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Young Earth or Old Earth?
#16
Hi Thirdwoe:
If I was certain of your name, I'd address you as such. The book of Genesis is a pain in the neck for virtually all higher learning institutions in this generation, in the aftermath of Darwin's book "On The Origin of the Species". The question, Young Earth or Old Earth? would not arise if it was not for Darwin and the athiestic generation that coddled his point of view.
Genesis 1:20 begins the Fifth Day when God created living creatures in the sea, and birds in the sky. The phrase "nefesh khayia" is used to describe them. The fifth day ends in Genesis 1:23. Remember "nefesh khayia". Genesis 1:24 begins the sixth day, and again the phrase "nefesh khayia" is used, but this time to describe land animals. This phrase also appears in Genesis 2:7 to describe the formation of androgenous Adam along with the phrase "nishmat khayim". The phrase "nishmat ruakh khayim" appears in Genesis 7:22 when all humanity is destroyed in the flood. That's the basic framework used in Genesis. Call it a time framework if you will. Day as we know it is set by the revolution of the earth. Evening and morning is the result of a 24 hour period clocking the earth's revolution in space. We can speculate that the rotation of the earth was slower on the first day, but why would that be necessary? According to the text, no "nefesh khayia" were created till the fifth day and man, created on the sixth day is the only intelligent observer. It appears to me that it is a matter of faith to believe that the revolution of the earth was already fixed on the first day. I suggest that this is the point made in Hebrews 11:3. Now, evolutionists seem to need long, long periods of time to support the "short, but sure changes of evolution", as Darwin phrased it. Nevertheless, in our modern time it is the athiests that embrace his teachings, rejecting faith, not because there is something to be gained scientifically by speculating long days or changing periods of rotation of the earth, but because the Genesis record also contains the history of the sinful fall of humanity, shortly after his creation. If the evolutionist can somehow destroy the credibility of the Genesis record, he can also wipe out the very record that points to his sinfulness, as a descendent of Adam.
Every evolutionist is a descendent of Adam, namely living soul, "nefesh khayia" with the Breath of Life from God, "living nashama"(Genesis 2:7). It is this living spiritual nashama that gives humanity the ability to articulate and communicate with God. Sin is the very act that has severed our relationship with God. Darwinian theory and all that it claims cannot bring healing to the severed relationship between God and humanity.
Our learning institutions are dominated by athiests that have turned their backs on the Living God and cannot respond to His Spirit, as their Creator. Therefore they are left to their own ways, and deceptions. Sadly, this is the manifest nature of the evolutionary beast. Anyone that seeks higher learning today will have to either accept evolution and thus be accepted by their athiestic colleagues, or make a stand for God and the more literal creation record of Genesis and be ridiculed as a fool. If one can hold the course, under continual pressure and ridicule, then one can truly advance in the fields of science and higher education and perhaps even make contributions that will help turn the tide.

Shlama,
Stephen P. Silver
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#17
Hello Mr. Silver.... Thanks for your tone.

I say, whether God took one of His 'Days' a thousand years say.... or one of our 'Days' 24-hours...it destroys nothing of the fact that in the Beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth and Made them in 6 days.... and whether it was instantaneous or a long process that God chose to use is not the real issue.... The issue is, did God do it or did it just happen by chance...

Of course we know the answer to the question of origin because we have God's gift of Faith, the substance of things not seen.

I don't care if God created the Heaven and the Earth in an instant in the beginning and then took 6 24-hour days to furnish them.... nor do I care that He may have taken a long time to develop all of this creation.... I enjoy being apart of it nonetheless and rejoice in that God created it.

I'm not dogmatic either way, I am just pointing out certain statements in the Scripture and looking at them closely...It could very well be that Earth is older than 7000 years.... though I believe that Mankind has been here about that long.... and was made from the elements/minerals of the Earth by God....And then something special happened to him/us...God blew the breath of Life into his nostrils.... and mankind became living souls.

I think this is a wonderful thing, even though some wish that it were not so and insist that we are just the descendants of animals...
Reply
#18
Shlama Akhi Chuck,

The day age theory was born of the theory of evolution- "cosmological evolution", which is the theory that the entire universe evolved from a "singularity"
15 billion years ago - a single infinitesmal point in which all the matter and space of the present universe inhered. From that came the stars and from the stars came the planets, including earth, the water, the plants, the animals. Even those who stop short of biological evolution and say God created living things directly pretty much as they are now, still accept cosmic evolution by default when they subcribe to the day-age theory, which comes from a Godless premise and theory, not from scripture.

As I wrote before, the scripture says earth existed on the first day whereas the stars were made and set in the heavens on the fourth day. This is flatly contradicted by all scientific theory on the origin of the universe, which asserts the stars to be about 10 billion years older than earth. "Science" also contradicts the Biblical order of the plants being created on the third day, before the sun, which was made on the fourth day (presumably billions of years after plants), which is an absurdity. Even if you shorten each day to a thousand years, you have green plants of all sorts and trees existing without the sun for centuries!

