Matt. 23

[Andrew Gabriel Roth]

Shlama to all my brothers here, Nazarenes and Christians alike.

Oh WOW! I hardly know how to respond to all tumult. I have written privately to my dear brother Albion telling him of my support for him and trying to help. Now I think one more statement here from me is also needed.

Words and terms can hurt when taken out of context, and what one person intends may not come across to another. Let me give one example. I remember after we got Saddam Hussein, our current president said two words in a speech that just flabberghasted me. The first was (paraphrasing) "And now we are ready to help the Iraqi people on their long CRUSADE for freedom and democracy." I was astonished. That's all Arabs and Muslims need to hear from a Western power, that they are ready to launch a CRUSADE, when they still haven't gotten over the first one. The second term Bush said was the "RECONSTRUCTION" of Iraq. Okay sounds innocuous, but to people who know our history RECONSTRUCTION, as in what happened to the South at the end of the Civil War when, as they saw it, the imperialist North occupied their own country from 12 years and bled them dry, was not something for a former adversary of ours to look forward to. As another president of ours once said too, "Where would this great country be without this great land of ours?" HUH?!?!?!?

I think we all need to take a deep breath (myself included) and realize that we are all here united in Peshitta Primacy and we all love the same Messiah and His Father. It is true that from the Netzari viewpoint we look at Torah observance (keep his commandments) as a way to show that love and be his disciple. But it is also true that over the long count of centuries that we have been murdered and persecuted by others who called themselves Christians for trying to do this. That doesn't mean their sin is on anyone here. Rather, it may put our passion in better perspective.

I was very moved though about what Akhan Ryan said about how his questions led him to understand Messiah better, and I agree with him essentially on that process of education, sharing and dialogue, as ALL OF US make steps forward TOGETHER. That's what it is all about. i also know that in the beginning of the faith we made accomodations to NOT make it hard for the Gentiles to join. Those minimum requirements in Acts 15 were not meant as the FINAL place for them, but a BEGINNING, and I would argue today's Christians have the same right to their part in the gradual process, even if we disagree about where they should go ultimately. That is not something for us to judge, but we do have an obligation to point to Scripture to express what we feel the truth to be. My point though all along has been that we do not spare our brothers when we have been strident in our preaching with others, including Christians. We are ALL sinners we are ALL under potential rebuke from the same standard of Law, and that's all I meant to say. I am pretty sure, given his clarifications here, that Dawid intended the same distinction.

Finally, to my brother Albion, please accept my abject apologies for any unintentional offenses that my part in this "Passion play" may have caused. I would like to close with this thought. I remember the first time I gave a speech at a Netzari shul that I was astonished that the MAJORITY there were GENTILES who had left the church. I felt immeidately uncomfortable that the "corrections" I was hired to talk about would be offensive. I thought long and hard on it and almost cancelled the speech but for the prayer leaders' insistence that I should not worry. In the end I told them that to whatever extent they had thought about how to do things better and learn the hebraic roots of their faith, to that extent my criticisms do NOT come upon them. They are on the halachic path from their own point, and that should be respected. Then I remembered a line from Romans where Rav Shaul talked about SOME righteous Gentiles doing the Torah on their own and becoming a Torah unto themselves, and mentioned that too. Otherwise I kept the full passion of my very long lecture intact. At the end of it, I got a ten minute standing ovation and a lot of hugs, tears and thank yous for telling the truth. I have never been so proud to be around any group of folks--Jewish or Gentile--in my life, before or since.

So yes we have differences and express ourselves pasionately. Yes there are core perspectives that we can't compromise on. But within that, we are commanded to love our neighbor, which by Y'shua's defintions include Samaritans, Romans, apostates and outcasts. We love them and try to lift them up. You know I came to the Nazarene faith principally due to the efforts of a Protestant-Baptist I met in college. He, more than anyone else, brought Y'shua in to my heart in 1986. I have never forgotten his wise words to me then: "Andrew, remember. It is always far better to love the heaven into someone, than to scare the hell out of them."

Hope this helps!

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

[gbausc]

Shlama Akhay Andrew & Dawid,

"Andrew, remember. It is always far better to love the heaven into someone, than to scare the hell out of them."

Now those words make more sense than everything else you guys have said here recently on the current topic.

And that is how the Torah is kept. It is kept by Love, writing it into our hearts and minds, which is the Dithaykay Khadatha- Ha Brit Khadath, according to Jeremiah 31:31. There is no boasting, pride, bigotry or contempt in The Love of Alaha and Meshikha, which fulfills the Torah.
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

I detect an effete snobbery and elitism exuding from some of these posts, especially from Dawid's delineations between "the true faith, gospel & Messiah" of Nazarenes and the false faith,gospel and Messiah of "Xians". I don't detect Rukha d'Quudsha in that at all and cannot believe Yeshua's Spirit is in any of such words. Zeal without the Love of Yeshua and Alaha is destructive and more like Saul of Tarsus who hated & slaughtered Christians than Shlikha Paul who was slaughtered as a Christian.

It reminds me of Luke 9:51-56 where the the "Sons of Thunder" needed a lesson from our Lord about His Spirit and mission, when they thought He should destroy the Samaritan towns that did not receive Him:
"54. And when Yaqob and Yohannan his disciples saw it, they were saying
to him, "Our Lord, do you want us to speak and fire will descend from
Heaven, and will consume them as Elijah also did?"
55. And he turned and he rebuked them and he said, "You do not know of which Spirit you are."
56. ???For The Son of Man has not come to destroy lives but to give life.???
And they went to other villages.

Do we really know The Messiah?

Shlama,

Dave

[Dawid]

Shlama Akhay Andrew & Dawid,

"Andrew, remember. It is always far better to love the heaven into someone, than to scare the hell out of them."

Now those words make more sense than everything else you guys have said here recently on the current topic.

