01-16-2011, 10:18 AM
Thank you for your considerate answer.
Thanks for the list, i will most definately check out at least some of the books. i find it funny that you have the "God delusion" on your list. i read it, and it is completely laughable. A whole book, not a single honest and logically sound argument (it is a personal expression of frustration to me). Before i read that book, i was ready to loose my faith, and become an atheist (God knows that's true), but after reading the comic, i was healed from such thoughts. If i ever become an atheist, i will most definately discern myself from that kind of atheism (which is often nothing but hurt feelings and frustration). If the other books are material like that, i am on much safer ground than i thought. As i said, i will check it out still.
i read your book on aramaic primacy. So i know quite well how much information you require to reach a conclusion. i can tell with absolute certainty that you are much easier persuaded by unsecured positions than me. My knowledge about Bible issues is not the question, but i guarantee you, it is not the problem. i read the bible, i know about all the bloodshed, i can easily reconcile it with my position. Also, if the Bible is true, the Israelites had a whole lot of proof for a supernatural being, beginning at the plagues, the red sea crossing, and many more things. If you don't think it's true, why assume the bloodshed is real, it all becomes irrelevant.
Personal proof, to me, is not feeling good, it is irrefutable, undeniable proof beyond statistic probability. Supernatural events that cannot be denied. Yet, it is personal, because the proof is not transferrable. If i'd tell you what i know or remember, that means nothing to you. If i show you some doctor's confirmations it'd mean nothing to you. If i see dead rising up, or food rain from the sky in the middle of a drought, what does it help the overall debate? But it can help me, especially since those things happen in the moment the true people of God start to pray. Also, there are true foretelling of the future on a large scale, as well as the revealing of the secrets of the heart, meaning God grants otherwise unknowable information to one of his servants in order to reveal himself. Yes, i am a believer, and yes, i asked more than my share of questions. At the end it comes down to this:
Act 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.
Just to give you an example, i will refer you to a "documented miracle", though i know you can doubt and criticise all about it. It is just an example, for every documented supernatural act, there are at least 100 that are not documented, many of which are far more spectacular, many of which are even beyond comprehension and physical possiblity. So don't think this is like one of the greatest things i use as personal proof. It is just something documented. And yes, he does heal amputees.
http://www.leestoneking.com/My%20Miracle.htm
Aside from that, there is, of course, also a mental / psychological side to it all, though it is not proof.. i have, in the past, used some kinds of drugs (not that much though), and i know how it makes you feel. i also enjoyed great sex, and went very far in meditation (i think it is called infinite space in buddhism, though i did not have a buddhist approach), and did all the other things that are supposed to make you feel good. Those things were quite nice. but if i compare it to having a relationship with Jesus (whatever that means to an atheist), it is absolutely nothing in comparison. Only deep in Christ can i have true and perfect harmony, even in the very worst of circumstances. The peace that surpasses understanding and the joy unspeakable are things you cannot gain by drugs, or sex, or meditation. At that point, even when the worst of things happen, you can still retain your peace, and Godly sorrow is a concept unknown to eastern philosohpies (with their avoidance of suffering), though it is very wholesome and healing (and important for mental balance). Eastern philosophies are about feeling nothing (which is better than just living), true christian faith is about feeling everything, and being more than okay with it.
Now, these things are not proof. But, if i was no christian, i would be an agnostic (why become an atheist if you cannot possibly disprove God?). And as such, i would still live as a christian, because it is the most wholesome, hamonic and healthy thing to do. What i am saying, even if Jesus didn't exist, i would live as though he did. Not because i think delusion is awesome, but because that delusion (if it is one) is the best way of life i know. All this i said even without mentionning purpose in life. Also, true atheism is egoism, i wonder how atheists can continuoulsy deny that. Believeing in deity is believeing in a higher purpose, and in a purpose for your fellow human beings. Being an atheist is bleieving that you decide what is of what importance and wheter or not there is purpose in your fellow humans life. They are, then, at your mercy, like at Stalin's or Mao's (both atheists). That is why in the last 100 years there have been more murders in the name of atheism than in the name of any religion in the history of mankind. You better prove there is no God (by your logic).
Finally, i would like to mention that there is reason to accept the Bible (or an equally qualifying document, of which i know none) as an unshakable common ground of belief. As atheist, you will have to argue from nothing to validate your opinions. But, as a Bible believer, you always have a frame of reference, and that can provide unity, and help understand each other (i know it is not like that for most christians, but for the real christians, it is).
Joh 9:24-25 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner [or, did not exist]. He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not [or, whether he existed or not]: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
Personal proof matters.