Why should believers in the word of God feel compelled to compromise with Godless theories and "oppositions of science falsely so called" ? 1 Tim 6:20

Evolutionary theory does not start with apes becoming humans. It starts with the Big Bang 15 billion years ago and covers every hypothetical event which supposedly transpired since then, making the galaxies of stars, planets, atmospheres, earth, ocean, land, first life form from chemicals, all plants from that one celled organism, all animals from that one celled organism (or from another independently evolved living organism), fish into amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to birds and mammals, including apes, and apes into humans. Biological evolution is only the tip of the iceberg, under which tip lies 14 billion years of previous evolutionary development responsible for the universe we know of today.We cannot effectively deny the tip of the iceberg and thereby dismiss faith in evolution, when we ignore the 95% huge mass under the surface on which the visible part rests.

Most people seem to think evolution is merely the biological changing of living species.That is a delusion based on ignorance.

All evolutionary theories- biological and the underlying cosmological evolution, depend on a belief in billions of years. Many Christians seem willing to concede that foundational basis and still think they can win the intellectual and spiritual war with Satan and his army. That too is a delusion.

"If you give your enemy an inch, he will take a mile."; at least, so the saying goes. The Western church has given 14.9999996 billion miles, as it were, to the enemy, and thinks to hold on firmly to the last 0.00004% (6000 years) of time as non-evolutionary time! I wonder who will win that argument! <!-- s:dontgetit: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/dontgetit.gif" alt=":dontgetit:" title="Dont Get It" /><!-- s:dontgetit: -->

SOme say:"Ah, but it isn't important. As long as we believe in Jesus and the Gospel". But that is the point. If the Enemy can discredit the account in Genesis as unreliable or unscientific, he can do the same with the New Testament and the resurrection of The Christ, all the miracles, everything! And he already has done so for countless souls, and continues to win hearts and minds, because we have fled the battle field and surrendered the battle for minds and hearts to the skeptics and unbelievers.

Where are the footsoldiers of The Messiah in this country?

"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" Psalms 11:3

If Genesis 1 is not foundational, I don't know what is.

Dave
Reply
#19
Quote:Shlama Akhi Chuck,


The day age theory was born of the theory of evolution- "cosmological evolution", which is the theory that the entire universe evolved from a "singularity" 15 billion years ago - a single infinitesimal point in which all the matter and space of the present universe inhered. From that came the stars and from the stars came the planets, including earth, the water, the plants, and the animals. Even those who stop short of biological evolution and say God created living things directly pretty much as they are now, still accept cosmic evolution by default when they subscribe to the day-age theory, which comes from a Godless premise and theory, not from scripture.

As I wrote before, the scripture says earth existed on the first day whereas the stars were made and set in the heavens on the fourth day. This is flatly contradicted by all scientific theory on the origin of the universe, which asserts the stars to be about 10 billion years older than earth. "Science" also contradicts the Biblical order of the plants being created on the third day, before the sun, which was made on the fourth day (presumably billions of years after plants), which is an absurdity. Even if you shorten each day to a thousand years, you have green plants of all sorts and trees existing without the sun for centuries!
I???ll repeat again what I have said a number of times already???and hope to make it a bit clearer.

I am not dogmatic about what I say???I am pointing out some Scriptures and pondering them rather and taking a close look at what it says there???

Regarding the Heaven and the Earth being created ???IN THE BEGINNING??????. I wasn???t there to witness how and how fast God did His work of creation???. And it doesn???t change the fact for me that it was God who did the work, whether He snapped His fingers so to speak and the Heaven and Earth appeared in an instant or that He may have worked with His hands and took His sweet time???

I have been pointing out that the Scripture passages there in Genesis chapter one seem to show that the Heaven and the Earth were created by God first in an unfurnished state???. and that after the Earth was thus created ???In the beginning??? that the Spirit of God was hovering above this unfurnished Earth BEFORE God said: LET THERE BE LIGHT!

And thus started His Six Days of furnishing them, the Heaven and the Earth He had created in the beginning???.

Now, we know that this ???Light??? is not our planet???s Sun, nor can it be any of the other Suns/Stars out there because they were all created on the 4th ???Day??????

This Light would seem sufficient to help the plant life grow up all over the Earth during the 3rd day???before the Sun arrived on the scene whether it were a 24-hour Day or a One Thousand year Day???

And concerning this 3rd ???Day??????. lets look close???. it says there in Genesis 1:11 And God said: ???Let the Earth bring forth???. and the Earth brought forth???. (The grasses, herbs, and all the kinds of trees.)

Notice that? The Earth brought vegetation forth and it grew up from the ground???. that is a process is it not? It does not say there that God planted them all full grown, or that they instantaneously appeared all over the planet in an instant full grown with fruit hanging on the trees???. But it says that God commanded the Earth to ???bring them forth??? and it did so???as it does to this day???.

Also, on the 5th ???Day??? it says that God commanded the Waters to bring forth the moving creatures of the Sea as well as the foul of every kind???and it says that the Waters brought them forth???God of course making all of this work???He was making it all happen???and again we see a process of something bringing something else forth???. By Gods commands???

Also, on the 6th ???Day??? God said: Let the Earth bring forth the Animals???. and again we see a process taking place???. later in Genesis 2:19 it gives us further information when it reveals that God ???out of the ground/Earth He formed every beast of the field and every foul of the air???a process and a working/forming going on here???.