Then perhaps I need to explain what I've said more thoroughly. I follow the rational argument, so everything I say should make at least a degree of sense.

And that is how the Torah is kept. It is kept by Love, writing it into our hearts and minds, which is the Dithaykay Khadatha- Ha Brit Khadath, according to Jeremiah 31:31. There is no boasting, pride, bigotry or contempt in The Love of Alaha and Meshikha, which fulfills the Torah.
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

I agree. However, the Torah tells us what it means to love one's neighbor. I have not boasted about what I've done or who I am. I did not intend to boast at all. If I have please show me where it was and I will make amends. I have simply stated that I do not think that our two faiths can be said to be one. Maybe mine is right and yours is wrong. Maybe yours is right and mine is wrong. It's the biggest bet anyone will ever make. It's the world's highest stakes gamble, and everybody's playing. I simply said that we do not have our chips on the same number. If that is arrogance, then I apologize.

I detect an effete snobbery and elitism exuding from some of these posts, especially from Dawid's delineations between "the true faith, gospel & Messiah" of Nazarenes and the false faith,gospel and Messiah of "Xians". I don't detect Rukha d'Quudsha in that at all and cannot believe Yeshua's Spirit is in any of such words. Zeal without the Love of Yeshua and Alaha is destructive and more like Saul of Tarsus who hated & slaughtered Christians than Shlikha Paul who was slaughtered as a Christian.

I never delineated between truth and falsehood. I did not undertake to accuse anyone. I did undertake to point out that our views are different. I did not tout the superiority of my own. It is as much as if a Jew were to tell a Muslim "we follow the same God, but different faiths." That should be fairly obvious. I don't think the Muslim should take offense, or that it is a statement of superiority. It is simply a statement that we are different. I have a friend who follows a kind of new-age Amer-indian religion. Is it reasonable for her to take offense if I point out that we are not serving the same God(s)? I did not intend to sound superior, because I think we're all putting our money where we think best, and that's all we can do.
I am depending on the Scriptures, the "Word of Truth," not your detection, to validate or invalidate my beliefs, chaveri.
Believe me, I love Yeshu'ah and Elohim.

It reminds me of Luke 9:51-56 where the the "Sons of Thunder" needed a lesson from our Lord about His Spirit and mission, when they thought He should destroy the Samaritan towns that did not receive Him:
"54. And when Yaqob and Yohannan his disciples saw it, they were saying
to him, "Our Lord, do you want us to speak and fire will descend from
Heaven, and will consume them as Elijah also did?"
55. And he turned and he rebuked them and he said, "You do not know of which Spirit you are."
56. ???For The Son of Man has not come to destroy lives but to give life.???
And they went to other villages.

Do we really know The Messiah?

I, too, believe that HaMashiakh came to give life. And life more abundant. As it is written, "I have set before you this day life and a blessing, death and a cursing. Therefore choose ye life that you may live, you and your seed."

Shalom uvrachoth,
Dawid

[Dawid]

One more thing: please stop the nonsense accusations about elitism. I am probably one of the two true non-elitists on the website. I am one of the two universalists here. I believe, along with much of Judaism, that Hell is not eternal, and that after a period of punishment, all are permitted into 'Olam HaBa. The rest of you (with the exception of Mr. Bauscher) are elitists. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. You all believe that pagans won't get into "Heaven." That is no less elitist than my belief that we are following different Messiahs.

[*Albion*]

Dawid said:

"You all believe that pagans won't get into "Heaven." That is no less elitist than my belief that we are following different Messiahs."

Funny, hilarious really.

I think that the people who will populate The World To Come, will not necessarily be Messianic's, nor Nazarene's, nor from the Assyrian COE, nor Christians, I think that there will be people that will be there who NEVER heard the Name of Yeshua, nor of YHWH (or Maryah), etc.

I remember one minister's sermon, long ago......"we'll be scratchin' our heads, and wonderin' "How in the world did YOU get up here!"

Of course, I don't believe that The World To Come is necessarily "up here", but you get the point.

I've met a lot of Native American people that believe in One all encompassing "Great Spirit" (although each tribe may have a different name for this 'Great Spirit'), who am I to say that we will NOT see them in The World To Come??

Yes, I DO believe that "evil" WILL NOT EXIST, in The World To Come.

Evil, and all those who insist on practising it, will be DESTROYED.

There will NOT be any "demonized hackers" in The World To Come, for example.

And those destroyed will only suffer as they are destroyed, and I believe that they will realize that it was their own refusal to give up their practice of evil, that got them to that moment.

There will be NO "Eternal Suffering".

How dare you presume that I have ANY idea of those that MarYah will Save, or destroy.

Like you, I'm made of dust. I don't presume to know YHWH's will about anyone's eternal destiny.

Albion

[Dawid]

Khaveri Albion,
I have tried every way I know how to make peace with you. I have apologized, reasoned, and done everything I know of short of getting on my knees. I don't know what you want from me. You have found fault with everything I say. If there is any way for me to make peace with you, please tell me. I am at a loss.

[gbausc]

Shlama Akh Dawid,

I am glad to learn that you are a universalist also. It will be good to share scripture and ideas with you. I had to laugh, though, after I read your disclaimer

:"please stop the nonsense accusations about elitism. I am probably one of the two true non-elitists on the website. I am one of the two universalists here."

I am sure you do not see how elitist that statement sounds: "I am one of the two true non elitists..."

