Matt. 23

[Andrew Gabriel Roth]

Re: Matt. 23
If I wasn't excited about the release of it before I would be now. This will be very interesting. How long is the article?

AGR:

Shlama Akhi Dawid,

I don't know how long it will be in final layout--haven't seen it yet--but I do know the pdf and Word docs top out at 77 pages for Wheel of Stars.


What do you mean by "never"? If it's literally never been done before then it cannot possibly be valid. I'm assuming that you mean it's never been done since it was first lost?

AGR:

I stand corrected. Yes. But it MAY be there are parts of this that YHWH has done all along and that we have not seen until now (the sealed book in Isaiah, and the increase of knowledge foretold by Daniel). But much of it was ancient knowledge that was lost, with their echoes preserved for us to reconstruct later. Again sorry for the generalities, but it's all I have to offer right now.

No need for a sales pitch, khaveri. lol.Sort of related question: What language do you think proto-Semitic was most like?

AGR:

I don't know if this will make sense, but I perceive an even more paleo Hebrew than the paleo Hebrew we know, and this even more ancient version would probably have traces of Canaanite, Phoenician and Akkadian. But in terms of what we see for certain, my answer would be most like Paleo Hebrew as we now understand it. This is exceedingly complicated though because of the ancient character of Aramaic springing from Akkadian and cross pollenating these others. Maybe another 20 years of study will bring me closer to answering this question more intelligently than I can now.

Andrew Gabriel Roth wrote:
Dawid we rebuke or brothers with love and teach them with love and patience. But we don't compromise on what is right just to be popular with them. If everyone meets everyone else where they are, then when can we expect progress? When do we say "We love you brothers, but this is the truth that we wanted to share with you"? I don't think you see my point. Alot of us in the Nazarene faith have no trouble doing this to Christians, talking about "sloppy agape" and anti Replacement theology, dispensationalism. If we do that to them --and we do--we should not close our eyes when it comes to our own. I am not saying shun. I am saying don't compromise in the dialogue to educate them because the alternative is to except common names as acceptable liturgically and interchangeable from the Word.

We can NOT do that. I thought we were discussing what needs to be done for unity. We must be willing to work with those who have an honest disagreement on issues of halacha. We do not have to give ground. We do not have to be weak about our stance. However, we must be willing to work with these people. Again, I think this is not an accurate analogy. To compare other N'tsarim to Xians is comparing apples to oranges. Xians are outside of the pale of the faith. Orthodox N'tsarim are not. Yes, I think we should teach them. Yes, I think we should rebuke them in love. I do not think that we should sever ourselves from them. We should work with them.

AGR:

Okay, so this is some progress. You agree that WE should not do that as a normative Netarim policy. But YHWH doesn't view Gentiles and Netzarim as "apples and oranges". YHWH has said for us to NOT be a respecter of persons. YHWH has said ONE TORAH for Jew and foreigner. YHWH has said we must use equal weights and measures.

Also I don't see Christians as totally outside the pale of the faith. We disagree with them a lot to be sure, but after all their numbers accepted Y'shua as Messiah--albeit imperfectly--whereas the vast majority of OUR NUMBERS rejected him. Never forget that.

But having said that, I beg your patience a little further, because I do agree we should try to work with those of our brethren who have not come out of the rabbinic practice on this matter. I think there is a way to devise a kind of "Sacred Name Toleration BIll of RIghts". You see it works both ways. While CNUs (common name users) might object to the imposition of sacred names, SNUs (sacred name users, and there are a LOT of us now) equally object to making those names SHAV.

So this is what I propose: Let us assume both sides in this debate have NO PROBLEM with original Hebraic TITLES. In other words, EL, ELOAH, ELOHIM,YAH/MARYAH, and their variations, are NOT under the ban. They are read liturgically every day in every shul on earth. With me so far? The CNUs may say that at home or in private they use the common names too, and that is fine. But in shul let's draft a statement that says something like this:

"While we Netzarim recognize that there differences in opinion on the necessity and exact pronunciation of Sacred Names for Father and Son, we also recognize that both sides can and do use, as a sign of respect to our Creator, Hebraic-original titles both in writing and in spoken prayer. Such titles as EL, ELOAH, ELOHIM, YAH and MASTER YAH (Aramaic) and Yeshua, Yahshua and other variants for the Son, have never been under the rabbinic ban. As as result, common name advocates can neither point to rabbinic tradition nor litugical conventions as a reason to avoid them. At the same time, sacred name advocates have absolutely no objection to these titles either. Therefore, for the sake of peace and unity in worship and in fellowship with one another, we humbly ask that all references to Father and Son reside in this more comfortable middle ground. As long as a Netzari is doing his or her best to pronounce these names from an original Semitic context, there should be no recriminations for the inevitable variances in pronunciation of these names from the brethren. We ask this in all humility so that Father and Son's names may be uplifted in as great a number and with as much unity as is humanly possible, and so that our small numbers are not divided further by this issue."

Do you still have any reservations about it distracting from your main purpose?

AGR:

No, but that is only because Mari/PEACE is just about finished.

Andrew Gabriel Roth wrote:
I do list the source. As I mentioned, Khabouris is the main base text for the 22. Mosul text is used for Western 5, but in some cases, more ancient readings that were rejected from later Aramaic traditions are put back. You will see.Great. Do you have cross-references in the notes?

AGR:

I believe you will be pleased at the level of detail and crossreferences between Khabouris, 1905 and other mss of all kinds. This holds true both in passage oriented footnotes and in the essays. At least, I hope you will be pleased.

Andrew Gabriel Roth wrote:
Dawid your conervatisim and care is laudable, but I have succeeded through not shirking on the facts, showing the truth, and letting the chips fall where they may. I really don't care if anyone, Netzari, Christian, Muslim, has a problem with this. If they do, they can study Aramaic and try to tell me differently and I will listen. But BECAUSE I forced the matter 10 years ago many prominent Messianic Rabbis who used to call Aramaic a joke now embrace it as, if not the original NT, as something of equal authority with the Greek and that clarifies the Greek. I didn't get that far by being timid nor will I depart from my methods now. And even for you, i will consieder making Mari/PEACE available to you in part or more, for you to use along side what ever you have. But really we must unify our base text, and I won't stop on that point until YHWH take my spirit or it is done. But you do what you think best and I will see how I can help. Beyond that, I don't know what to tell you. I respect you but there are differences too.