Quote:Why should believers in the word of God feel compelled to compromise with Godless theories and "oppositions of science falsely so called??? ? 1 Tim 6:20
They shouldn???t???.

Quote:Evolutionary theory does not start with apes becoming humans. It starts with the Big Bang 15 billion years ago and covers every hypothetical event which supposedly transpired since then, making the galaxies of stars, planets, atmospheres, earth, ocean, land, first life form from chemicals, all plants from that one celled organism, all animals from that one celled organism (or from another independently evolved living organism), fish into amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to birds and mammals, including apes, and apes into humans. Biological evolution is only the tip of the iceberg, under which tip lies 14 billion years of previous evolutionary development responsible for the universe we know of today. We cannot effectively deny the tip of the iceberg and thereby dismiss faith in evolution, when we ignore the 95% huge mass under the surface on which the visible part rests.
God said it???. and BANG! There it was???. <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink --> Out of nothing came everything???. And the carnal mind will try and explain how it happened???But God tells us what we need to know in His Word???

Quote:Most people seem to think evolution is merely the biological changing of living species. That is a delusion based on ignorance.
You notice how God didn???t ask man for his ideas on how to do His work and all their theories haven???t changed reality one bit as to how or how long He took to do His work???

Quote:All evolutionary theories- biological and the underlying cosmological evolution, depend on a belief in billions of years. Many Christians seem willing to concede that foundational basis and still think they can win the intellectual and spiritual war with Satan and his army. That too is a delusion.
The carnal mind is enmity with God???. Yeshua didn???t argue with satan???. He just pointed to and quoted what was written in The Word???Theories come and go, but the Truth will remain forever???.

Quote:"If you give your enemy an inch, he will take a mile."; at least, so the saying goes.
I???ve read the end of the Bible???it doesn???t end in a bummer???. And God is glorified in His Saints???

Quote:The Western church has given 14.9999996 billion miles, as it were, to the enemy, and thinks to hold on firmly to the last 0.00004% (6000 years) of time as non-evolutionary time! I wonder who will win that argument!
God wins all arguments in the end???. and However God created the Universe is His business???. He didn???t bother waiting to ask us how He would go about it???. and we don???t know to this day every detail as to how or how long???. Men of all stripes will continue to ponder and argue over what and how this all is???. Until God spells it all out in detail for us???. And until then, I am content.

Quote:Some say:" Ah, but it isn't important. As long as we believe in Jesus and the Gospel"??? But that is the point. If the Enemy can discredit the account in Genesis as unreliable or unscientific, he can do the same with the New Testament and the resurrection of The Christ, all the miracles, everything! And he already has done so for countless souls, and continues to win hearts and minds, because we have fled the battle field and surrendered the battle for minds and hearts to the sceptics and unbelievers.
We don???t win hearts and minds???. God does???we can???t make anyone born again???God does???. Just like Yeshua said: no one can come to me UNLESS the Father draw them???. and when Yeshua prayed for ONLY those whom the Father gave to him???. We can???t get people saved by a good argument???. nor can we damn them if we don???t have all our facts straight???.

Quote:Where are the foot soldiers of The Messiah in this country?
Wherever God has put them???.

Quote:"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" Psalms 11:3 If Genesis 1 is not foundational, I don't know what is.
It is a revelation???. Only understood by those who have the Spirit of God dwelling within them and guiding them into all Truth???.


Quote:Dave
Chuck
Reply
#20
Shlama Akhi Chuck,

Quote:I am not dogmatic about what I say
.

Why not? The scripture plainly states the world was created in 6 days. Are you ashamed to say you believe it was 6 - 24 hour days?
If God had meant thousands or millions or billions of years, He could have said so. Genesis is not poetry or parables. It is historical narrative.

Quote:God wins all arguments in the end???. and However God created the Universe is His business???. He didn???t bother waiting to ask us how He would go about it???. and we don???t know to this day every detail as to how or how long???. Men of all stripes will continue to ponder and argue over what and how this all is???. Until God spells it all out in detail for us???. And until then, I am content.

How God created is not the issue. Every detail as to how is not the issue I have been discussing. The issue is the veracity of plain scripture versus scientific theory which contradicts scripture. You and I both believe in scripture as the word of God. We both know Genesis one is contradicted by evolutionary theory of the universe. Since God made plants on day 3 and the sun on day four, how can we defend thousands of years or more for each day? That would mean trees and green plants without any sun for centuries. It also disregards the Hebrew usage of the word "Yom" with a number, with "evening" or "morning" as a 24 hour day in all other places where it so occurs.

We are not commissioned to "let "God win hearts and minds". He commissioned us to ???Therefore disciple all the nations and baptize them in the name of The Father and The Son and The Spirit of Holiness.???
20 ???And instruct them to keep everything whatever I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you every day, even unto the end of time. Amen???

God works through His people and wins people through His Spirit in us. Where His word is not preached and taught, no one will be won to Him.
Where there is no vision (revelation), the people perish. "How shall they hear without a preacher?"