That makes us part of a very elite group, n'est ce pas?
I hope you don't take yourself so seriously that you cannot laugh at yourself. I mean no disrespect. I know you are quite a gifted young man, but with time you will see
that the Spirit of Yeshua is so large of heart that no categories or classifications of people or groups, or faiths, or religions have any meaning to Him. He is not interested in our religion. He is interested in relationship and personal knowledge through personal contact with Him and others. All are members of His body, which is the church (edta) , the fulness of Him Who fills all in all."
Ephesians 1
16. I do not cease to give thanks for you and to remember you in my
prayers,
17. So that The God of Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, The Father of glory,
would give you The Spirit of wisdom and revelation with his
knowledge,
18. And that the eyes of your hearts would be enlightened, that you will
know what is the hope of his calling and what is the wealth of the glory
of his inheritance in The Holy Ones,
19. And what is the excellence of the greatness of his power in us, by those
things which we believe, according to the action of the immensity of his
power,
20. Which he performed in The Messiah and raised him from among the
dead and set him at his right hand in Heaven,
21. Higher than all Principalities, Rulers, Powers, and Dominions, and
higher than every name that is named, not only in this universe, but
also in the one that is coming.
22. And he has put everything into subjection under his feet, and he has
given him who is higher than all as The Head of the church,
23. Which is his body and the fullness of him who fills all in all. (my Plain English translation of The Peshitta)

That is a large body, that assembly! We are all His children- one great family.
So we should treat one another and make that our creed and credo.
He will never condemn us if we do, of that I am sure.
He who loves his neighbor as himself has fulfilled all the Law and the Prophets.

"We love Him, because he first loved us and gave His Son as an atonement for our sins." -1 John 4:10
1 John 314. We know that we have departed from death into life by this: Because
we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother remains in death.
15. For everyone who hates his brother murders a person, and you know
that eternal life cannot abide in anyone who murders a person*.
16. By this we know his love toward us, for he gave his Life in our place,
and it is right for us that we would give our lives for the sake of our
brothers.
1 John 4
13. In this we know that we abide in him and he abides in us, because he
has given us of his Spirit.
14. And we see and do testify that The Father hath sent his Son, The
Savior for the world.
15. And everyone who confesses Yeshua, that he is The Son of God, God
dwells in him and he dwells in God.
16. And we believe and we know the love that God has for us, for God is
love, and everyone who dwells in love dwells in God.
17. By this, love is fulfilled with us, that we may have boldness in the day
of judgment, because as he is, so also are we, in this world.
18. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is
by suspicion, but he who fears is not grown up in love.
19. Therefore we shall love God because he first loved us. (my translation)

Khuva,Taybutha,Shawtaphutha b'Rukha d'qoodsha (Love, Grace, Communion in The Spirit of Holiness),

Dave

[Dawid]

lol. Yes, Chaveri. That was part of my point. Making an elitist statement about how I was not elitist. I was trying to make light of myself and all of us, really. No, I can laugh at myself when I say something ridiculous. It happens pretty often, afterall.

I disagree. He is interested in our religion. Simply defined, religion is "a set of beliefs and/or practices." I think he is interested in what we believe and do. Relationship is about more than just feelings and knowledge. It is also about proper roles within the relationship. The Rabbi said that the entire Torah hangs on two commandments. This shows us that the entire Torah merely tells us how to love God and how to love our neighbor as ourselves.
He who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Torah and Nevi'im, because that is what it means to love one's neighbor.
If we love him, we will keep his commandments.
You also did not quote this from I John, if anyone says he knows Him, but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Shalom,
Dawid

[gbausc]

Shlama Akhi Dawid,

You wrote:

"the entire Torah merely tells us how to love God and how to love our neighbor as ourselves."

The Torah of Moshe tells nothing about how to love God or our neighbor. It simply demands that we do it. Love is more than keeping commandments.
Love should be the motive behind the keeping, or there is only the violation of the Law. On the other hand, if the Love of God is in a person, he needs no commandments.
He will fulfill the Law without ever needing to read it or hear it. Love is a Spirit. God is Love.

On the other hand, Shaul of Tarsus was blameless concerning the righteousness which is in the Law:
Philippians 3
3. For we are the circumcision, those who serve God in The Spirit, and we
glory in Yeshua The Messiah, and we do not trust upon the flesh,
4. As I did have trust in the flesh, for if a man has hoped in his trust in
the flesh, I have more than he:
5. Circumcised on the eighth day, of the family of Israel, from the tribe of
Benjamin, a Hebrew, son of a Hebrew, in the Law, a Pharisee;
6. In zeal, a persecutor of the church, in righteousness of The Written
Law I was without indictment.
7. But these things that were advantages to me, I have accounted losses
for the sake of The Messiah. (The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English
The Holy Epistle of Paul The Apostle to The Philippians -Page 408)


Yet he was persecuting The Messiah. Righteousness is not keeping the written Law. ("Shaul, Shaul, why do you persecute me?")
Shaul said he was blameless according to the Law, yet he was filled with hate and murder against The Very Lord Yah Himself!

God looks upon the heart to see why we do what we do. The Judeans stumbled at that stumbling stone:
Romans 10
1. My brethren, the desire of my heart and my petition before God is on
their behalf that they would have life.
2. For I bear witness to them, that they do have zeal for God, but not by
knowledge.
3. For they have not known the righteousness of God, but they have
sought to establish their own righteousness*, and therefore they have
not submitted to the righteousness of God.
* The Critical Greek text omits the second ???righteousness???; The Majority Greek includes it.
4. For The Messiah is the consummation of The Written Law for
righteousness to everyone who believes. (my translation of Peshitta)
Philippians 3 again:
8. I also consider all these things a loss for the majesty of the knowledge of
Yeshua The Messiah, my Lord, him for whose sake I have lost
everything, and I consider it all as a dung heap, that I may gain The
Messiah,
9. And be found in him, while I do not have my own righteousness, which
is from The Written Law, but that which is from the faith of The
Messiah, which is the righteousness that is from God,
10. That by it I may know Yeshua and the power of his resurrection, and
that I may share in his sufferings and be conformed with his death,
11. That perhaps I may be able to come to the resurrection from the place
of the dead.

Do you really think God cares about your righteousness, Dawid?
Is that what you want, when considering that He wants you to have His righteousness?
Religion is all about our own righteousness and salvation.
The faith of Yeshua is all about losing ourselves and our life and receiving His Life and Righteousness in their place.