Thanks for the list, i will most definately check out at least some of the books. i find it funny that you have the "God delusion" on your list. i read it, and it is completely laughable. A whole book, not a single honest and logically sound argument (it is a personal expression of frustration to me). Before i read that book, i was ready to loose my faith, and become an atheist (God knows that's true), but after reading the comic, i was healed from such thoughts. If i ever become an atheist, i will most definately discern myself from that kind of atheism (which is often nothing but hurt feelings and frustration). If the other books are material like that, i am on much safer ground than i thought. As i said, i will check it out still.
i read your book on aramaic primacy. So i know quite well how much information you require to reach a conclusion. i can tell with absolute certainty that you are much easier persuaded by unsecured positions than me. My knowledge about Bible issues is not the question, but i guarantee you, it is not the problem. i read the bible, i know about all the bloodshed, i can easily reconcile it with my position. Also, if the Bible is true, the Israelites had a whole lot of proof for a supernatural being, beginning at the plagues, the red sea crossing, and many more things. If you don't think it's true, why assume the bloodshed is real, it all becomes irrelevant.
Personal proof, to me, is not feeling good, it is irrefutable, undeniable proof beyond statistic probability. Supernatural events that cannot be denied. Yet, it is personal, because the proof is not transferrable. If i'd tell you what i know or remember, that means nothing to you. If i show you some doctor's confirmations it'd mean nothing to you. If i see dead rising up, or food rain from the sky in the middle of a drought, what does it help the overall debate? But it can help me, especially since those things happen in the moment the true people of God start to pray. Also, there are true foretelling of the future on a large scale, as well as the revealing of the secrets of the heart, meaning God grants otherwise unknowable information to one of his servants in order to reveal himself. Yes, i am a believer, and yes, i asked more than my share of questions. At the end it comes down to this:
Act 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.
Just to give you an example, i will refer you to a "documented miracle", though i know you can doubt and criticise all about it. It is just an example, for every documented supernatural act, there are at least 100 that are not documented, many of which are far more spectacular, many of which are even beyond comprehension and physical possiblity. So don't think this is like one of the greatest things i use as personal proof. It is just something documented. And yes, he does heal amputees.
http://www.leestoneking.com/My%20Miracle.htm
Aside from that, there is, of course, also a mental / psychological side to it all, though it is not proof.. i have, in the past, used some kinds of drugs (not that much though), and i know how it makes you feel. i also enjoyed great sex, and went very far in meditation (i think it is called infinite space in buddhism, though i did not have a buddhist approach), and did all the other things that are supposed to make you feel good. Those things were quite nice. but if i compare it to having a relationship with Jesus (whatever that means to an atheist), it is absolutely nothing in comparison. Only deep in Christ can i have true and perfect harmony, even in the very worst of circumstances. The peace that surpasses understanding and the joy unspeakable are things you cannot gain by drugs, or sex, or meditation. At that point, even when the worst of things happen, you can still retain your peace, and Godly sorrow is a concept unknown to eastern philosohpies (with their avoidance of suffering), though it is very wholesome and healing (and important for mental balance). Eastern philosophies are about feeling nothing (which is better than just living), true christian faith is about feeling everything, and being more than okay with it.
Now, these things are not proof. But, if i was no christian, i would be an agnostic (why become an atheist if you cannot possibly disprove God?). And as such, i would still live as a christian, because it is the most wholesome, hamonic and healthy thing to do. What i am saying, even if Jesus didn't exist, i would live as though he did. Not because i think delusion is awesome, but because that delusion (if it is one) is the best way of life i know. All this i said even without mentionning purpose in life. Also, true atheism is egoism, i wonder how atheists can continuoulsy deny that. Believeing in deity is believeing in a higher purpose, and in a purpose for your fellow human beings. Being an atheist is bleieving that you decide what is of what importance and wheter or not there is purpose in your fellow humans life. They are, then, at your mercy, like at Stalin's or Mao's (both atheists). That is why in the last 100 years there have been more murders in the name of atheism than in the name of any religion in the history of mankind. You better prove there is no God (by your logic).
Finally, i would like to mention that there is reason to accept the Bible (or an equally qualifying document, of which i know none) as an unshakable common ground of belief. As atheist, you will have to argue from nothing to validate your opinions. But, as a Bible believer, you always have a frame of reference, and that can provide unity, and help understand each other (i know it is not like that for most christians, but for the real christians, it is).
Joh 9:24-25 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner [or, did not exist]. He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not [or, whether he existed or not]: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
Personal proof matters.
Jesus is the one true God of the Bible.