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The earliest most original gospel ie. the Peshitta
#1
Hi Aramaicists

I've read online sources and seen the strong body of evidence which points to Aramaic primacy of the New Testament and I'm convinced it's true.

With that in mind I went in pursuit of the nearest source of the gospel but I still don't know where it exists. I went to a village in Syria where Aramaic is still spoken today however even in their churches they pray in Arabic and there are no Aramaic gospels in that town - their Bibles are in Arabic. In fact the Aramaic of that village is entirely just a spoken language - they don't deal with it in a written form and haven't agreed on an alphabet.

Where then, is this Peshitta in a printed format? Where are the churches that use Aramaic as their only language in their services and who use the Peshitta? The story I've read is that the Eastern Church received the gospels from the hands of the apostles and preserved that gospel to this day. But then I've also heard some missionaries retranslated Aramaic gospels from the Greek and gave those Bibles to Aramaic speakers. Obviously I don't want to use a translation of a translation of a etc. etc. I remember seeing a scanned version of a very old Peshitta online which is kept in a museum somewhere. Is *this* the absolute best source we have?

Thanks all,
Ben
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#2
Hey Ben,

There are churches all over the world where the service, books and conversation is completely in Aramaic. In Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, European nations, the U.S., Australia, etc.

Where are you located?
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#3
Hi Paul,

I'm visiting Lebanon at the moment and was in Syria last week but I'm originally from Australia and I'm going back there really soon.

Let's say I went to a Chaldean church in Sydney when I get back to Australia. I can expect songs, prayers and everything to be in Aramaic in the services but the Bibles they use in church are they...

1) Aramaic --> Greek ---> Chaldean Aramaic
or
2) Aramaic or Aramaic --> Chaldean Aramaic
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#4
If you're in Lebanon visit the CoE in Zahle, where you'll hear all the Aramaic you can stand. My parents were married there.

In Australia, check out our diocese at:

http://assyrianchurch.com.au/

In Sydney you can visit St. Mary's church. In fact, the only Aramaic school outside of the middle east is also located there:

http://www.shaps.nsw.edu.au/
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#5
Thanks Paul, I'm out of time on this trip but I'll do that on another trip insha'allah. Great to hear there's an Aramaic school in Australia. I heard there's a place for adults to study somewhere in Sydney too.

Do you have any info about my other question regarding the origins of the Aramaic Bibles? What source do you use for the Aramaic/English Bible you have on your website.

Oh one more thing if you don't mind. Do you know a word for 'prince' in Aramaic which sounds similar to 'Thomas'? I found one instance of 'prince' in the Penshitta on your website and the letters were ra, sh, aa.
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#6
Hi Jookie,

I'm not sure of the nature of your question: yes, there were American Protestant missionaries in the 19th-20th centuries who didn't like the native scriptures and translated the Greek into modern neo-Aramaic dialects for the benefit of their newly-formed protestant congregations (ie, the people they proselytized from among the CoE), but those are in no way related to the Peshitta. The text used on this site is based on ancient manuscript witnesses like the Khabouris and also the official printed version of the CoE.
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#7
April 12, 2008

Dear Paul,

Who publishes the official CoE version of the Peshitta? Is it generally available?

Thanks,

Otto
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#8
ograabe Wrote:April 12, 2008

Dear Paul,

Who publishes the official CoE version of the Peshitta? Is it generally available?

Thanks,

Otto

Hey Otto,

The Church of the East publishes these books. Here are the ones most commonly used:

http://assyrianmarket.com/bible-in-old-aramaic.html (Old Aramaic)
http://assyrianmarket.com/bible-in-neo-assyrian.html (Neo-Aramaic)
http://assyrianmarket.com/ewin-galeyoun.html (Lectionary used on the altar, readings in Neo-Aramaic)

-Shamasha Paul
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#9
April 15, 2008

Dear Paul,

I did not expect the CoE version of the Peshitta to have the Western five as do the assyrianmarket.com editions. I assumed they were Peshitto texts. What am I missing?

Otto
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#10
ograabe Wrote:April 15, 2008

Dear Paul,

I did not expect the CoE version of the Peshitta to have the Western five as do the assyrianmarket.com editions. I assumed they were Peshitto texts. What am I missing?