I, too, have tried this approach. I have forced the issues, and have made very little progress. I've found that when I give the issues to others gently, slowly, and logically they are far more inclined to accept it than when I simply shove it in their faces. Believe me, I love to be direct. I do not like doing things this way. I am generally very in-your-face, open, and honest. You know that from experience. When I have a problem with someone I am completely direct about it. It may have something to do with age.

AGR:

It may very well be YHWH's intent that BOTH our approaches are in play at the same time to witness to our brethren properly. I can find ways to work through our differences without one of obliterating our own preferences. There is much more to do though, and this can't be done in a few postings.

Please understand, when it is finalized, I intend for it to have the "NT" texts in Aramaic. I do not want them to remain in Hebrew. At first I intended to have them in Hebrew, but after considering it, I think it is best to have them in Syriac, so that we can use the Peshitta. I used 1905 because it is what I have access to. As far as unifying our texts I am with you completely.
Akhi, I am tired. I don't think I can do this siddur by myself. And I have not been able to get any material help. Yes, there are five other members of the Siddur project, but everyone is so busy right now. I don't even know what to do next.

AGR:

Well first relax a bit and let YHWH do His work in you. Then I would hope you would look at Mari and see how it might relate. Further, I would like you keep in mind that there is no such thing as a real Hebrew NT, and even the few Hebrew mss of Matthew in my opinion are frauds. But that doesn't mean we can't give them some voice in the footnotes. What's more, there are EXCELLENT Hebrew translations, not from the Greek where it's so uncertain, but from the Aramaic that is its sister language. No reason you can't look at that as well as "pure Aramaic". You clearly need more time to put this together, but that's not a bad thing. Your siddur and my Mari did not happen overnight, and trust me that's is a very good thing.

Hope this helps! I promise if you keep seeking Him this urgently you will find Him there all along. The way will be put at your feet.

Shlama w'burkate
SO LET IT BE WRITTEN! SO LET IT BE DONE!
Andrew Gabriel Roth

[*Albion*]

Dear Andrew,

You said:

"To compare other N'tsarim to Xians is comparing apples to oranges. Xians are outside of the pale of the faith. Orthodox N'tsarim are not. Yes, I think we should teach them "

My Brother, first I would ask you to PLEASE avoid using the term: "Xians", because this is how the Neo-Pagan population refers to Christians.

In spite of everything, there were times where there were NO Nazarenes on the face of the Earth, and "Christians" kept the Light burning.

Yes, they might have referred to themselves as "Hebrew Christians", or simply as Christians who Love the Hebrew/Jewish people(s).

Look at the Assyrian Church of the East, not one question in my mind that we owe the COE, BIG TIME (for being Care Takers of the P'shitta NT), but my Brother, they ARE Christians, and they ARE our Brothers and Sisters in Messiah.

Yes, the divide between the modern Nazarene Movement and the average "Christian" seems HUGE, but not ALL "Christians" fit into that specific mold.

I personally know Christians who Love the Jewish people, and would literally risk their LIVES (as they did during World War II) to save the Jewish people.

These people are "Righteous Gentiles", BEFORE the fact.

Please, let's be kind and Compassionate, like Messiah taught us to be, TO ALL PEOPLE.

"Who is MY NEIGHBOR?" Perhaps he/she is a Christian!

I hope that I don't incur your anger here Andrew, I pray every night for you, and for Mari/P.E.A.C.E.

I'm your Brother in Messiah, Albion ( who came from the Christians )

[Dawid]

I'm sorry, akhi Albion, it was me, not Andrew who said this.

Dear Andrew,

You said:

"To compare other N'tsarim to Xians is comparing apples to oranges. Xians are outside of the pale of the faith. Orthodox N'tsarim are not. Yes, I think we should teach them "

My Brother, first I would ask you to PLEASE avoid using the term: "Xians", because this is how the Neo-Pagan population refers to Christians.

It is also the term that most Orthodox Jews use to refer to them. This is where I picked the term up.

In spite of everything, there were times where there were NO Nazarenes on the face of the Earth, and "Christians" kept the Light burning.

I beg to differ. While the clear history of the N'tsarim ends in the beginning of the fifth century, there were hints of N'tsarim in the eleventh, fourteenth, and fifteenth centuries at least. They were underground, but they do appear, to me, to have existed throughout history.

Yes, they might have referred to themselves as "Hebrew Christians", or simply as Christians who Love the Hebrew/Jewish people(s).

Many of the early members of the "Hebrew Christian" movement were really N'tsarim. They were observant believers. I think they were saddled with an inaccurate title.

Look at the Assyrian Church of the East, not one question in my mind that we owe the COE, BIG TIME (for being Care Takers of the P'shitta NT), but my Brother, they ARE Christians, and they ARE our Brothers and Sisters in Messiah.

I did not say that we did not owe them anything. I did not say that I don't like them. I did not intend them any disrespect, harm, or ill feeling. I have the utmost respect for many of my Xian friends, their theology, their knowledge, and their history. However, I do not believe that they are a part of the same belief system. I would not go so far as some have and say they serve a different God. I would say that they follow a different Messiah, though. I say this because of what R. Yeshu'ah said. He said that a servant can do no better than what his master does, he can only do what he sees his master doing. I see R. Yeshu'ah observing and teaching the Torah. If a man does not do these two things, how can he possibly be a disciple of R. Yeshu'ah? In order to be his Talmid you must cover yourself in his dust. This is why I say that they are outside of the pale of the faith.

Yes, the divide between the modern Nazarene Movement and the average "Christian" seems HUGE, but not ALL "Christians" fit into that specific mold.

I am not trying to fit them into a specific mold. I rely simply on the difference between observance and non-observance.

I personally know Christians who Love the Jewish people, and would literally risk their LIVES (as they did during World War II) to save the Jewish people.

These people are "Righteous Gentiles", BEFORE the fact.

Yes, I know Xians like this, too. They are certainly righteous gentiles. But gentiles nevertheless. I love them dearly. I am very thankful for them. I mean them no disrespect when I say they are not a part of the same faith that I am. They follow a different gospel.

Please, let's be kind and Compassionate, like Messiah taught us to be, TO ALL PEOPLE.

"Who is MY NEIGHBOR?" Perhaps he/she is a Christian!

Again, I do not mean to be uncompassionate, or unkind. I am not saying that they are not my neighbors. I do, however, believe that we follow different roads. I do not harbour ill feelings toward the Xians who love the Jewish people. I only wish I could make them all see the truth.

