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Luke and that census
#1
One argument used to suggest that the gospel of Luke was not written by anyone directly connected to the apostles of Jesus , is not historically accurate and must have been written well after the fact is that Luke 2:1-6 tells us Jesus was born around the time of a census conducted whilst Quirinius governed Syria. Augustus issued the said census.

Quote: 1In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2(This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3And everyone went to his own town to register.
4So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son

It is documented that Augustus issued three census and that they were only of the Roman population One was in 6 CE when Quirinius was govenor of Syria.
The problem with this is that if this is the census Luke mentions this clearly places the birth of Jesus after the death of Herod. Herod died somewhere between 4 and 1 BCE. The exact date seems to up in the air to some point due to Josephus being the main indicator and probably problems with his records (but that is another issue).
Matthew's gospel however clearly places the birth of Jesus before the death of Herod.

Luke however, interestingly, does give another chronology for the birth of Jesus.

John the baptist went out baptising in the 15th year of Tiberius.

Quote:Luke 3:1In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar???when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene??? 2during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert. 3He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.


As the first year of the reign of Tiberius was 13CE the fifteenth year was 27CE.

Now Jesus was around 30 years old when he began his ministry.

Quote:Luke 3:23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry.

So if Jesus was 30 years old in 27CE then he must have been born in 3BCE

So if Luke is not referring to the census of Roman citizens in 6CE.

Orosius, writing in the 5th century wrote..


Quote:???[Augustus] ordered that a census be taken of each province everywhere and that all men be enrolled. ... This is the earliest and most famous public acknowledgment which marked Caesar as the first of all men and the Romans as lords of the world, a published list of all men entered individually .... This first and greatest census was taken, since in this one name of Caesar all the peoples of the great nations took oath, and at the same time, through the participation in the census, were made apart of one society..Orosius, VI.22 and VII.2.

See the reference here that it marked Caesar "the first of all men". Not seeming to be one of the 20 year census's but rather the oath taking in connection with Augustus receiving the title of Pater Patriae, on February 5, 2 B.C.E

Further...
Quote:Remarkably, an inscription found in Paphlagonia (north central Asia Minor) that is clearly dated to 3 B.C. records an oath of obedience ???taken by the inhabitants of Paphlagonia and the Roman businessmen dwelling among them.??? The inscription states that Romans as well as non-citizens took the oath. And importantly, the whole of the population were required to swear it. ???The same oath was sworn also by all the people in the land [italics mine] at the altars of Augustus in the temples of Augustus in the various districts.??? Lewis and Reinhold, Roman Civilization, II.34???35.

From here, http://www.askelm.com/star/star014.htm

Now what does the peshitta have to do with all this?

The peshitta is the only version of the NT that distinguishes (albeit slightly) between the 20 year census and the census mentioned in Luke.

Here is the census in Luke 2:1-4. http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNT...uqach2.pdf

And here is what is clearly one of the 20 year census's (referred to as a poll tax) in Acts 5:37 http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNT...uqach2.pdf. This occured in 6CE, I believe.
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#2
The above scenario may also explain the use of the word first in Luke 2:2.

Luke 2:2

This census first happened during the govenorship of Quirinius in Syria.

Why the need to mention first unless to distinguish it from the second one in 6 CE when Quirinius governed Syria (again?)
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#3
Michael,

Excellent post. Thanks. Good to see you back here.

Keith
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#4
Actually the word "DURING' or "BEFORE" make a lot of difference.
???????????? ?????? ?????? ?????????????? ??
Ethridge Luke 2:1 NOW it was in those days that there went forth a mandate from Augustus Caesar to enrol the people of his dominion.
Murdock Luke 2:1 And in those days it occurred, that a decree went forth from Augustus Caesar, that all the people of his dominion should be enrolled.
KJV Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Luke 2:2 - ?????? ???????????????? ???????????? ?????? ?????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ??
Luke 2:2 This enrolment was first made under the government of Qurinos in Suria.
Luke 2:2 And this enrollment was first made under the presidency of Quirinus in Syria.
Luke 2:2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)

The correct reading should be Luke 2:2 And this enrollment was first made BEFORE the presidency of Quirinus in Syria. Quirinius was appointed governor of Syria, after the banishment of Herod Archelaus in AD 6, which had, as consequence, that Iudaea Province (the conglomeration of Samaria, Judea proper, and Idumea) came under direct Roman administration.[1] An account of the census was given by the first century historian Josephus,[2] who associated it with the beginning of a movement that he called the Zealots.

That would make the birth of Jesus around 7AD which is too late for about 30 years old when he started his ministry. Jesus was baptised around 27AD would make him only 20 years old. If he was born in 3BC, then it is about 30 years old by 27AD.

Luk 3:1 And in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, in the presidency of Pontius Pilate in Judaea, while Herod was Tetrarch in Galilee, and Philip his brother Tetrarch in Ituraea and in the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias Tetrarch of Abilene,
Luk 3:2 in the high priesthood of Annas and of Caiaphas; the word of God was upon John the son of Zachariah, in the wilderness.


I checked with the Aramaic Peshitta and there is no mention of "during" or before". Literally " this enrollment was first made earlier than the enrollment conducted by Quirinius in Syria". Any objections?
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#5
positron Wrote:.


I checked with the Aramaic Peshitta and there is no mention of "during" or before". Literally " this enrollment was first made earlier than the enrollment conducted by Quirinius in Syria". Any objections?

I'm not sure I follow. If there is no mention of "before" then can we say that it literally reads " this enrollment was first made earlier than the enrollment conducted by Quirinius in Syria"?
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#6
All ocurrences of the word 'first' in the NT, refer to 'the first' or 'formerly'

qad,mayt'a` can mean 'first, fore'.
Now there is 1 Peter 4:4 where we find the same word, were a good rendering would be: "in that you not run riot with them in this former debauchery."