God will not fight our battles for us while we sit and watch. We must take up the sword, put on the armor and go out and face the enemy in the stead of The Messiah, in His Name. Every word of God is pure and worth fighting for, especially the word Satan is attacking. He is attacking Genesis one relentlessly, so it must be important to him. Satan wants the minds and hearts of men. It is in that war we must engage:

The weapons of our warfare are not according to the flesh, but of the
power of God, and by it we subdue rebellious fortresses,
And we pull down reasonings and every high thing that is exalted
against the knowledge of God
, and we take all minds prisoner to the
obedience of The Messiah
. 2 Cor 10:4,5

And "Man shall not live by bread only, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."
Every word of God is equally important, considering the Source.

I hope you are not offended by my reasonings with you.

Blessings in Him

Dave
Reply
#21
Quote:Shlama Akhi Chuck,

"I am not dogmatic about what I say."

Why not?

I could be wrong about what I am seeing in the Scriptures and because I believe I could be wrong about it I am not dogmatic about it. I am certainly dogmatic about certain doctrines in the Scriptures though.

dogmatic:
adjective:
If someone is dogmatic, they are certain that they are right and that everyone else is wrong.
(Taken from the Cambridge Online Dictionary)


Quote:The scripture plainly states the world was created in 6 days.
If the Scriptures "plainly states" this somewhere then we wouldn't be having this extended discussion. It would be completely obvious what the teaching is???. but the Scriptures are worded in such a way that seems to be pointing to something more than what we could conclude at a quick glance and not careful study???

For instance, it does not state that God "Created the world in 6 days". Perhaps someone might have made a version of the Scriptures that would say this, but I haven't seen it in the original language.

Point me to the verse or verses that says that God created the world in 6 days.



Quote:Are you ashamed to say you believe it was 6 - 24 hour days?
I am not ashamed to say that I could be wrong either way about it. If it simply declared this in the Scripture, it would be an easy thing to proclaim???. but it does not.

Quote:If God had meant thousands or millions or billions of years, He could have said so. Genesis is not poetry or parables. It is historical narrative.
It clearly states that God Created the Heaven and the Earth In the Beginning???. then it says that He Made the Heaven and the Earth in six days???

In these verses it says???

"And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all his work which God created and made. Genesis 2:3

The word for Created and Made are distinct words in the original language???
The word under the English word Made is Asah, which carries the meaning of ???to fashion something.
The word under the English word Created is Bara, which carries the meaning of???. to absolutely create something.

In the same verse the two words are used here, because both statements are correct???

In the beginning God created (Bara) the Heaven and the Earth???Gen 1:1 ???

And???

In six days Yahweh made (Asah) heaven and earth, Exodus 31:17

Also to point something else out:

It is written:

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created (Bara), in the day (Yowm) that Yahweh God made (Asah) the earth and the heavens," Genesis 2:4

If we always say that Yowm must mean a 24-hour period???then that would mean that we would have to teach that God created and made the Heaven and the Earth in a single Day/Yowm???

But here, Yowm/Day carries the meaning of an age or period of time that God took to Create and Make the Heaven and the Earth, rather than a have to be 24-hour day and night period of sun rises and sun sets???

This is a verse to answer the question where the time period referred to God's workday could have been longer than a 24-hour period of time???as we count time.


Quote:How God created is not the issue. Every detail as to how is not the issue I have been discussing. The issue is the veracity of plain scripture versus scientific theory, which contradicts scripture. You and I both believe in scripture as the word of God. We both know Genesis one is contradicted by evolutionary theory of the universe.

Since God made plants on day 3 and the sun on day four, how can we defend thousands of years or more for each day? That would mean trees and green plants without any sun for centuries. It also disregards the Hebrew usage of the word "Yom" with a number, with "evening" or "morning" as a 24-hour day in all other places where it so occurs.

I havent been espousing evolution in any way here...I do not believe or teach that theory. We are discussing the age of the Earth and how could it be older than 7000 years....I have been pointing out that the languge used seems to indicate that it could have been a longer period of time than six 24-hour days as we recon time on Earth today.

As to the plants needing the Sun to grow on the 3rd day, when the Sun wasn't there until the 4th day???and if these days are a thousand year Yowm/time period... one of God's 'Days' say???

Then as I pointed out in the last response, it says that on the 1st 'Day' God created Light???. Photosynthesis being taken care of there if need be???


Quote:I hope you are not offended by my reasonings with you.
No, I am not offended at all with your reasonings Dave???

May God bless you with His Spirit as you grow in His knowledge

Chuck
Reply
#22
Shlama Akhi Chuck,

Quote:If we always say that Yowm must mean a 24-hour period???then that would mean that we would have to teach that God created and made the Heaven and the Earth in a single Day/Yowm???
But that is not what I have said. "Yowm" can refer to a longer period, as Genesis 2:4 indicates. There the "day" is a 6 day period. If "yowm" is used with the preposition "Beth" attached and is a general temporal reference, "byowm" as a part of a compound grammatical construction, (followed here by an infinitive) is an idiomatic statement meaning simply, "when" (Refuting Compromise, pages 70,71).