Shalom,
Dawid

[Andrew Gabriel Roth]

Shlama Akhi Albion,

I'm not offended but I think you really, really misunderstood me big time here. As Dawid says, this was HIS terminology and HIS question. You have to parse through the questions and answers of the entire thread. He has tended to put his answer right after mine without breaks, so when you see "Andrew Gabriel Roth wrote" some of that is me and the rest is him. You responded to his section of the paragraph.

Furthermore, if you read MY RESPONSE, you will see that I DISAGREED with the "apples to oranges" analogy. I said at least half a dozen times that YHWH was no respecter of persons, not to use unequal weights and measures, not to show partiality. I stongly and clearly said the sword cuts both ways in that we Netzarim should not just criticize Christians (how I wrote back) and leave our own brethren unscathed where they fall short. But I stand by the idea that Torah observance is an integral part of both Hebrew and Gentile Messianic faith and practice, but then, you knew that about me all along right? Really brother you MUST take the time and read more carefully. You cannot rush to judgment like this. It is not worthy of the great man that you are and I am disappointed.

And finally, you should realize that the NAZARENE discussion board employs NAZARENE terminology in NAZARENE dialogue. We are entitled to some leeway here. Of course Christians are welcome there as we know we are welcome on the other boards here, but you must come to the NAZARENE board with the proper expectations and not expect us to change to Western Christian paradigm. That's NOT who we are okay?

Lo tov Akhi Khabiba. Lo tov. <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sad.gif" alt="" title="Sad" /><!-- s -->

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

[*Albion*]

Look, I was wrong, and I deeply apologize.

I had a sleep study done last night, I came home from the hospital and that's when I read your posts.

It's VERY hard to sleep when you have wires and other eletronic doo-dads all over your body.

I'm very embarrassed that I thought you said what Dawid actually said.

I'm sorry. My health sucks right now, and it's my fault for even reading when I came home from a bad night in the hospital.

I have no excuse other than that.

OK, I THINK that I heard you saying that one needs to use Nazarene terminology here, did I hear that, or is that my faulty reading again?

Again, I'm sorry. You ought to know what high esteem that I hold you in Andrew, always have, always will.

Shlama Akhi, Albion

[*Albion*]

Brother, "because the Orthodox do it" is a poor excuse for why YOU do it.

If you want to continue to alienate a large number of people here on this board, just keep saying:

"xtians".

In any case, taking sides with the Neo-Pagans is despicible. And using THEIR terminology, IS taking sides.

I wish that I didn't have say this, but if I DON'T, no else here will.

Shlama, Albion

[Dawid]

Brother, "because the Orthodox do it" is a poor excuse for why YOU do it.

If you want to continue to alienate a large number of people here on this board, just keep saying:

"xtians".

In any case, taking sides with the Neo-Pagans is despicible. And using THEIR terminology, IS taking sides.

I wish that I didn't have say this, but if I DON'T, no else here will.

Shlama, Albion

Conversely it could be argued that the simple fact that neo-pagans are one group that happens to use this term is a poor reason to not use it. So far as I can tell its origins are Xian.

Again, I did not intend to alienate anyone. I am sorry that the term so offends you, but I do not think that its origins were offensive. They were simply Greek.

I don't think that Xian originated with the neo-pagans.

Shalom,
Dawid

[Andrew Gabriel Roth]

Shlama Akhi Khabiba Albion,

I accept your apologies of course. But I am dismayed about what you wrote 90 minutes later on Messianic/Nazarene VS. Christian. Now I think you need to apologize to Dawid and I will tell you why.

1) Dawid is CORRECT when he says that we Netzari have always been around from the talmidim of Y'shua and stretching into the present. Our apostolic chain was broken about the fourth century when we were butchered and brutalized, but we went underground, mostly into the COE. The COE's original name was the Assembly of the Nazarenes. Around the ninth century, the Arabic commentator Isho'dad talked about "very few" of us remaining, but we were still there, in the COE and in small disconnected pockets aside from the COE, but NOT extinct. From Isho'dad's time there has ALWAYS been a remnant-- however small-- of Jews who believed in Y'shua. We did not just suddently spring up in Brooklyn in the mid 1960's and to suggest that is the case is not right. We know the facts of our faith and can back them up okay? I mean, are you really going to tell me that you can absolutely prove with 100% certainty that there were no Messianic Jews for the last 1600 years anywhere in the world??? Of course you can't, and since you can't what you said before was just plain wrong.

2) You are also completely wrong about the whole "Xian/Xtian" thing being a veiled pagan insult. Trust me my dear friend when we Netzarim decry paganism wherever it is found we are NOT subtle about it. We call it as we see it and we give names, dates and facts. In comparing Dawid with myself he is WAY MORE PATIENT AND CALM THAN I AM. I REMAIN BAR-RAGHSHEE (SON OF THUNDER) WHEN IT COMES TO CORE ISSUES. Either way we choose to do this, that is our right, even as it is the right of Christendom to explore their differences with us. We are either equal members at the table who can agree to disagree or we are not. But at a minimum dear Brother, you should TAKE DAWID'S WORD FOR IT WHEN HE EXPLAINED HIS INTENTIONS IN USING THE TERM. This term is not some purely evil racial epithet that has no neutral or positive context. If it was, why would Christians all over the world abbreviate "Christmas" as X-mass??? Be fair. Stop looking at appearances only and make a right judgment.

3) You also missed my meaning about Nazarene terms on the Nazarene board. Let me rephrase. If I were posting a thread at a Roman Catholic website like New Advent for example, I would be expected to use common names and Roman terminology to get my point across. I might cross reference a bit with my preferences, but it would be foolhardy of me to asssume RCs either automatically wanted or needed to hear me just use Hebrew and Aramaic terms. Further, when they would dialogue with me, I would have to understand that they may bring up stuff like the veneration of Mary, rosary beads, trans-substantiation, Trinity--all things that I don't typically talk about but it's their backyard and that is THEIR RIGHT. if I play in their house, I need to use their terms (or at least understand them in proper context) and abide by their rules. By the same token, all are welcome to be in any Netzarim house here or elsewhere, but pay us the same courtesy of at least UNDERSTANDING our terminology. If you don't understand that terminology, AT LEAST TAKE OUR WORD FOR WHAT OUR OWN TERMS MEAN.

