have known The Messiah by the body, from now on we
do not so know Him.

(is) wh (which in The Messiah) axysmbd (that) Nm (all) lk 17
(new) atdx (is) wh (the creation) atyrb (therefore) lykh
(with such) Nyhl (has passed away) rbe (the old order) atqyte

All that is in The Messiah is therefore the New Creation; the old order has passed away with these things.

(God) ahla (from) Nm (new) atdx (has become) awh (thing) Mdm (& every) lkw 18
(us) Nl (& He has given) bhyw (by The Messiah) axysmb (to Himself) hl (Who reconciled us) Nyerd (He) wh
(of the reconciliation) atwertd (the ministry) atsmst

And everything has become new from The God Who has reconciled us with Himself by The Messiah and He has given
us the ministry of the reconciliation.

This is the message we are to proclaim, and I am proclaiming it. It is the Gospel.

Blessings from "the insane" in the New Order,


Dave

Shlama Akhi David:
Are you sure that you don't want to retract this post? We are "insane"? Is that how you understand the Aramaic word [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Nnx Ny=4[/font] (UBS 1905) or [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)] Nny=4[/font] (Khabouris and Crawford)?

Understand the context of the statement Paul has written in II Corinthians 5:13. We are beside ourselves, in the presence of our Saviour Yeshua because we are fully dependent upon him and know nothing without him? However we must always appeal to an understanding heart in all men. Is this not correct? Contrariwise it's not fitting to present such a vitriolic diatribe, Akhi David. Your level of teaching demands that you tone it down and share your illumination of the Aramaic Peshitta text with a sound mind and a quiet and loving disposition. All teachers must adhere to this if they want to gain the respect of their students as well as their colleagues. Be well, Akhi David.

Shlama,
Stephen
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Shlama Akhi Stephen,

What vitriol? What diatribe? All I did was quote scripture and disagree with your name calling in referring to me as a "flat earther".

Don't lecture me about vitriol and how to teach with a quiet and loving disposition.

I have given considerable thought to your characterization of

many of the Jews believed that the world would indeed end and Olam HaBa would be immediately ushered in but that obviously did not happen.

and

an extreme preterist view like yours is like insisting that the world is flat

It seems you would characterize first century believers in The Messiah as "flat earthers", and that you think we modern Christians have progressed beyond them in our faith and doctrine. Even The Apostle John wrote several times, "I come quickly"; "I come at once", and "the time is soon" in Revelation. Peter wrote:
7.

The end of all things has arrived, therefore sober up and wake up to prayer

. 1 Peter 4:7
John wrote: 1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Mark 13 (The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English)
3. And when Yeshua sat down at Tora D??? Zaytha* opposite The Temple,
Kaypha and Yaqob and Yohannan and Andraeus asked him alone:
* (Mount of Olives)
4. ???Tell us, when will these things be? What is the sign when all these
things are near to being fulfilled?"
5. But Yeshua himself began to say to them, "Take heed lest a man shall
lead you astray."
The passage in Mark says these four Apostles: Kaypha and Yaqob and Yohannan and Andraeus came to our Lord and asked Him, "When shall these things be...? and Yeshua spoke to them and answered.

But no, Stephen Silver to the rescue! The Apostles were wrong about that, "obviously"; Stephen is right. The flat earth position of Preterism has been disproven by the modern futurist and Historicist Bible scholars. We must scrap 1st century faith of the Apostles and buy a bill of goods from self professed "experts" who advertise a "new and improved" version of the Christian faith. They have studied History, Greek, Theology, Eschatology, Ecclesiology and all the heresies of all the cults. They should know what's right!

Sorry, Steve, but that's how what you're telling me comes across.
You cannot believe the Apostles' writing and believe the prophecy position you are taking. You are denying the words of the Messiah and calling it scholarship and enlightenment. I refuse to accept that as merely a difference of opinion among believers to be tolerated. I see this happening everywhere; your arguments are simply an example of a pandemic which subverts millions of Western Evangelicals and Fundamentalists. I know whereof I speak, my friend. I suffered from the same disorder. Remember; I graduated from that bastion of militant Protestant fundamentalism, Bob Jones University. They train Pharisees and Scribes there by the shipload!

They learn dispensationalism, pre-trib, post trib and even mid trib rapture! They learn Pre-Millenialism, Post Millenialism and A-Millenialism- mostly Pre-Mil. They also learn racism (at least they did when I was there in the 70's) and anti-Catholicism. They even taught Billy Graham was an apostate working for Satan because he worked with Catholic priests in discipling converts from his crusades.It has taken me many years to unlearn much of the garbage I was taught and to learn the truth of the scriptures and The Spirit of Holiness.

My point is, I have been an ordained Pastor for 31 years, graduated from BJU in 1976, and I ate, drank, preached and slept Fundamental dispensational theology from my conversion until my third pastorate in the early 80's, when I began to rethink some of my positions. The more of the older works I read, the more I modified and changed, as I saw dispensationalism and the futurist and so called "literal" approach to prophecy (especially Revelation) was a modern innovation and was disjointed from Old Testament prophecy interpretation. The "Rapture" doctrine was an invention based on the vision of a young girl from Scotland in 1830, named "Margaret McDonald". Anyone who cares to may research this on the internet or get the book:
The Rapture Theory:
It's Surprising Origin
by Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D., 1976

I don't know if you believe in the rapture, Stephen; but you seem to believe in an eschatology which was popularized in relatively modern times, and seems to discard Apostolic teaching on the subject of eschatology as "primitive" or "antiquated", because, in your words, "

that obviously did not happen. Some words and phrases must be understood in the light of historical fact."