His righteousness is perfect.
4. But whoever commits sin commits evil, for sin is entirely evil.
5. And you know that he was revealed to take away our sins and there is
no sin in him.
6. No one who remains in him commits sin, and no one who sins has seen
him, neither has he known him.
7. Children, let no one deceive you; he who does righteousness is righteous
even as The Messiah* also is righteous.
8. He who commits sin is from Satan*, because Satan* is a sinner from
the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this reason: To destroy the
works of Satan*.
9. No one who is begotten from God commits sin, because his seed is in
him and he is not able to sin because he has been begotten from God.
10. By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of
Satan: No one who does not do righteousness, neither loves his brother, is
from God. - (1 John 3- my translation)
I must take issue with your religion statement. God is not interested in "a set of beliefs and practices". He is interested in your entire being, all your beliefs (conscious and unconscious), all your thoughts and all your actions (deliberate and reflexive). That is not "religion"; that is your heart, spirit, mind, soul, body and life. Religion, as I see it, is man's thing. Eternal Life is entirely God's thing and is a gift given according to His will and purpose which produces the fruit of righteousness, faith, love, peace, obedience, knowledge and joy. Religion probably is about as important to Him as what kind of toilet paper you use, on a relative scale of importance.

Dave

[Dawid]

But every mitswa tells us how to do one or the other. Name any mitswa that I cannot ascribe either to "love God" or "love your neighbor as yourself." These are the two foundational mitswoth, and the rest are merely midrashim on them.

You carefully translated this "the written law." I would contend that he refers to Torah SheBa'al Peh. As you yourself have pointed out, he claims to have been fully observant, and yet he violated the mitswoth by murdering the Talmidim HaDerech. One cannot fulfill the Torah and be filled with hate, because it is written, do not bear a grudge, and according to R. Yeshu'ah's Drash on "thou shalt not murder" to even hate causes one to be guilty of murder according to proper halacha.

Yet, also in Romans 10, "For Moses describeth the righteousness, which is by the law, thus: Whoever shall do these things, shall live by them. But the righteousness which is by faith, saith thus: Thou shalt not say in thy heart, Who ascendeth to heaven, and bringeth Messiah down? Or, Who descendeth to the abyss of the grave, and bringeth up Messiah from the place of the dead? But what saith it ? The thing is near to thy mouth, and to thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we proclaim." Rom. 10:5-8 (Murdock)
Thus we see that the righteousness of the Torah is the righteousness of faith, since Moshe wrote these words of the Torah in Deut. 30. Sha'ul clearly shows that the two are one and the same.
We know that Sha'ul was a P'rushi. And we know, from R. Yeshu'ah, that the P'rushim violate(d) the Torah SheBa'al K'tiv by their traditions. Is this not what the Rabbi told us?
When a young man came to the Rabbi and asked what he must do to be saved, what did the Rabbi reply? He told him of works and of faith. What did Ya'akov HaTsaddiq tell us? "Can faith vivify him?" (Murdock) We know that faith alone, without works of the Torah, is dead.

God asks that we be righteous in Yeshu'ah. He is our righteousness. And so we must follow in His footsteps, doing the Torah as he did himself.
The Nevi'im have told us what YHWH requires of us: to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God. This is what He requires: justice, which you know is also translated righteousness.
I know, it is also written that our righteousness is as filthy rags. That is why we must trust in Yeshu'ah, that is why we must not only walk out the letter of the Torah, but we must walk in the spirit of the Torah, which is to love God and love our neighbor. Righteousness without love is unrighteousness. Righteousness without faith is unrighteousness. But likewise faith without righteousness is merely faithlessness.

And yet, isn't true that it is written that we should "believe"? So God is not interested in our beliefs? Is it not written that those who do it will live in it, so is He not interested in our practices? I do not disagree with you. He is interested in so much more. But it would be an error to say that he is not at all interested in our religion, in the most literal sense of the word.

Chaveri, I had to decide a couple of years ago if I would read the Scriptures like a Jew, or like a Xian. I came to the conclusion that the only way that made sense was to read them like a Jew. I assume the Torah is the basis. The Nevi'im and K'tuvim are commentaries on it. Because he lines up with these, I believe that R. Yeshu'ah was, and is, Mashiakh. A Xian, whether he admits it or not, assumes that Yeshua/Je*us is the Messiah/Chr*st, and then agrees with the TN"K so long as it agrees with his understanding of the Messiah. When it does not, he reinterprets it.
Since I read it this way, I believe that the Torah must be observed. I believe, first and foremost, in the Torah, and what is written in it. Then I believe that R. Yeshu'ah is the master interpreter, the living Torah, the Rabbi, the Mashiakh. To try to convince me that Sha'ul, or Yeshu'ah, were opposed to observance, or taught that it is unnecessary, is merely to try to convince me that Sha'ul and Yeshu'ah were not men of God.

Shabbath shalom,
Dawid

[Paul Younan]

Akhi Dawid,

I will ask you to refer to someone by their real name, and not a moniker. If you intend to refer to Christianity in your postings, then do so as such and not as "Xian" or any other form that people who belong to that grouping do not recognize or accept, or that is offensive to them.

This is no different than the Church of the East being labeled "Nestorian" by its adversaries over the years.

Thank you for your understanding.

+Shamasha Paul

[Andrew Gabriel Roth]

Shlama my Brothers,

To Akhi Albion, I have also apologized to you and not heard back yet, so let me do so again. I also humbly ask that you forgive. All of us I think could use a nice resolution to this mess and move on. ALl points have been made on all sides, so there is nothing else to do.

To Akhi Dawid, I know what you mean exactly, but apparently no amount of explanation is going to get this across. I would also in deep humility ask you, regardless of how you meant the term to be taken, to simply write "Christian" for these folks there. Offense may not lie within you, but we Netzarim must be beyond reproach, and teachers are held to a higher standard. Therefore, it is enough that Albion and some others now have expressed offense at what is a NON-CORE issue.