What I said was that when "Yowm" is used in conjunction with an ordinal or cardinal number, outside of Genesis 1, it is a 24 hour day. When it is used with "evening" or "morning", it is a 24 hour day. In Genesis 1, each of the six days is used in conjunction with all 3! "Yowm" in Genesis one simply cannot refer to anything but what we call a solar day.

The length of the 6 creation days did not become an issue until the theory of cosmological evolution arose in the 19th century. None of the church fathers taught that the creation days were long ages of time. None of the reformers taught that. A few of them taught that the creation days were shorter than 24 hours- instantaneous! Augustine was one of those. All the church fathers and reformers who commented on the subject of the age of the earth, (and most did), taught that the earth was less than 7000 years old.

Even a day-ager proponent, Davis Young writes:
"The virtually unanimous opinion among early Christians until the time of Augustine was that human history had lasted about 5500 years.It is also very probable that the age of the world was regarded as the same number of years..., for the church fathers generally do not reveal any sharp distinctions between the initial creation of the world and the creation of man.We find absolutely no one arguing that the earth is tens of thousands of years old on the grounds that the days are used figuratively for long periods of time."

The Westminster Confession (1646) says "It pleased God The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, for the manifestation of the glory of His eternal power, wisdom, and goodness, in the beginning, to create or make of nothing, the world, and all things therein, whether visible or invisible, in the space of six days, and all very good."

If there be doubt left as to the length of those days, the Westminster Annotations (1657) - a commentary on the entire Bible, have on Genesis 1:5:
"The word "day" is taken for the day natural, consisting of 24 hours, which is measured most usually from sun rising to sun rising, or from the sun setting to the sun setting. In the Hebrew, it is one day in number, not expressly the first day in order."

This had been the view of Christendom for 1800 years until Lyell's uniformatarian doctrine of Geology's millions of years took hold in the early 1800's, and gave rise to Darwin's biological theory soon after.

Hugh Ross has been promoting the lie that Christians have believed the day-age theory of creation since the early centuries of Christianity. His books have had a wide audience and his radio and TV appearances have convinced many Christians that Big-Bang science can enlighten us as to what Genesis one really is all about.

Ge 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So we agree that God rested on the seventh day from all His work which He created and made. We know that Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Ge 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:Re 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

We can agree then, I think, that God was creating and making during the six days, since scripture says he created all living creatures (day five) and man (day six). Indeed, He created all things, so the six days of making Heaven and Earth were also six days of creating Heaven and Earth. He did not cease from creating until the 7th day. I see no point in maintaining the first six days were not all creation days. They certainly were.


Another point overlooked by day-agers: The plants need sunlight or something very like it to photosynthesize make food and live. But each day is described as having an evening and morning. Evening is the onset of darkness of night. Morning is the onset of light of day. God made day and night (light and darkness) on day one and separated them and named them on day one, so evening and morning occurred on day one and every day thereafter. If a day were a thousand years, this would leave plants on day three in the dark for about 500 years.That is not a minor difficulty! It would seem to me that is an untenable position, to say the least.
If all the days 1 to six were the same, (and they would have to be the same to be grouped together and numbered, otherwise the narrative is senseless and incoherent) then all the animals on day five must live through 500 years of darkness of night, as must Adam and Eve on day six! What kind of Paradise is that? Their lives would have been also half over at the end of the day, if they were made at the start of the day, and I don't believe God needed all day to do it.He simply spoke, and it was done. And if the seventh day was 1000 years, Adam and Eve never lived through it! Neither did any of the animals made the day before!

Just a few thoughts to ponder.


Blessings,

Dave
Reply
#23
Good points Dave....but lets try and tackle something here ok

Quote:"Yowm" in Genesis one simply cannot refer to anything but what we call a solar day. Another point overlooked by day-agers: The plants need sunlight or something very like it to photosynthesize make food and live. But each day is described as having an evening and morning. Evening is the onset of darkness of night. Morning is the onset of light of day. God made day and night (light and darkness) on day one and separated them and named them on day one, so evening and morning occurred on day one and every day thereafter.
Can you explain then, how day 1, 2, and 3 are to be considered each a ???solar day??? when the Sol/Sun was not in existence until the 4th day?

And what do you say the 'LIGHT' is that God brought forth on the 1st Day if not the Sun/Sol ....what else could it be?

If you say that this Light that God brought forth on the 1st day was not our Sun???. did it act like our Sun in the sky then? Counting off 3 days of risings and settings around it until being replaced with the Sun/Sol proper on the 4th 'day'?

This would mean that it was a fixed thing in space that the Earth spun around???. And if so, then what became of this 'Light' that appears on the 1st day and which God calls DAY???.

Please explain???


Quote:We can agree then, I think, that God was creating and making during the six days, since scripture says he created all living creatures (day five) and man (day six). Indeed, He created all things, so the six days of making Heaven and Earth were also six days of creating Heaven and Earth. He did not cease from creating until the 7th day. I see no point in maintaining the first six days were not all creation days. They certainly were.
Yes???. God Creating/Making something from something???. whereas at 1st when God created the Earth, it was out of nothing that it (minerals and elements) came forth from???. nothing else in existence (that we know of)??? all Plants, Sea and Land creatures and even the Human came out of this Earth that God created at first, being a compounded formula of the Earth???s minerals and elements???which when these bodies die return unto the dirt/dust being completely dehydrated of all water???.