4) I have noticed that when you are stressed or upset, you seem to gravitate to the most offensive scenario possible in interpreting words that you do not understand. Maybe that's a protection mechanism and I can understand if it is. No harm in admitting that. BUT AKHI I BEG YOU TO UNDERSTAND: NOBODY, NOT ME OR YOU OR DAWID OR PAUL EVEN, IS ABOVE GENTLE CORRECTION. YOU MUST GIVE US THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT AND AT LEAST ASK DAWID WHAT HE MEANT RATHER THAN ASSUME AN INSULT. As you have seen also, Dawid and I have also disagreed on things, but we would both agree (I think, I won't speak for him) that making such groundless "assumption/accustations" is lashon hara, and all 3 of us know that is bad.

5) You know I work with Christians all over the world. I know where to dialogue and where to agree to disagree. While it is true that any two men can argue about faith differences passionately, remember, we also argue passionately within our ranks. Perhaps you are aware of the saying "Where there are 2 Jews you will find 3 opinions"??? I think that Dawid has been most patient and kind with you, and has treated you as the honorable Christian man that you are. You have simply assumed the worst from him, and that is not right.

6) And Dawid's current blood lineage is IRRELVANT. Torah says there is one instruction for Jew and foreigner. If Dawid has bound himself (as I believe he has) to the physical and spiritual aspects of the Covenant, he is part of Israel. Read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and then tell me Akhi--who is New Covenant for??? Then read Romans 11 and Ephesians 2. I will not state the answers directly here, just asking for your time in researching the matter for yourself. Netzari observance is evidence of tribal affiliation in and of itself.

I could go on, but I don't want to be excessive or overly negative. I love you as a brother in truth--you know that. I respect you for your faith, am aware of our difference, and still enjoy your company immensely. I don't think Dawid has ever had hard feeling towards you either, then or now. In the end, we stand together and agree to disagree.

Tov?

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

[*Albion*]

Dear Andrew,

Do YOU really believe that I have ever believed that somewhere on this Earth, that YHWH has NOT had some "Messianic Jews" (I mean here, people who are BORN Jewish) ?

That there has EVER been a time in the last 2,000 years, or so, that Jews who have Believed in Yeshua as Messiah have NOT existed ?

I have NEVER said that.

And I really think that you know me better than that.

I won't apologize to someone who says that I worship some other God, or some other Messiah.

You know that I Love you Andrew, but I can't do that.

I would NEVER judge anyone like that. I find that to be racist and elitist, just as I said above.

Further, you know how many times that I have mentioned the Assyrian Church of the East having Jewish Roots. You know this.

And I've done a lot of other research that I've never written down here at the Forum about the Jewishness of the EARLY Assyrian COE.

As for the "xtian" or "xian" thing. I find it insulting, disturbing, and out of sync with the depth of spirituality of a man like YOU.

This is below you, and in your heart, you know it is. I can feel it through this screen.

OK, some other Orthodox Jews use it. What's THAT got to do with anything?

I know plenty of "christians" in the South who freely use the word "nigger".

Do I use it, because these backwards, racist people WHO CALL THEMSELVES "christians" use it?

Of course not!

I'll continue to post news from Israel here (if Paul Younan doesn't mind), but if this is how the modern Nazarene movement thinks and talks and feels, I think that I'll avoid this section of the Forum from now on.

This is NOT about YOU Andrew.

Your my friend. I Love you, and ain't nothin' gonna change that.

I long for Mari/P.E.A.C.E. thanks again for translating it.

Shlama, Albion

[Dawid]

I don't know how long it will be in final layout--haven't seen it yet--but I do know the pdf and Word docs top out at 77 pages for Wheel of Stars.

Wow. That will be quite the work.

I stand corrected. Yes. But it MAY be there are parts of this that YHWH has done all along and that we have not seen until now (the sealed book in Isaiah, and the increase of knowledge foretold by Daniel). But much of it was ancient knowledge that was lost, with their echoes preserved for us to reconstruct later. Again sorry for the generalities, but it's all I have to offer right now.

That's what I thought you meant.

I don't know if this will make sense, but I perceive an even more paleo Hebrew than the paleo Hebrew we know, and this even more ancient version would probably have traces of Canaanite, Phoenician and Akkadian. But in terms of what we see for certain, my answer would be most like Paleo Hebrew as we now understand it. This is exceedingly complicated though because of the ancient character of Aramaic springing from Akkadian and cross pollenating these others. Maybe another 20 years of study will bring me closer to answering this question more intelligently than I can now.

That has been my expectation. That it would be an even more ancient form of Lashon HaQodesh.

Okay, so this is some progress. You agree that WE should not do that as a normative Netarim policy. But YHWH doesn't view Gentiles and Netzarim as "apples and oranges". YHWH has said for us to NOT be a respecter of persons. YHWH has said ONE TORAH for Jew and foreigner. YHWH has said we must use equal weights and measures.

I'm sorry if there was confusion, but I never meant to say that we should compromise as far as our own practice goes.
One mitswah for you and the stranger that dwells among you. i.e. the convert. I think we should view Xians as we view the Mormons, or Muslims. We serve the same God, but that does not mean we are of the same religion.
I do not intend to respect persons. I simply mean to acknowledge that we must deal with different people differently. If I intend to rebuke one of my peers, I may do it forcefully and with only as much respect as is basically necessary. If I intend to rebuke an elder, I must do it with tact and with a great deal of respect. I don't think that makes me a respecter of persons. Merely a servant of the Torah. Likewise we must deal with those within the faith differently than those outside of the faith.

Also I don't see Christians as totally outside the pale of the faith. We disagree with them a lot to be sure, but after all their numbers accepted Y'shua as Messiah--albeit imperfectly--whereas the vast majority of OUR NUMBERS rejected him. Never forget that.

I do not intend to forget that. But, I believe that one cannot follow the Rebbe and not do as he says. It is written, if anyone says he knows him, but keeps not his commandments, he is a liar and the truth is not in him. If a man claims to know R. Yeshu'ah, but does not keep the Torah, he is not of the faith. Is that not what Yokhanan is saying?
R. Yeshu'ah himself said that if you love me you will keep my commandments.

But having said that, I beg your patience a little further, because I do agree we should try to work with those of our brethren who have not come out of the rabbinic practice on this matter. I think there is a way to devise a kind of "Sacred Name Toleration BIll of RIghts". You see it works both ways. While CNUs (common name users) might object to the imposition of sacred names, SNUs (sacred name users, and there are a LOT of us now) equally object to making those names SHAV.