This in no way detracts from my feeling on Sacred Names and Hebrew titles for Father and Son whcih is core to me. Rather, in plain basic discourse we should try to accomodate folks in general language. As Y'shua said, "Agree with your adversary quickly or else he may hand you over to the judge who may throw you into prison. I tell you the truth: You will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

[gbausc]

Shlama Akhi Dawid,


I think you have defined the essential difference between your approach to God, and mine.

I believe, first and foremost, in the Torah, and what is written in it. Then I believe that R. Yeshu'ah is the master interpreter, the living Torah, the Rabbi, the Mashiakh.

For you, it is The Torah first; The Messiah second.

Yes, the Christian approach is The Messiah first, then the Law and Prophets. We interpret everything through Him. The New Covenant explains the Old. The Messiah
is all and in all.
You seem to think the Brit Ha Khadath is merely a rehashing of the Torah, with some added commandments.

I think you are in deep darkness, my brother. I don't know how anyone who has met The Master Yeshua could ever put His Law above its Author,
seeing that He is YHWH Himself, and is the consummation of The Law, in the flesh and in His Spirit. He has come to give us Himself and to dwell in us, Who is the Righteousness of God, the Wisdom, The Power and The Life of God. He interprets and fulfills all that is written by His Spirit.

You worship The Torah, it seems. The Torah forbids that. "You shall worship The LORD thy God, and Him only you shall serve."

You say Yeshua is The Rabbi. Do you belive He is YHWH in the flesh? You do not seem to confess Him as such.

I say He is The LORD YAHWEH YESHUA MESSIAH GOD ALMIGHTY, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD, THE TRUTH, THE WAY, THE LIFE, THE POWER, GLORY AND RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD; IN WHOM ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD DWELLS BODILY,THE VERY CREATOR OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, WHO UPHOLDS ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER, WHOSE NAME IS HIGHER THAN EVERY NAME, THE "I AM THAT I AM" OF EXODUS 3:14, THE YHWH OF SINAI, THE PARTER OF THE RED SEA, THE WORD OF GOD AND THE GOD OF THE WORD. HE IS OUR HOPE, OUR LORD, OUR KING, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (our only Righteousness), OUR STRENGTH, OUR REDEEMER, OUR SANCTIFICATION, OUR GLORY, OUR HEAVEN, JOY AND CROWN. HE IS OUR EVERYTHING- KINGS OF KINGS AND LORD OF POWER, and He died on a cross for you and me, to save us from our sins and set us free from sin and death.

Galatians 2
19. For I by The Written Law have died to The Written Law that I might
live unto God.
20. And I have been crucified with The Messiah, and from then on I myself
have not been living, but The Messiah is living in me, and this that I
now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of The Son of God, he who has
loved us* and has given himself for us*.
21. I do not reject the grace of God, for if righteousness is by The Written
Law, The Messiah died for nothing.
Chapter 3
1. Oh stupid Galatians! Who has rivaled you? For behold, The Fashioner
was portrayed before your eyes, Yeshua The Messiah, when he was
crucified.
2. This only I wish to know of you: Did you receive The Spirit by the
works of The Written Law or by the hearing of faith?
3. Are you so foolish that you began in The Spirit and now you finish in
the flesh?
4. Have you endured all these things for nothing? But oh, that it were for
nothing!
5. Is he, therefore, who gives The Spirit among you, and does miracles
among you, of the works of The Written Law, or of the hearing of
faith?
6. Just as Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for
righteousness,
7. Know therefore that those who are of faith are the children of
Abraham.8. For because God knew beforehand that the nations are made right by
faith, he preached The Good News to Abraham beforehand, as The
Holy Scriptures say: ???In you shall all the nations be blessed."
9. So then, believers are blessed with the believer Abraham.
10. For those who are of the works of The Written Law are under a curse,
for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who shall not do all that is written
in this Law."
11. But that a man is not made right with God by The Written Law, this is
revealed, because it is written: "The just shall live by faith."
12. But The Written Law was not from faith, but, "Whoever shall do those
things that are written in it shall live in them."
13. But The Messiah has redeemed us from the curse of The Written Law,
and he became a curse in our place, for it is written: "Cursed is
everyone who is hanged on a tree???,
14. That the blessing of Abraham would be with the nations by Yeshua The
Messiah, and we would receive The Promise of The Spirit by faith.
15. My brethren, I speak as among men, that a man does not reject or
change anything in a man???s covenant which has been confirmed.
16. But The Promise was promised to Abraham and to his seed, and he did
not say to him, "To your seeds", as to many, but, "To your seed", as of
one, who is The Messiah.
17. But I say this: The Covenant which was confirmed from the first by
God in The Messiah, The Written Law which was 430 years afterward,
cannot cast off and cancel The Promise.
18. But if the inheritance is by The Written Law, it would therefore not be
from The Promise to Abraham, but God gave it to him by The Promise.
19. Why therefore is there The Written Law? It was added because of
apostasy until The Seed would come to whom The Promise belonged,
and The Written Law was given by Angels in the hand of a mediator.
20. A mediator is not of one, but God is One.
21. Is therefore The Written Law contrary to The Promise of God? God
forbid! For if a law had been given which was able to give life, truly
righteousness would have been by The Written Law.
22. But the Scripture has shut all things up under sin, that The Promise by
the faith of Yeshua The Messiah would be given to those who are
believers.
23. But until the faith would come, The Written Law had kept us while we
were closed off to the faith that was going to be revealed.
24. The Written Law was therefore a guide for us to The Messiah that we
would be made right by faith.
25. But when the faith came we were not under a guide.
26. For you are all children of God by the faith of Yeshua The Messiah.
27. For those who have been baptized into The Messiah have put on The
Messiah.
28. There is neither Jew nor Aramaean*, neither Servant nor Free person,
neither male nor female, for all of you are one in Yeshua The Messiah.
29. And if you are of The Messiah, you are therefore the seed of Abraham
and heirs by The Promise.
Galatians 5