Now, I wonder, if the word qad,mayt'a` also could mean 'before' together with 'former, fore, first'
Is the word mentioned in Acts 5:36 the same? (where it really means before this time)
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#7
March 7, 2009

A scholarly and thorough study by Harold W. Hoehner seems to have covered all the issues and relevant references and citations concerning the ???Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ??? [Academic Books, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids., Michigan, 1977]. Here is the summary:

Christ???s birth..................................................... winter 5/4 B.C.
Herod the Great???s death.................................... March/April 4 B.C.
Prefects began to rule over Judea and Samaria ........................6 A.D.
Christ at the temple when twelve ..................Passover April 29, 9 A.D.
Caiaphas became high priest ............................................18 A.D.
Pilate arrived in Judea ....................................................26 A.D.
Commencement of John the Baptist???s ministry ....................... 29 A.D.
Commencement of Christ???s ministry .............. summer/autumn 29 A.D.
Christ???s first Passover (John 2:13) ........................... April 7, 30 A.D.
John the Baptist imprisoned ......................................30 or 31 A.D.
Christ???s second Passover .....................................April 25, 31 A.D.
John the Baptist???s death ...........................................31 or 32 A.D.
Christ at the Feast of Tabernacles (John 5:1) ...... October 21-28, 31 A.D.
Christ???s third Passover (John 6:4)....................... April 13/14, 32 A.D.
Christ at he Feast of Tabernacles (John 7:2, 10) September 10-17, 32 A.D.
Christ at the Feast of Dedication (John 10:22-39) ...December 18, 32 A.D.
Christ???s final week .................................. March 28-April 5, 33 A.D.
.............Arrived in Bethany ......................Saturday, March 28
.............Triumphal entry Monday, ...........................March 30
.............Christ ate Passover, betrayed, arrested Thursday, April 2
.............Christ tried and crucified..................... Friday, April 3
.............Christ resurrected ...........................Sunday, April 5
Christ??? ascension (Acts 1) .........................Thursday, May 14, 33 A.D.
Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) ............................Sunday, May 25, 33 A.D.

If you don't like these values, you need to get the book and check out the detailed and extensive scholoarship that is presented.

Otto
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#8
ograabe Wrote:March 7, 2009

A scholarly and thorough study by Harold W. Hoehner seems to have covered all the issues and relevant references and citations concerning the ???Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ??? [Academic Books, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids., Michigan, 1977].

Possibly. Dr Ernest L Martins book, The Star that Astonished the World is also very good, though he would not agree with the above author. The problems here have vexed scholars for many many years. Having Herods death in 4 BC seems to throw every thing out. For example the data you presented would make Jesus around 33 or 34 at the time Luke says he was around 30.
Now I will grant that 33 or 34 could be argued to be "around 30", but there may be a better explanation that makes Jesus 30 years old.

Scholars believe Herod died in 4 BC because of two references from Josephus (who wrote many years afterwards)

However, AJ 18.4.6 tells us that "Philip... died in the twentieth year of Tiberius's reign and after 37 years of his own rule over Trachonitis and Gaulonitis..."

Again, BJ 1.33.8, "So Herod, having survived the slaughter of his son five days, died, having reigned thirty-four years since he had caused Antigonus to be slain, and obtained his kingdom; but thirty-seven years since he had been made king by the Romans." Antigonus died in 37 BCE.

These references seem to nail his death down to 4BC.

However it is possible that Josephus got these dates wrong, and there is another internal piece of evidence within Josepus's own writings which seem to show this is the case.
There was an eclipse , just before the eeath of Herod, and Dr Martin argues quite convincingly IMHO that this eclipse could not have been in either 4 or 5 BC, but could only have been in 1BC.

When the 1BC date is used, all the other pieces of the jigsaw fit together.
Josephus, ewriting 70 or 80 myears later, just got some dates wrong, and ever since there has been confusion when one tries to compare them to Luke and Matthews timelines.

IOW Luqa is very accurate when he says Jesus was about 30 years old at the start of John ministry and rather it is Josephus, who wrote later than Luqa, who got the dates slightly wrong.
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#9
At the start of his ministry Jesus must have been older than 30 years to be recognized as a mature man in Judea. If he was 33 or 34, he was truly "around 30 years old". If he was exactly 30 years old the author would have written that he was 30 years old rather than "around 30 years old".

Otto
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#10
ograabe Wrote:At the start of his ministry Jesus must have been older than 30 years to be recognized as a mature man in Judea.


Do you have reference fo this Otto? Thanks.

ograabe Wrote:If he was 33 or 34, he was truly "around 30 years old".

Or truly around 33 or 34 I would think.
There is no other instance of Luke rounding numbers off to the nearest ten. He is always more precise.

ograabe Wrote:If he was exactly 30 years old the author would have written that he was 30 years old rather than "around 30 years old".

Only if Luke knew the exact date Jesus began his ministry. But Luke gives no indication at all the he knew the exact date.
In fact Luke gives no indication that he even knew the exact date of the beginning of Johns preaching.

Quote:1In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar???when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene??? 2during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert. 3He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Some time during that year, during the priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas John began preaching. Some time during that preaching Jesus himself was baptised.
Without the precise dates Luke could not say Jesus was exactly thirty, but he knew he must have been either thirty of very close.
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#11
tsumare Wrote:How do I report my college student in the 2010 census? Instructions say do not report a student who lives at college - how do these people get counted, and where should they be listed on the census form?

Ask your question at your college.
This is a website about the Bible, not about 'census' at school (or something like that)
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