So this is what I propose: Let us assume both sides in this debate have NO PROBLEM with original Hebraic TITLES. In other words, EL, ELOAH, ELOHIM,YAH/MARYAH, and their variations, are NOT under the ban. They are read liturgically every day in every shul on earth. With me so far? The CNUs may say that at home or in private they use the common names too, and that is fine. But in shul let's draft a statement that says something like this:

"While we Netzarim recognize that there differences in opinion on the necessity and exact pronunciation of Sacred Names for Father and Son, we also recognize that both sides can and do use, as a sign of respect to our Creator, Hebraic-original titles both in writing and in spoken prayer. Such titles as EL, ELOAH, ELOHIM, YAH and MASTER YAH (Aramaic) and Yeshua, Yahshua and other variants for the Son, have never been under the rabbinic ban. As as result, common name advocates can neither point to rabbinic tradition nor litugical conventions as a reason to avoid them. At the same time, sacred name advocates have absolutely no objection to these titles either. Therefore, for the sake of peace and unity in worship and in fellowship with one another, we humbly ask that all references to Father and Son reside in this more comfortable middle ground. As long as a Netzari is doing his or her best to pronounce these names from an original Semitic context, there should be no recriminations for the inevitable variances in pronunciation of these names from the brethren. We ask this in all humility so that Father and Son's names may be uplifted in as great a number and with as much unity as is humanly possible, and so that our small numbers are not divided further by this issue."

This kind of "bill of rights" I could agree with and work with. I think that, really, we're more closely in agreement than we at first seemed. I am not saying that we should give ground and never use the name, but that we should tolerate and work with those who do not.

I believe you will be pleased at the level of detail and crossreferences between Khabouris, 1905 and other mss of all kinds. This holds true both in passage oriented footnotes and in the essays. At least, I hope you will be pleased.

lol. I'm sure I will be pleased. I love being able to follow what I'm looking at back to its sources.

It may very well be YHWH's intent that BOTH our approaches are in play at the same time to witness to our brethren properly. I can find ways to work through our differences without one of obliterating our own preferences. There is much more to do though, and this can't be done in a few postings.

It could be.

Well first relax a bit and let YHWH do His work in you. Then I would hope you would look at Mari and see how it might relate. Further, I would like you keep in mind that there is no such thing as a real Hebrew NT, and even the few Hebrew mss of Matthew in my opinion are frauds. But that doesn't mean we can't give them some voice in the footnotes. What's more, there are EXCELLENT Hebrew translations, not from the Greek where it's so uncertain, but from the Aramaic that is its sister language. No reason you can't look at that as well as "pure Aramaic". You clearly need more time to put this together, but that's not a bad thing. Your siddur and my Mari did not happen overnight, and trust me that's is a very good thing.

I know that there is no ancient Hebrew source. That is why I used a Hebrew translation from Greek, but edited it to match the Peshitta. It should be a reasonable, though rigid, translation of the 1905 text readings.
Akhi, it is not a matter of how much time I've spent on it. It's a matter of I have done virtually all that I can do. I'm not a programmer, or a designer, I don't know Aramaic, or Greek, and my range of influence is small. For the rest, I need others. That's why I've been trying to get support at the Jerusalem Council. But they are so small, they are just a new organization. All that is left for me to do is to get the word out.

[Amatsyah]

Shlama Akhay,

No wonder why covenant communities hardly exist anymore. Listen to us!

Just LISTEN to us!!!!!

About the only voice of reason here over "Xtian" or whatever crap this is, has been Andrew's. Dawid, I'm telling you, if you keep falling under the spell of those who call themselves Jews but really are not, then you're eventually going to end up renouncing the correct Mashiakh yourself, bro. I'll tell you why. You are on the verge of blasphemy of the Ruakh haKodesh. If you don't accept this realization now, then just forget about dialoguing with Andrew. I'll tell you why. Though I've been rejected by 5 separate Christian institutions, the last two being expressly over sticking up for Torah, I will never myself succomb to the loathsome lie that anyone BUT Yeshua ha Mashiakh saved me, continued to sustain me until nearly half a decade later when Andrew himself - though I were a CHRISTIAN - became the catalyst for which the Ruakh haKodesh rebuked, reproved, and led into all Truth, this foolish follower of Christ/Messiah that I am. I have no recollection of converting gods. I forsook no 'Christ', to become clothed in 'Messiah'. I merely repented from, as you yourself put it, another GOSPEL. Yes, the issue is over halakha, NOT elohim (or for those who don't consider Yeshua divine, simply messiahs). I'm sick and tired of seeing pursuits for Truth alone, or pursuits for Spirit alone.

I have specifically felt the darkness of YHWH's judgment come over a group of Christians for publically humiliating me over my zealous defense for the non-unliteralness of Scripture (TaNaKh), but that was SPECIFIC. I did not make that call of judgment myself. I merely felt what was happening in the Spirit, by proclaiming the Truth. NO DIFFERENT THAN my reception of Jesus (the Yeshua Who responds to linguistically-ignorant folk) nor of my reception of Torah (which is veiled in part over ALL Yisrael).

Orthodox? Have you read the Talmud, buddy? They don't call it "Babylonian" for nothing, ya know! Spend some time researching what Judaism REALLY is, friend. Because if it really were of Mashiakh, then they wouldn't be REJECTING the One and Only true Mashiakh, who Himself is also Jewish! Albion pasted a nice, good article for all to seriously ponder, over what "Israel" REALLY thinks of the Messiah till this day. I personally love more those who LOVE the Messiah, than those who HATE the Messiah and yet hypocritically profess to wear His personal Torah as their life's Tallit. This is false. You really must not understand Judaism nor the spirit of Talmud. It speaks ever so blasphemously of mine, yours, Andrew's, and Albion's Messiah. Did you know this? Do you know that no man can serve two masters? He will either prefer the one and neglect the other, or LOVE the one and HATE the other. I give Yehudi stock, born and raised, no different judgment than Christian stock. Or Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic, or anyone else.

Yes, the same. Equal weights and measures. Can Torah save without Messiah? No. Can Messiah save without Torah? No. But to what level can Torah save without Messiah, as opposed to the level that Messiah can save without or with little, Torah? Do not Christians follow more Torah by the Spirit, than Yehudim without? I know that Andrew believes Brit haChadasha to be Torah. Part of the Davar, issued forth from Miltha. The difference being, that Christians CAN grow into more Torah understanding, because they DO possess the Spirit - that Teacher Who leads one into all Truth. It is also written that the Scritpures can make one wise unto salvation. As they should. They did for me, the night I opened the Good Book. So why do They not for most of Judaism? Ponder that for a moment. It's not just about veils over the eyes or exile or such. Whom did Yeshua say is His mother, brother, and sister? Hypocrites? The faithless? Cognizant Lawbreakers? Or those who do His Word?