Otto

Hey Otto,

The five books are indeed included in modern printed versions, with a short explanation at the beginning of each one that they are not part of the original manuscripts of the Peshitta, and were translated from the Greek. Additionally, they are not read from during the service, but are there for the edification and personal study of the faithful.
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#11
Hello Mr. Younan:

Please, what are the differences between the old aramaic and neo-assyrian editions? Is the script? Or is there something else?

Felipe

PS. I'm sorry for my rough English, but that is not my first language <!-- sTongue --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/poketoungeb.gif" alt="Tongue" title="Poke Tounge" /><!-- sTongue -->

Paul Younan Wrote:
ograabe Wrote:April 12, 2008

Dear Paul,

Who publishes the official CoE version of the Peshitta? Is it generally available?

Thanks,

Otto

Hey Otto,

The Church of the East publishes these books. Here are the ones most commonly used:

http://assyrianmarket.com/bible-in-old-aramaic.html (Old Aramaic)
http://assyrianmarket.com/bible-in-neo-assyrian.html (Neo-Aramaic)
http://assyrianmarket.com/ewin-galeyoun.html (Lectionary used on the altar, readings in Neo-Aramaic)

-Shamasha Paul
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#12
Phil Wrote:Hello Mr. Younan:

Please, what are the differences between the old aramaic and neo-assyrian editions? Is the script? Or is there something else?

Felipe

PS. I'm sorry for my rough English, but that is not my first language <!-- sTongue --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/poketoungeb.gif" alt="Tongue" title="Poke Tounge" /><!-- sTongue -->

Hello Phil,

Your English is just fine.

The Assyrian version is a form of Neo-Aramaic, it is a simplified version of ancient Aramaic. Without being too technical, comparing modern Neo-Aramaic (sometimes called "Assyrian", "Chaldean" or "Syriac") with biblical Aramaic is somewhat similar to comparing American English with that of Shakespeare.

Both editions use the same script, the modern script which is called "swadaya" (that means "contemporary"), and include vowel markings. Looking at the two editions you would not be able to tell them apart from the script, the only difference being that one is in modern/easy Aramaic and the other in the ancient tongue which is a lot more complicated and less understood by the modern speakers (unless they are learned in the differences).

Hope that helps, take care.

+Shamasha Paul
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#13
Thank you for your reply, Mr. Younan! Very helpful!
This mean, for example, that the Ambrosiano and the Khabouris Codex are like old aramaic? And the Peshitta Interlinear here at peshitta.org?


Paul Younan Wrote:
Phil Wrote:Hello Mr. Younan:

Please, what are the differences between the old aramaic and neo-assyrian editions? Is the script? Or is there something else?

Felipe

PS. I'm sorry for my rough English, but that is not my first language <!-- sTongue --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/poketoungeb.gif" alt="Tongue" title="Poke Tounge" /><!-- sTongue -->

Hello Phil,

Your English is just fine.

The Assyrian version is a form of Neo-Aramaic, it is a simplified version of ancient Aramaic. Without being too technical, comparing modern Neo-Aramaic (sometimes called "Assyrian", "Chaldean" or "Syriac") with biblical Aramaic is somewhat similar to comparing American English with that of Shakespeare.

Both editions use the same script, the modern script which is called "swadaya" (that means "contemporary"), and include vowel markings. Looking at the two editions you would not be able to tell them apart from the script, the only difference being that one is in modern/easy Aramaic and the other in the ancient tongue which is a lot more complicated and less understood by the modern speakers (unless they are learned in the differences).

Hope that helps, take care.

+Shamasha Paul
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#14
Hi Phil,

Yes, that is correct. The Ambrosian, Khabouris and the Interlinear on this website are the Old Aramaic. The Neo-Aramaic, while based on the Old Aramaic, is quite different in many ways.

Observe how much English has changed in the last 4 centuries:

http://www.enotes.com/macbeth-text/act-i-scene-i (original text of Macbeth, with modern English side-by-side)

Imagine 20 centuries in Aramaic!

+Shamasha Paul
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#15
Thanks so much for the information you provided here Paul.

I actually forgot about this thread after some travels and then a google search of the same question again brought me back here again.

So if I wanted to find the most authentic Peshitta then this is the best available <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://assyrianmarket.com/bible-in-old-aramaic.html">http://assyrianmarket.com/bible-in-old-aramaic.html</a><!-- m --> ?

Do you know where the oldest surviving Peshitta is kept? If so, are there any differences between the one sold at assyrianmarket and the oldest source? I'm sure I saw a photo of a very old Peshitta stored in a museum somewhere.

Thanks,
Ben
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