That philosophy is backward. The Bible should not be interpreted by history. History should be interpreted through scripture. The first approach is the secular approach; the second is the Christian approach.But creeping secularism has silently encroached upon the Christian culture and emasculated it.

I have little hope that you will accept anything in this post. I do hope you get angry, because I know we often need to get damned angry before we change our thinking and action that needs changing. Eventually, I hope you get angry with yourself for buying a bill of goods which keeps you in what can only be described as "utter darkness" compared to the light of eternal truth.I know the difference; I've been on both sides.

I may seem mean and miserable to Albion and to you; actually, I am very easy going and as happy as I believe is possible for anyone to be.

I have reconsidered my translation of "Shatyn":
Paul wrote: "If we are madmen, it is for God."

I am in good company, I think, though I may be a madman to you.

I could only hope you will become as "mad" as I am; Albion too. I think he has a lot of anger in him. And he thinks I'm nasty.

Why is it that every single Preterist that I've ever encountered is an AN ANTI-SEMITE?

What did I say that was anti Semitic?

I have no idea.

I worship a Jew- Yeshua Netsari.

I believe the infallible NT was written mostly by Jews.
I am the seed of Abraham.
I am a citizen of The Israel of God.
Jerusalem in Heaven is my mother.
The Jewish Messiah is my Brother.
I am begotten of His Father.
I am a covenant son of Israel.
The Spirit that raised His body, the seed of David, lives in my body as I write this,
And leads me as I write this;
And is Eternal Life
And The Truth.

Repent, Albion.

You slander Him in slandering me.

Mt 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Where is all your hate coming from?
1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

May you find Peace,

Dave

[*Albion*]

Dave said:

"It has taken me many years to unlearn much of the garbage I was taught and to learn the truth of the scriptures and The Spirit of Holiness."

No wonder most Jewish people want NOTHING to do with (so-called) "Christianity".

And who can blame them, say I!

If THIS is an example of "The Spirit of Holiness", then I'm the Pope!

Albion

[Stephen Silver]

I don't know if you believe in the rapture, Stephen; but you seem to believe in an eschatology which was popularized in relatively modern times, and seems to discard Apostolic teaching on the subject of eschatology as "primitive" or "antiquated", because, in your words, "
that obviously did not happen. Some words and phrases must be understood in the light of historical fact."

Shlama Akhi David:
The word "rapture" doesn't appear in the New Testament scriptures. I believe in the resurrection of the dead as the scriptures teach. I believe in the bodily return of Yeshua Mashikha as the angels foretold. History will bear this out.

That philosophy is backward. The Bible should not be interpreted by history. History should be interpreted through scripture. The first approach is the secular approach; the second is the Christian approach.But creeping secularism has silently encroached upon the Christian culture and emasculated it.

David, which part of my "philosophy" is backward in my above clarification on my belief about the bodily return of Yeshua Mashikha? At Yeshua's ascension two angels appeared and spoke...

Acts 1:11
"who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven"? "This Yeshua who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw him go into heaven."

I have little hope that you will accept anything in this post. I do hope you get angry, because I know we often need to get damned angry before we change our thinking and action that needs changing. Eventually, I hope you get angry with yourself for buying a bill of goods which keeps you in what can only be described as "utter darkness" compared to the light of eternal truth.I know the difference; I've been on both sides.

Moreover, Akhi David, it is not right for any brother to provoke to anger. Yeshua didn't do this, did he? Yeshua was angry at hard-heartedness of religious leaders and teachers when they forgot an important commandment, namely to love your neighbour as yourself. Yeshua's anger was never sparked by trivial matters.

I may seem mean and miserable to Albion and to you; actually, I am very easy going and as happy as I believe is possible for anyone to be.

Proverbs 27:2
"Let another man praise you and not your own mouth,
A stranger and not your own lips."

I have reconsidered my translation of "Shatyn":
Paul wrote: "If we are madmen, it is for God."

I am in good company, I think, though I may be a madman to you.

Paul wasn't a madman. The Apostle Paul was, as it were, "beside himself/extremely perplexed within himself" and very much aware of his continuing need for the Saviour to guide him step by step along the way, akhi. I think it's better to translate "shatyn" in context to the point Paul was making.

I could only hope you will become as "mad" as I am; Albion too. I think he has a lot of anger in him. And he thinks I'm nasty.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have no intention of following your lead, Akhi David.

Shlama,
Stephen
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Shlama Akhi Stephen,

I apologize for saying how happy I am; that's just wrong; I see that now. How can a humble person say he's as happy as possible? Surely being miserable and knowing it is the sign of true humility. Our Savior said He was meek and humble; He must have been supremely humble, since He is the embodiment of absolute and perfect virtue, hence, he must have been supremely miserable and wretched, and would never presume to rejoice or claim to be supremely happy, for that would be a sign of pride. We are to allow others to tell us how happy we are, for others surely know better than than we do, what is in our hearts and minds .

Are you interested in learning something, or do you think you know it all and cannot possibly learn anything about this matter of Christ's return? I can show you something very powerful about how to interpret the prophecies, but I will not give it to you if you are not as humble as you say I should be- I whose head is larger than whole states and some small countries. <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s -->


Burkta,

Dave