Is Albion so loathsome to you, that you cannot see Messiah in him? Are Orthodox so beautiful because they are of Avraham's blood, that you cannot not see Messiah in them? One Torah for all, one Messiah for all. And for those who embrace Messiah, reveal the veiled beauty of Torah to them, as Andrew somehow managed to towards me. He is your elder. I'd listen more.

Can you discern the heart? Can you differentiate between the duped sheep, and the duping wolf? Andrew judged me in equity and justice, and alas, my "Jesus" turned out to be Yeshua, and my "gospel" turned out to be garbage! I had a new Gospel, but not a new Messiah, for Christ's sake! If anyone serves a foreign elohim, it surely is those who have yet to see their "messiah" come, though He truly has already come! We are ALL blind, akhi, so we MUST serve what we know to be true, foremost, and that ALONE is YHWH. HE IS THE TEACHER. Cast off the sages, and be clothed in Torah! Excise the gods of Babylonian Church, AND Babylonian Talmud! Veer not to the right, NOR to the left! Isthis not what akhan Andrew has been saying all along? For if not, then you owe him rebuke for not converting me also to the TRUE MESSIAH! Albion IS our brother, so don't piss him off with monickers that sound like Martian names. Okay?

Albion, I don't know what to say to you, brother. Please do not generalize. Forgive us, though, for having done the same thing? And I say "we", because - ahem - WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A BODY, FOLKS! Yes, there cannot be argument over Scripture, when It saith that ONE commandment be given to ALL who believe in the One true God. YHWH Elohim. I have seen Christians grieve the Spirit of Set-Apartness over MANY issues, perhaps even to the point of handing themselves over to hasatan - but I will tell you all, I myself forsook my last congregation, a "shul", a "Nazarene Synagogue", because they grieved the Ruakh of Holiness EVEN MORE, by this very issue:

In their growing preference for Zohar, they made unclean that which YHWH made clean in demanding my recantation of the Elohim that saved me the time He saved me. Blasphemy. I will NOT call satan, belial, nor beezulbub, that which is rather Messiah, Deity, and Lord. Battle of the gods? Yes, it is. But I choose YHWH Elohim, to the gods clothed in Israel's exile, as well as Rome's paganism. Do not forget history, mishpachot. Do not forget. Come out of her, all of us. Together let us sit in ashes, clothed in sackcloth, and mourn for the abominations we ourselves and our ancestors have heaped upon His Tov Name, that we may be restored and our land healed. I do not prefer sacraments, but neither do I prefer accusing those who can love M.A.R.I., with an unclean savior (obviously of the devil) at best. Because we'd better hope-to-God that this is indeed true, or we will find OURSELVES guilty of blasphemy .... and those Pharisees IN SCRIPTURE went so far as to even blaspheme the Holy Spirit because they were not OF SCRIPTURE. So yes, whether of Yehudi or of pagan origin, let's try to stick with what's IN SCRIPTURE, and "Xtian" is just pushing it too far, no matter how laughable in might be at first.

If our brother (Albion) be offended, especially if he considers himself Messianic and Gentile, then how are we to persuade him through this ugly spirit of ours, towards the truth to be found in P.E.A.C.E.? Shall we sour his faith? Or his friendship? Should his understanding be commanded to be circumcised before fully understanding circumcision? If so, then I am Andrew's greatest failure. He should've insulted me a little bit more, so that I may have been grieved a little bit more while converting. Rather, somehow merely reciting the Words of Torah found Their conversion in my heart instead. But no new Jesus. Just a new understanding of His given Name. Please understand, all of us.

-Ryan

[Dawid]

Dear Andrew,

Do YOU really believe that I have ever believed that somewhere on this Earth, that YHWH has NOT had some "Messianic Jews" (I mean here, people who are BORN Jewish) ?

That there has EVER been a time in the last 2,000 years, or so, that Jews who have Believed in Yeshua as Messiah have NOT existed ?

I think Akhan Andrew and I are saying that there have always been such people who were observant of the Torah, and held to the original sect of the N'tsarim.

And I really think that you know me better than that.

I won't apologize to someone who says that I worship some other God, or some other Messiah.

I never said that you worship another God. You worship HaQodesh, Baruch Hu. I also don't think an apology is needed.

You know that I Love you Andrew, but I can't do that.

I would NEVER judge anyone like that. I find that to be racist and elitist, just as I said above.

I don't see how I can be racist on this issue. It is a matter of what a person believes and does, not who his daddy is. I'm not trying to be elitist. Just calling it as I see it.

Further, you know how many times that I have mentioned the Assyrian Church of the East having Jewish Roots. You know this.

And I've done a lot of other research that I've never written down here at the Forum about the Jewishness of the EARLY Assyrian COE.

It's interesting, the traces of N'tsareism I've seen have been in the west (north Africa, Europe, and America). I'm curious to find out more about the quote Akhan Andrew mentioned, and about the Jewish origins of the COE. Can either of you recommend a book on the subject?

As for the "xtian" or "xian" thing. I find it insulting, disturbing, and out of sync with the depth of spirituality of a man like YOU.

This is below you, and in your heart, you know it is. I can feel it through this screen.

OK, some other Orthodox Jews use it. What's THAT got to do with anything?

I know plenty of "christians" in the South who freely use the word "nigger".

Do I use it, because these backwards, racist people WHO CALL THEMSELVES "christians" use it?

Of course not!

Again, the origin of this term is actually Xian. X being the symbol for the cross, and therefore Chr*st. I'm sorry if you find it disturbing, but I do not like using the word Chr*st. Neither do the Orthodox. So I picked up this substitute from them.

I'll continue to post news from Israel here (if Paul Younan doesn't mind), but if this is how the modern Nazarene movement thinks and talks and feels, I think that I'll avoid this section of the Forum from now on.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Albion. I did not intend to offend you.

Shalom uvrachoth.
Dawid

[Dawid]

Hi guys. May I please ask things to cool down here? I too don't like the term "Xians" also but I know what Dawid is attempting to say here: we should NOT yoke ourselves with unbelievers. There should be a line on who follows Torah and who doesn't- you can't give Satan a finger and Dawid does not want to place his name along people who claim in church that "Torah is leaven" who talk about "the bondage of the Torah" and other blasphemies.Moses when commanded by Pharoah to stay in Egypt said he would leave immediately. Then Pharoah said he could leave within a few months. Moses said no, that he would leave IMMEDIATELY. Pharoah then said he could leave...but he would have to leave the cattle and belongings of Israelites in Egypt. Moses said NO. The moral of the story is that you don't compromise with Satan, you don't share a table with Belial. I understand his position, my only disagreement with him is that Rav Shaul said that we should have fellowship with people with a minimum level of observance because everybody is on a different level in their personal paths. What do you think Akhi Andrew? Is this correct? I see nothing bad at ALL with this, it's done in decent churches all the time, only Dawid and Andrew are more stringent- you can't pick and choose what you want of the Torah to follow and then expect somebody not to call you a heretic!