I say God formed/made all these bodies from the material that He created in the beginning???the Earth that was at first empty and void but for water and dirt???and this making and forming taking place during 6 ???days??? when He furnished the Heavens and the Earth that He created at the origin.


Quote:If a day were a thousand years, this would leave plants on day three in the dark for about 500 years.

That is not a minor difficulty! It would seem to me that is an untenable position, to say the least.

If all the days 1 to six were the same, (and they would have to be the same to be grouped together and numbered, otherwise the narrative is senseless and incoherent) then all the animals on day five must live through 500 years of darkness of night, as must Adam and Eve on day six! What kind of Paradise is that? Their lives would have been also half over at the end of the day, if they were made at the start of the day, and I don't believe God needed all day to do it. He simply spoke, and it was done.

And if the seventh day was 1000 years, Adam and Eve never lived through it! Neither did any of the animals made the day before!
That???s all if you suppose that the Earth spun around that Light God brought forth on the 1st ???Day??? and that this Light was set in space until the Sun showed up and took over the job and the Earth was spinning around this 1st Light in Space it at a real slow pace???. then later on the 4th day when the Sun replaces the 1st Light, the Earth spins faster to make a 24-hour revolution around the new light in the sky???.

But I don???t say this was the case???.

Notice that this Light that God brings forth on the first ???day??? is Called DAY and not making up the first day as the Earth spins around it say???. God calls this Light ???DAY???

Now what do you say this DAY/Light is???

Some orb in the Sky that the Earth rotated around until the Sun/Sol showed up on the scene? I say no.

But what do you say it was then???.


Anyone?
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#24
Shlama Akhi Chuck,

We cannot know more than what scripture states about it. It was light, which produced the same effect as the sun, giving evening and morning for each of the days as the earth spun on its axis as it does now. This light had to be localized in one point of space, facing only one side of earth at a given time. All the days had to be similar in length or they could not be categorized and numbered as time keeping devices, which is what days are, according to verse 14. The days,years and seasons, as well as signs (v. 14) are based on the sun, moon and stars, and should not be confused with each other.Since days four through seven had the sun to demarcate evening and morning, we must assume the light created on day one served the same function and that the earth's spin was at the same rate as on day four. To make the earth's day vastly longer than 24 hours presents insurmountable obstacles, both to Biology (plants and animal life) and to logic (day three- 1000 years; day four- 24 hours?) Even a one year day would assure most plants on earth would die. But why the need to confuse a day with a year, or with 1000 years? If you examine 2 Peter 3:8
Quote:And of this one thing, my beloved, be not forgetful, That one day, to the Lord, is as a thousand years; and a thousand years, as one day.
, you'll notice that this is a simile : "like a thousand years; like one day". It does not say "one day=1000 years".

Another thing you will notice is that Peter is referring to a verse in Psalms 90:4
Quote: For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Not only is there a comparison or likeness of 1000 years with a day, but also with a "watch in the night", which is a 3 hour period. This is metaphorical language, not a scientific metric system, Peter is referring to. He is saying that our time frame does not apply to God, but no exact equivalent or conversion is given, just the idea that a very long time for us is a very short time to Him, and vice versa. Genesis was not written for God's benefit; He wrote it for our benefit, so He made the day 24 hours and spoke in terms that humans understand. All cultures get their time keeping of days, weeks, years and seasons, as well as "signs" from Genesis and creation. That creation week is the original of all weeks, and they are all 7- 24 hour days, in every nation that I know of.

The church fathers taught that the earth was under 6000 years old. Many of them also taught that creation week, though a literal 7 day week, was symbolic and prophetic that 6000 years of human history would pass, and that the millennium would then be the 7th day of a thousand years of peace. Obviously, they did not apply the 1000 year standard to the first 7 days, otherwise the earth would have been 7000 years old after the first week of creation had past! The trend was to apply this standard to prophecy, not to history. None of the church fathers believed creation days were 1000 years each.

Was their reckoning of the millennium correct? I think most Western Christians over the past 5 centuries basically have agreed with it. We shall soon find out. Johannes Kepler, who formulated the laws of planetary motion, calculated a creation date of 3992 B.C.! That means the Millennium should arrive in 2009! That would be nice, but I wouldn't bank on it.

Blessings,

Dave
Reply
#25
Quote:We cannot know more than what scripture states about it. It was light, which produced the same effect as the sun, giving evening and morning for each of the days as the earth spun on its axis as it does now.

This light had to be localized in one point of space, facing only one side of earth at a given time. All the days had to be similar in length or they could not be categorized and numbered as time keeping devices, which is what days are, according to verse 14. The days, years and seasons, as well as signs (v. 14) are based on the sun, moon and stars, and should not be confused with each other. Since days four through seven had the sun to demarcate evening and morning, we must assume the light created on day one served the same function and that the earth's spin was at the same rate as on day four.

But God could have caused it to be otherwise Dave???God is not bound to our understanding of natural laws or Scripture interpreting???