1. Stand therefore in that liberty with which The Messiah has set us free,
and do not be yoked again in a yoke of bondage.
2. Behold, I Paul say to you that if you will be circumcised, The Messiah
profits you nothing.3. But I testify again to every person who is circumcised, that he is
obligated to observe all of The Written Law.
4. You have been destroyed from The Messiah, those of you who are
justified by that in The Written Law, and you have fallen from grace.
5. For we wait for the hope of righteousness by The Spirit who is of the
faith.
6. For in The Messiah Yeshua, circumcision is not anything, neither is
uncircumcision, only faith that is perfected* in love. -my translation

Dawid, the Old Covenant is past. Hebrews chapters 8-10 also confirms this. The New Covenant has come. The Law is the Old Covenant. The gift of God's righteousness in The Son of God by His death and resurrection, and the forgiveness of sins which were under the Old Covenant Law- that is the New Covenant, whereby He takes out the old stony heart and puts a new heart within us, and a new spirit, and His Spirit, and a new mind, in which The Law and ordinances are written and in our hearts
by The Spirit of God,and causes us to walk in His laws and ordinances, to do them. Ezekiel 36:26,27 & Jer. 31:31-34

Do you need to work to make your heart beat? Do you need to train yourself to learn to breathe? So the new heart He gives by His faith beats with the blood of life eternal, his righteousness becomes part of our nature, because we are born of God. We think divine thoughts and will the divine will, because "we have the Mind of the Messiah". -1 Cor 2:16
He needs no teaching to know the Law of righteousness. Neither do we, when He lives in us. And we keep it, by nature. This is called "The Perfect Law of Liberty" by Yaqob.

Have you experienced this new birth from Yeshua?

Dave

[Dawid]

Chaver Dave,
Let me explain why I chose this approach: this is the approach the Talmidim must have taken. This is the approach that Sha'ul praised the Bereans for. We are not Muslims. Each new revelation does not overrule the first. Rather, every new revelation must be tested on some basis. That basis is the Torah. If a prophet leads Israel away from the Torah, the Torah tells us he is a false prophet. If we do not have a firm basis from the beginning, then we can never know what is true and what is false. This foundation must be the oldest revelation that we have, otherwise it could not be foundational, a building in the fourth dimension, with it's foundation in antiquity.

How do we recognize the Messiah? By the Torah and Nevi'im. Otherwise, what is to keep Menachem Schneerson from being Mashiakh? We must have a foundation. If we merely assume that someone is the Messiah and go from there, it is invalid. We must know that he is Messiah because of the prior revelations. Thus we must assume them, and accept him by deduction.

I believe that the Messiah is Torah incarnate. He is the ultimate interpreter. I interpret the Torah through the Midrashim of the Mashiakh. I obey it through his halacha. But that does not mean that he is primary and the Torah secondary. In order to even know that he is Mashiakh we must go the other way 'round.

I do not worship the Torah. I simply assume that it is the basic, original revelation.
I believe he is Hochmah in the flesh. The second Sephriah. So, in a manner of speaking, yes, I believe he is YHWH. But I only believe is he such because he fulfills the prophecies. If he did not meet the requirements of the Torah and the Nevi'im he would be another Bar-Koseba, another Menachem Schneerson, etc.

I could deal with your quotation of Galatians, but it is easier for me to simply point you to Akhi Andrew's commentary on that book.

If the "Old Covenant" is passed, why does Hebrews say that the old "is passing away"? If the new has come, why are we still teaching each man his brother, saying, "Know God"? The new covenant does not replace the Torah. You know that as well as I do. Yirmiyahu HaNavi tells us that the new covenant will be God's Torah written on our hearts. The new covenant is still the Torah.

The Torah tells us over and over "This is a statute forever." I do not think God could be more clear. The commandments are to eternity's reward. They can never pass away. If Yeshu'ah had contravened even one commandment, the smallest commandment, he could not have been the Mashiakh. We must have a standard, khaveri. And the Torah is the reflection of the very nature and wisdom of God. It is, I believe, His autobiography. He is not telling us merely what we should do, but He is telling us Who He Is, and what He does.

Yes, I have experienced new birth.

Shavua Tov,
Dawid

[gbausc]

Shlama Akhi Dawid,

So, in a manner of speaking, yes, I believe he is YHWH.

That is rather weak and vague. To what "manner of speaking" do you refer?
"The Torah incarnate" is also a far cry from YHWH The Law Giver. Yeshua is YHWH. There is no manner of speaking about it..
You also wrote:

We must have a foundation.

1Co 3:11 ?? For any other foundation can no man lay, different from that which is laid, which is Yeshua The Messiah.

Yeshua is not merely a revelation; He is The Revelator and The Wisdom of God, The Truth, the Knowledge and The Light of God's Mind and Person.

Galatians 2
14. And when I saw that they were not walking uprightly in the truth of
The Gospel, I said to Kaypha* in the sight of all of them, "If you who
are a Jew are living like a Syrian* and you are not living as a Jew,
why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?
15. For we who are by nature Judeans and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16. Because we know that a man is not justified by works of The Written
Law, but by the faith of Yeshua The Messiah, we also believe in Yeshua
The Messiah, that we should be made right by the faith of The Messiah,
and not by the works of The Written Law, because no one is made right
by the works of The Written Law.
(Above, Paul remonstrates with Peter for compromising the message of the gospel by
"not living as a Jew and yet compelling Gentiles to live as Jews." Peter knew better than this. The reason he did
not live as a Jew was because he lived by faith in Yeshua and knew that "no one is made right
by the works of The Written Law." Peter was wrong to succumb to the Judaizers by compelling Gentiles to keep the Law
of Moses.)
Galatians 3
8. For because God knew beforehand that the nations are made right by
faith, he preached The Good News to Abraham beforehand, as The
Holy Scriptures say: ???In you shall all the nations be blessed."
9. So then, believers are blessed with the believer Abraham.
10. For those who are of the works of The Written Law are under a curse,
for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who shall not do all that is written
in this Law."Galatians 3:8-10

Those who are of the works of the Law are under a curse; those who believe through The Good News (Gospel) are blessed
with Abraham, who believed God's Gospel hundreds of years before the Law was revealed.