Oh, and I have a question. You said the Apostolic chain was broken in the Fourth Century (I too noticed that something seemed to revolve around that era, something big). Was it Constantine who did this? That seems like a good hypothesis.

I agree with Rafa that we definitely need to calm down.
I agree also that we should fellowship with those who have a minimum observance and understanding. What I object to is having fellowship with those who absolutely reject the Torah, and thus reject the Mashiakh, since he is the embodiment of the Torah.

[Dawid]

Shlama Akhay,

No wonder why covenant communities hardly exist anymore. Listen to us!

Just LISTEN to us!!!!!

About the only voice of reason here over "Xtian" or whatever crap this is, has been Andrew's. Dawid, I'm telling you, if you keep falling under the spell of those who call themselves Jews but really are not, then you're eventually going to end up renouncing the correct Mashiakh yourself, bro. I'll tell you why. You are on the verge of blasphemy of the Ruakh haKodesh. If you don't accept this realization now, then just forget about dialoguing with Andrew. I'll tell you why. Though I've been rejected by 5 separate Christian institutions, the last two being expressly over sticking up for Torah, I will never myself succomb to the loathsome lie that anyone BUT Yeshua ha Mashiakh saved me, continued to sustain me until nearly half a decade later when Andrew himself - though I were a CHRISTIAN - became the catalyst for which the Ruakh haKodesh rebuked, reproved, and led into all Truth, this foolish follower of Christ/Messiah that I am. I have no recollection of converting gods. I forsook no 'Christ', to become clothed in 'Messiah'. I merely repented from, as you yourself put it, another GOSPEL. Yes, the issue is over halakha, NOT elohim (or for those who don't consider Yeshua divine, simply messiahs). I'm sick and tired of seeing pursuits for Truth alone, or pursuits for Spirit alone.

Tell me, how am I about to blaspheme against the Ruakh Qodesh?
I am not about to say that we are saved by anyone other than Yeshu'ah HaMashiakh. I have not ever said that.
I already said that I believe Xians serve the same God. Now, please, tell me what a "gospel" is.

I have specifically felt the darkness of YHWH's judgment come over a group of Christians for publically humiliating me over my zealous defense for the non-unliteralness of Scripture (TaNaKh), but that was SPECIFIC. I did not make that call of judgment myself. I merely felt what was happening in the Spirit, by proclaiming the Truth. NO DIFFERENT THAN my reception of Jesus (the Yeshua Who responds to linguistically-ignorant folk) nor of my reception of Torah (which is veiled in part over ALL Yisrael).

I believe that Yeshu'ah knows who people mean when they say Je*us. However, I do not think that is an excuse for those who know better. But I don't see what this has to do with the subject at hand.

Orthodox? Have you read the Talmud, buddy? They don't call it "Babylonian" for nothing, ya know! Spend some time researching what Judaism REALLY is, friend.

Yes, I've studied Talmud. I've also studied Zohar, Tanya, Rashi, Pesikta Rabbati. Not to mention that I've studied the Karaite sages. That doesn't mean I'm becoming Karaite. I've also studied the Falasha works. That doesn't mean I'm becoming a Falasha. I've also studied the Apocrypha and the western church fathers. That doesn't mean I'm becoming Catholic. I think for you to tell me to study what Judaism "REALLY is" is quite bold. I've made an intense study of all forms of Judaism, from Samaritans to Chabadniks, Karaites to Haredis. Essenes to Conservatives. I know what Judaism is.

Because if it really were of Mashiakh, then they wouldn't be REJECTING the One and Only true Mashiakh, who Himself is also Jewish! Albion pasted a nice, good article for all to seriously ponder, over what "Israel" REALLY thinks of the Messiah till this day. I personally love more those who LOVE the Messiah, than those who HATE the Messiah and yet hypocritically profess to wear His personal Torah as their life's Tallit. This is false.

Isn't it equally false to claim to profess the Mashiakh and yet reject his personal Torah? How can one claim to follow the man, and yet reject his instructions? Isn't this what Yokhanan said about these people: "For he that saith, I know him, and doth not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." I Jn. 2:4 (Murdock)
I do not hate these people. I have no ill feelings toward them. They have simply been deceived, as I was myself. They're just wrong, they're not evil. But the fact that they're not evil makes them no less wrong.

You really must not understand Judaism nor the spirit of Talmud. It speaks ever so blasphemously of mine, yours, Andrew's, and Albion's Messiah. Did you know this? Do you know that no man can serve two masters? He will either prefer the one and neglect the other, or LOVE the one and HATE the other. I give Yehudi stock, born and raised, no different judgment than Christian stock. Or Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic, or anyone else.

Yes, I know. I've read it. It speaks of R. Yeshu'ah as a mamzer, an illegitimate child, a sorcerer, they call him by an acronym for "may his name be blotted out." I have also read what they say of the N'tsarim. I know. I understand. This is why I am not Orthodox. However, that does not mean that they are 100% wrong 100% of the time. This is not true any more than it is true to say that the Xians are 100% wrong 100% of the time. They're not. If you read the saying of Hillel, or the Zohar, or the teachings of Menachem Schneerson, you will find that they virtually quote R. Yeshu'ah and his Talmidim.
I am not saying that I treat the Orthodox differently than I treat the Xians. I never said that, akhi.

Yes, the same. Equal weights and measures. Can Torah save without Messiah? No. Can Messiah save without Torah? No. But to what level can Torah save without Messiah, as opposed to the level that Messiah can save without or with little, Torah? Do not Christians follow more Torah by the Spirit, than Yehudim without? I know that Andrew believes Brit haChadasha to be Torah. Part of the Davar, issued forth from Miltha. The difference being, that Christians CAN grow into more Torah understanding, because they DO possess the Spirit - that Teacher Who leads one into all Truth. It is also written that the Scritpures can make one wise unto salvation. As they should. They did for me, the night I opened the Good Book. So why do They not for most of Judaism? Ponder that for a moment. It's not just about veils over the eyes or exile or such. Whom did Yeshua say is His mother, brother, and sister? Hypocrites? The faithless? Cognizant Lawbreakers? Or those who do His Word?