Could there ever be or have been a time in the ???Evening??? where the Light is shining as bright as it is during the "Morning"?

Yes???

???It shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; the lights will diminish. It shall be one Day that is known to Yahweh, neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen that it will be light.??? Zech 14:6-7



I believe that this LIGHT mentioned here which is going to shine for eternity is the same LIGHT that shone before the universe was furnished with the trillions of stars, including our sun/star. I don't believe that it was a physical orb like the sun seen in our sky that God made on the 4th day???.

Notice that this LIGHT is called ???DAY??? by God in Genesis 1:5

That is this Light???s Name. This, which God brings forth and calls DAY, is LIGHT.

I believe we can know a lot about this LIGHT/DAY/STAR/SUN that is not only revealed in Genesis chapter one, but all through the rest of the Scriptures.

???And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having The Glory of God: and her Light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal???. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun???. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the Glory of God did lighten it, and The Lamb is The Light thereof.??? Rev 21:23 Rev 21:10-11 Rev 22:5

???The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but Yahweh shall be unto thee an Eternal Light, and thy God thy Glory. Thy Sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for Yahweh shall be your Everlasting Light?????? Isaiah 60:19-20

???For Yahweh God is a Sun and a shield: Yahweh will give grace and glory; no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.??? Ps 84:11

???But unto you that fear My Name shall The Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in His wings???.??? Mal 4:2

???The people that walked in darkness have seen a Great Light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath The Light shined.??? Isa 9:2

???Arise, shine; for thy Light is come, and The Glory of Yahweh is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but Yahweh shall arise upon thee, and His Glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy Light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.??? Isa 60:1-3

???Because of the tender mercy of our God, by which The Rising Sun will come to us from heaven to shine on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace." Luke 1:78-79

???There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of The Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was The True Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.??? John 1:6-9

???Then Yeshua spoke again unto them, saying, I am The Light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have The Light of Life.??? John 8:12

???I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is Day: the night cometh, when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am The Light of the world.??? John 9:4-5

???And we have the more sure prophetic Word, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until The Day dawns and The Morning Star arises in your hearts.??? 2 Pet 1:19

"I, Jesus, have sent My Angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star." Rev 22:16


This is that same Light that blinded Saul of Tarsus at noontime one day while traveling the road to Dumascus and which left him blind for three days....



Blessings,
Chuck
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#26
Shlama Akhi Chuck,

I won't argue about what the light was. We know God said, "Let there be light, and there was light. And God separated the light from the darkness, and God called the light Day and the darkness He called Night." I don't believe God created His Son or begot Him on the first day. I don't think you do either, so you should clarify your last statement, which sounds like you are saying Jesus is God's creation Whom He made on day one.

"God is Light", wrote John. That is not to say that the universe is filled with blinding physical light. The light God created was separated from the darkness, so the light created on day one was not omnipresent; otherwise it would have shone everywhere at all times and there would have been no darkness.

But this is not the subject of our original discussion. Do you see the reasonableness of 6- 24 hour days of creation, and the unreasonableness of long ages for each day?

Dave
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#27
Quote:I won't argue about what the light was.
Good, I won???t argue about it either???. lets allow the Scriptures to interpret themselves to our minds through the Holy Spirit who leads us into all Truth???.

Quote:We know God said, "Let there be light, and there was light. And God separated the light from the darkness, and God called the light Day and the darkness He called Night." I don't believe God created His Son or begot Him on the first day. I don't think you do either, so you should clarify your last statement, which sounds like you are saying Jesus is God's creation Whom He made on day one.
Christ, the manifestation of God the Father was brought forth from The Father before the foundations of the Earth were laid???. And through Him and in Him God the Father created the Heaven and the Earth in the beginning??? He is Light from Light and God from God???.

He is spoken of here in a wonderful way???

"Yahweh brought Me forth as the first of His works, before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.

When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the Earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.

I was there when He set the Heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the Earth.

Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind." Proverbs 8:22-31


Christ is the manifestation of both the Wisdom and Power of God.

??????Christ The Power of God, and The Wisdom of God.??? 1 Corinthians 1:24


Who is speaking here in this verse below?

???Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: ?????? Matt 23:34

It was The Wisdom of God speaking???.

"For this reason also The Wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, Luke 11:49


Quote:"God is Light", wrote John. That is not to say that the universe is filled with blinding physical light. The light God created was separated from the darkness, so the light created on day one was not omnipresent; otherwise it would have shone everywhere at all times and there would have been no darkness.
When God wills???. He manifests Himself as physical Light and that Light shines on the Earth???. It does not say that God created Light on the first day???. God said: Hayah Owr! -Light be! This statement is more along the lines of a command for Light to come forth and appear upon the scene???

Quote:But this is not the subject of our original discussion. Do you see the reasonableness of 6 24-hour days of creation, and the unreasonableness of long ages for each day?
I see problems with both interpretations. Perhaps less so with the six literal 24-hour days??? God could have made everything come into existence in 144 hours if He wanted to???and that number 144 pops up other places in the Scriptures in neat ways???so it very well could be the case. Though it could have been otherwise???