Dawid, in oder to keep the Law, you must offer sacrifices for sin, maintain the Levitical priesthood, a High Priest, a temple, slit the throats of lambs, pour the blood
on the Mercy Seat. Are you doing this? Of course not, therefore you are violating the Law of Moses.

Hebrews 7-10
11. If perfection therefore is by Priesthood of Levi, (for by it The Written
Law was established to the people), why was another Priest needed to
arise in the image of Melchizedek? But does it say that he would be in
the image of Aaron?
12. But just as there was a change in The Priesthood, in this way there was
also a change in The Law. (Note the "change in the Law")
13. For he about whom these things were said was born from another
tribe, from which a man never ministered at the altar.
14. For it is revealed that Our Lord arose from Judah, about which tribe
Moses never said anything concerning Priesthood.
15. And moreover, again, it is apparent by this that he said that another
Priest arises in the image of Melchizedek,
16. He who was not by the law of carnal commandments, but by the
power of an indestructible life.
17. For he testified about him, "You are The Priest for eternity in the
image of Melchizedek."
18. But there was a change in the first testament because of its impotence,
and there was no benefit in it. (Note the change in the first covenant.)
19. For The Written Law perfects nothing, but hope, which is greater than
it, entered in its place, by which we approach God.
20. And he confirmed it to us by an oath.
21. For they were Priests without an oath, but this one, with an oath, as he
said to him by David: ???THE LORD JEHOVAH has sworn and will not
lie, that you are The Priest for eternity in the image of Melchizedek.???
22. This Covenant, of which Yeshua is The Guarantor, is entirely better.
(Note that this covenant of which Yeshua is The Guarantor, is present and better.")
23. And there were many Priests because they were dying and were not
permitted to continue.
24. But This One???s Priesthood, because he is Eternal, does not pass away.
25. And he can give life for eternity to those who come near to God by
him, for he lives always and offers prayers for our sakes.
26. For because this Priest also was right for us: pure, without malice and
without defilement, who is separate from sin and exalted higher than
Heaven,
27. And he has no compulsion every day as The Chief Priests to offer
sacrifice, first for his sins and then for the people, for This One did it
one time by his Life which he offered.
28. For The Law establishes weak men as Priests, but the word of the oath
which was after The Law, The Son, who is perfect for eternity.
Chapter 8
1. But The Summit of all these things that we have: The High Priest who
sits at the right hand of the throne of The Majesty in Heaven.
2. And he is the Minister of The Holy Place and The True Tabernacle,
which God set up, and not man.
3. For every High Priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices, and
because of this it was right also for This One to have something to offer.
4. And if he were on Earth, he would not be a Priest, because there have
been Priests who have been offering gifts according to what is in The
Law,
5. Those who serve the form and the shadow of these things that are in
Heaven, as it was said to Moses when he made The Tabernacle, "See
and do everything by the image that appeared to you on the
mountain."
6. Now Yeshua The Messiah* has received the Ministry which is better
than that, as The Covenant