I must ask you not to talk about my friends that way. Yes. I have Orthodox friends. If you do not, please reserve your judgment on them until you do. Neither can save without the other. That is all I'm saying.
I do not think there is a minimum requirement for how much of Torah a person must have. I do not believe that it is called HaDerekh for nothing. It is a road. If one stops progressing, (s)he dies. Xians often start well. They begin by learning to observe some basic instructions of Torah. Then they stop learning. They stop growing more observant. For if anyone says he knows Him, but keeps not His commandments...

Is Albion so loathsome to you, that you cannot see Messiah in him? Are Orthodox so beautiful because they are of Avraham's blood, that you cannot not see Messiah in them? One Torah for all, one Messiah for all. And for those who embrace Messiah, reveal the veiled beauty of Torah to them, as Andrew somehow managed to towards me. He is your elder. I'd listen more.

If I were so fond of Orthodoxy I would not be Karaite in philosophy. Albion, and any other Xian, is not loathsome to me. I simply do not believe that the Xians, without Torah, are following Mashiakh. I did not say that I prefer the Orthodox. I did not say they are any more favourable to me than are the Xians.
I love Akhan Andrew. However, I've also had elders tell me that it is not necessary to observe the Torah. I have also had elders tell me I should observe the halacha of the Rabbanites. I have had elders tell me many things. But one elder told me something very important. His name was Sha'ul, and he wrote to me that I should look in the Word to see whether or not these things be true.

Can you discern the heart? Can you differentiate between the duped sheep, and the duping wolf? Andrew judged me in equity and justice, and alas, my "Jesus" turned out to be Yeshua, and my "gospel" turned out to be garbage! I had a new Gospel, but not a new Messiah, for Christ's sake! If anyone serves a foreign elohim, it surely is those who have yet to see their "messiah" come, though He truly has already come! We are ALL blind, akhi, so we MUST serve what we know to be true, foremost, and that ALONE is YHWH. HE IS THE TEACHER. Cast off the sages, and be clothed in Torah! Excise the gods of Babylonian Church, AND Babylonian Talmud! Veer not to the right, NOR to the left! Isthis not what akhan Andrew has been saying all along? For if not, then you owe him rebuke for not converting me also to the TRUE MESSIAH! Albion IS our brother, so don't piss him off with monickers that sound like Martian names. Okay?

I never claimed to discern the heart. I believe in the written word. That is all I have left. I believe in what it says. If you love me, keep my commandments. By this we know that we know him, that we keep his commandments.
If you have a new gospel, how can you not have a new Messiah?
I do not follow the sages. I am not Rabbanite.
I did not intend to anger Albion. Or any Xian. But that does not mean that I can change who I am any more than a zebra can change his stripes.

Albion, I don't know what to say to you, brother. Please do not generalize. Forgive us, though, for having done the same thing? And I say "we", because - ahem - WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A BODY, FOLKS! Yes, there cannot be argument over Scripture, when It saith that ONE commandment be given to ALL who believe in the One true God. YHWH Elohim. I have seen Christians grieve the Spirit of Set-Apartness over MANY issues, perhaps even to the point of handing themselves over to hasatan - but I will tell you all, I myself forsook my last congregation, a "shul", a "Nazarene Synagogue", because they grieved the Ruakh of Holiness EVEN MORE, by this very issue:

In their growing preference for Zohar, they made unclean that which YHWH made clean in demanding my recantation of the Elohim that saved me the time He saved me. Blasphemy. I will NOT call satan, belial, nor beezulbub, that which is rather Messiah, Deity, and Lord. Battle of the gods? Yes, it is. But I choose YHWH Elohim, to the gods clothed in Israel's exile, as well as Rome's paganism. Do not forget history, mishpachot. Do not forget. Come out of her, all of us. Together let us sit in ashes, clothed in sackcloth, and mourn for the abominations we ourselves and our ancestors have heaped upon His Tov Name, that we may be restored and our land healed. I do not prefer sacraments, but neither do I prefer accusing those who can love M.A.R.I., with an unclean savior (obviously of the devil) at best. Because we'd better hope-to-God that this is indeed true, or we will find OURSELVES guilty of blasphemy .... and those Pharisees IN SCRIPTURE went so far as to even blaspheme the Holy Spirit because they were not OF SCRIPTURE. So yes, whether of Yehudi or of pagan origin, let's try to stick with what's IN SCRIPTURE, and "Xtian" is just pushing it too far, no matter how laughable in might be at first.

I would never tell you to reject the God that saved you. That is not the point. The point is that one cannot compare the man of lawlessness with the Living Torah. How can these two be the same? I am not a Rabbanite. I have studied Zohar, and while it has some things right, it has a lot of things wrong. Please do not confuse me with the members of the shul that you left. I am not them. I believe that we must follow the Mashiakh as he walks in the Torah. I believe YHWH Eloheynu, YHWH ekhad. Please calm down, Akhi. I am not trying to get anyone to leave the Mashiakh. Only to find the Torah.

If our brother (Albion) be offended, especially if he considers himself Messianic and Gentile, then how are we to persuade him through this ugly spirit of ours, towards the truth to be found in P.E.A.C.E.? Shall we sour his faith? Or his friendship? Should his understanding be commanded to be circumcised before fully understanding circumcision? If so, then I am Andrew's greatest failure. He should've insulted me a little bit more, so that I may have been grieved a little bit more while converting. Rather, somehow merely reciting the Words of Torah found Their conversion in my heart instead. But no new Jesus. Just a new understanding of His given Name. Please understand, all of us.

I have said over and over that it was never my intention to offend. I am willing to apologize to Albion for the offense. I had no idea at the beginning that one little word would start all of this. If the Xians teach against the Torah, and the Messiah teaches the Torah, how can we say that their Chr*st and our Messiah are one and the same? How is this possible? As Jerome said, they claim to be both Jews and Xians, but in reality they are neither. If we claim to be both, we cannot be either.

I am very sorry for all the things that my conviction has caused. I do not want to create a rift. I do not want to insult anyone. I do not want to alienate anyone. Perhaps it were better if I left. I've not helped anything.

Shalom,
Dawid

[Dawid]

I would like to clarify what I mean when I say that we do not follow the same Messiah. In II Corinthians 11:4 Sha'ul refers to those who are teaching another Yeshu'ah, another gospel, and another spirit. This is the context in which I mean that they are not the same Yeshua, not the same Messiah.