of which he is made The Mediator

is better,
and it is given with better promises than that.
7. For if the first one had been without fault, then there would have been
no place for this second one. (The first "had been"; the second is "this second one."
8. For he found fault with them, and he said, "Behold, the days are
coming, says THE LORD JEHOVAH, and I will perfect a New
Covenant for the family* of the house of Israel and for the family* of
the house of Judah."
* (of the house) tybd (the family) atyb- ???Baytha d???bayth??? occurs twice, and is an Aramaic idiom here- definitely
original and not from Greek.The Greek has simply, ???the house of Israel; the house of Judah???.
9. "Not like that Covenant that I gave* to their fathers in the day when I
took their hands and brought them from the land of Egypt, because
The Original Aramaic ew Testament in Plain English
The Holy Epistle of Paul The Apostle to The Hebrews ayrbe twld axyls owlwpd atsydq atrga
Page 466
they did not continue in my Covenant; I also rejected them, says THE
LORD JEHOVAH."
10. ???But this is The Covenant that I shall give to the family of the house of
Israel: After those days, says THE LORD JEHOVAH, I shall put my
law in their minds and upon their hearts I shall write it, and I shall be
to them a God, and they shall be to me a people."
11. ???And a man will not teach a citizen of his city, neither his brother, and
say, ???Know THE LORD JEHOVAH???, because they shall all know me,
from their little ones and unto their Elders.??? (It does not say "all know me", but "all shall know me.")
12. "And I shall purge* them of their evils, and I shall not remember their
sins again."
13. In that he said, "New???, he has made the first old, and that which is
outdated and old is near destruction.
(This was written before the temple was destroyed, when the destruction would be complete. No Levitical priesthood and sacrifice remains. He also says the first "is outdated".)
Chapter 9
1. But in the first there was an order of ministry and a worldly
sanctuary. ("There was"-past tense)
2. For the first Tabernacle that was made there had the Manorah and
the table of showbread, and it was called The Holy Place.
3. But the inner* Tabernacle from within the second veil was called The
Holy of Holies.
4. And there was in it the golden place of incense and The Ark of the
Covenant, all overlaid with gold, and it had a pot of gold in which was
manna and the Rod of Aaron which budded, and The Tablets of The
Covenant.
5. And above, the cherubim of glory, which shrouded over the mercy seat;
but there is no time for us to speak about each one of these things
which were thus fashioned.
6. But The Priests were always entering the outer* Tabernacle and
performing their ministry,
7. But The High Priest would enter the inner * Tabernacle once a year by
himself with blood, which he was offering in the place of his soul and in
the place of the evildoing * of the people.
8. But by this The Spirit of Holiness had taught that the way of holiness
had not yet been revealed, as long as the first Tabernacle was standing.
9. And this was a symbol for that time in which gifts and sacrifices were
offered, which were not able to perfect the conscience of him who offers
them,
10. Except in food and drink only, and in various washings, which are
ordinances of the flesh that are established until the time of
reformation.
11. But The Messiah who has come has become The High Priest of the good
things that he did*, and he entered The Great and Perfect Tabernacle
which is not made with hands, and was not from these created things.
12. And he did not enter with blood of yearling goats and of calves, but
with his own blood he entered the holy place one time and has achieved
eternal redemption.
13. For if the blood of kids and of calves and the ashes of a heifer were
sprinkled on those who were defiled and it sanctified them for the
purifying of their flesh,
14. How much more therefore, will the blood of The Messiah, who by The
Eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our
conscience from dead works that we may serve THE LIVING GOD?
15. Because of this, he is The Mediator of The New Covenant, for in his
death he is salvation to those who violated The First Covenant, that
we, those who were called to eternal inheritance, would receive The
Promise.
16. For where there is a testament, it shows the death of him who made it; (The New Covenant is effective by His death.)
17. But it is only valid concerning one who has died, because as long as he
who made it lives, there is no use for it.
18. Because of this, not even the first was established without blood.
19. For when the entire ordinance which was in The Law had been
commanded by Moses to the people, Moses took the blood of a heifer
and water with scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled upon the
scrolls and upon all the people.
20. And he said to them, "This is the blood of The Covenant which was
commanded you by God."
21. Also he sprinkled blood upon the Tabernacle and upon all the vessels of
the ministry,
22. Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and
without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23. For it is necessary that these things which are symbols of the Heavenly
are purified by these things, but the Heavenly by better sacrifices than
these.
24. For it was not The Holy Place made by hands that The Messiah
entered, and which was the symbol of the real one, but he entered
Heaven to appear before the face of God in our place;
25. And not that he should offer himself many times, as The High Priest
was doing and entered The Holy Place every year with blood that was
not his;
26. Otherwise, he ought to have suffered many times from the beginning of
the world, but now in the end of the world, he has offered himself one
time to destroy sin by his sacrifice.
27. And just as it is appointed to the children of men to die once, and after
their deaths the judgment,
28. In this way also, The Messiah was offered one time and he slaughtered
in his Person the sins of the many, but the second time he appears
without our sins, for the life of those who expect him.
Chapter 10
1. For The Written Law had a shadow in it of good things that were
coming. It was not the essence of those matters; because of this, while
they were offering those sacrifices every year, they could never perfect
those who offered them.
2. For if they had perfected them , doubtless, they would have ceased
from their offerings, because their conscience would not have been
buffeted by sin once they had themselves been purged;
3. But by those sacrifices they remember their sins every year,
4. For the blood of oxen and of yearling goats cannot purge sins.
5. Because of this, when he entered the universe, he said, "Sacrifices and
offerings you did not want, but you have clothed me with a body *???,
6. ???And burnt peace-offerings for sins you have not demanded.
7. And I said, ???Behold, I come???, because in the beginning* of The Writings*
it is written of me, ???to do your will, oh God.??????
8. Above, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings and burnt peace offerings for
sins you did not want"; those that were offered were by The Written
Law.
9. And afterward he said, "Behold, I have come to do your will, oh God."
In this he abolishes the first to establish the second. (Murdock has:"he abolished the former."Lamsa has "he put an end to the former...")
10. For in this, his will, we are made holy in the offering of the body of
Yeshua The Messiah, once.
11. For every High Priest who has stood and served those with those
sacrifices every day was offering those things which were never able to
purge sins.
12. But This One offered one sacrifice for the sake of sins, and he sat down
at the right side of God for eternity.
13. And he waits from then on until his enemies are put as a footstool
under his feet,
14. For by one offering he has perfected those who are sanctified by him
for eternity.
15. But The Spirit of Holiness also testifies to us, who says:
16. "This is the covenant that I shall give them after those days, says THE
LORD JEHOVAH: I shall put my law into their minds, and I shall
write it upon their hearts,
17. And their evils and their sins I shall not remember.???
18. But where there is forgiveness of sins, no offering for sins is needed.
19. Therefore brethren, we have boldness in the entrance of the holy place
by the blood of Yeshua.
20. And the way of The Life who made us new is now within the veil
which is his flesh. (We are made new.)
21. And we have The High Priest over the house of God.
22. Let us approach therefore with a true heart and the confidence of
faith, while our hearts are sprinkled and purified from a wicked
conscience and having bathed our bodies in pure water;
23. And let us grasp firmly the confession of our hope and not waver, for
he who has promised us is faithful.

The New Testament is clear about the way of eternal life being a new and living way by the faith of Messiah and the gospel (Good news). The Law is not good news. It is not news at all. By law is the knowledge of sin and no righteousness comes from it, only sin, wrath, death and a curse.-Romans 3:20, Galatians 3, Rom. 4:15
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
Ro 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

If we follow the Law for righteousness, the only fruit of the written Law is sin and death. A person who embraces The Law and exalts it above all else wants to multiply sin, wrath, curses and death. He certainly will not find righteousness and life, though many will be deceived to think they do.
The purpose of the law was to lead us to Messiah. Beyond that, it serves no useful purpose.
Galatians 3
24. The Written Law was therefore a guide for us to The Messiah that we
would be made right by faith.
25. But when the faith came we were not under a guide.
26. For you are all children of God by the faith of Yeshua The Messiah.
27. For those who have been baptized into The Messiah have put on The
Messiah.

Shlama ,

Dave