What I have been exploring more deeply here is that it seems to state that the Heaven and the Earth were Created ???In the beginning??? and that they were created unfurnished???. it was dark in the universe, and the Earth was hanging in this absence of Light darkness???no Light shinning???. The Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the watery depths???while this state existed.

And then God spoke and said: Let Light Be!

Then begins the work of fashioning and forming the Heavens and the Earth that is already created and begins the filling of the empty space and lifeless Earth that was created in the beginning???


Notice above there in the proverbs verse where it says at the start of the passage...."I was appointed from Eternity, from the Beginning, before the World began."

From Eternity, from the Beginning....before the World began.....

Consider these related verses...

And, Thou, Lord, in the Beginning hast laid the foundation of the Earth; ....Heb 1:10

In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the Beginning with God. John 1:1-2

In the Beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth. Gen 1:1


It could be that the terms "From Eternity" "from the Beginning" "In the Beginning" and "Before the World began" simply means: During Eternity, before time as we have it now on Earth started ticking off it's counting on....day one, day two, day three.....and so on.


I think your position goes like this right....that the Earth and the vacuum of space it hangs and spins in was created in about 12 hours during the evening of day one, evening starting the 24-hour day off....or do you say that they were created in an instant and lay in darkness for about that long until God said Let Light be????



-Chuck
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#28
Shlama Chuck,

I strongly believe that God created everything He made, instantaneously, but separately, on each day described. It says nowhere that He took a day to create plants, another day to create or make animals, etc..

As to Christ being brought forth in the beginning, you yourself quote Proverbs 8, which declares that Wisdom "was brought forth before the world began, before He made the Earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world." But the world (Owlam) had already begun in Genesis 1:3 , when He brought forth light.

Quote:God said: Hayah Owr! -Light be! This statement is more along the lines of a command for Light to come forth and appear upon the scene???

"Hayah" is used to command the firmament into existence and also the stars, sun and moon. Does that mean they already existed and were told to appear?
Besides, how can light exist and not shine? I agree that Yeshua is God of God and Light of Light, but I cannot believe He is the light brought forth in Genesis 1:3. Genesis 1:3 is describing events in time- Day one, after Heaven and earth were already created, hence the light is a temporal creation, not eternal Deity.

"Hayah" means, "exist", "be". If The Light is Christ, He is being created here. The Light is being brought into existence. You can't have it both ways.This smacks of Gnosticism to me.

No, Yeshua is not the owr light of Genesis 1:3 :"wamar Elohim hayah owr- And God said, let light exist!"".. Yeshua is Elohim -"God", who commanded the light to shine out of darkness. You are making Him the object of the sentence and command; I believe scripture states that He is the subject.

Of The Messiah, it is written:
Quote:and by him was created every thing that is in heaven and on earth, all that is seen and all that is unseen, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or sovereignties; every thing was through him, and was created by him:
;
Colossians 1:16

"Elohim" in the Old Testament refers to the Godhead, and is always plural, referring properly to the three Persons :The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. God The Son cannot be separated from God His Father in any action or statement attributed to "Elohim". They are "Echad Elohim"- "One God".

I agree that Yeshua is The Light of the world and the brightness of God's glory. That does not mean He is the light of Gen. 1:3 any more than He is every light from every lit match ever struck. He is uncreated Eternal Light, as is Abba and Rukha d'Qoodsha. The translation you quote has him
Quote:"the first of His works",
which makes Him a mere creature. I strongly object to that translation and doctrine. If you believe He is Yahweh, you cannot believe He is "the first of His works."
"All things were made (properly, "existed", in Aramaic) by His hand, and without Him nothing exists that exists." John 1:3
If He were a created being, He would have had to create Himself, which is an absurdity.

Begotten-yes; Made- never!

I think perhaps Proverbs 8 has been misconstrued by some to teach that The Christ is the highest creature. Yes, He is The Wisdom of God, but can you conceive of a God before He had Wisdom? It is a contradiction and a chaotic notion.As long as God has been God, logically, He has had a Son Who is His Wisdom, Power and Righteousness!

There, after I said I would not argue about what the light of Gen. 1:3 is , I have argued for what it is not. It is not The LORD Messiah!

Peace and Grace,

Dave
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#29
It is absolute truth that the Son of God was Begotten and not Made???Begotten from His Father as Light from Light, Spirit from Spirit???He is not a mere creature of nor a creation by God outside of God???. as the 1st Adam was.

God brought forth His Son as His Wisdom and Power ???In the Beginning??? or During Eternity???before anything of this Universe of God???s creation existed???

Whether the Son of God, as Light from Light is this Light that began to shine upon the Creation on the 1st day at God???s command I am not certain???

You have said that it must be some surrogate pre-sun creation that functioned as a temporary light???

I say???it could have been. And would then wonder what became of this Light on and after the 4th day when the Earth???s sun was created and took this Light???s purpose away???


You said:

Quote:???I strongly believe that God created everything He made, instantaneously, but separately, on each day described. It says nowhere that He took a day to create plants, another day to create or make animals, etc..???

But if you look close it does say that God formed the Man and the Animals from the Earth and that He caused the Plant life to grow up out of the Earth???and lets not forget that God "built" the Woman from one of the Man???s ribs while he was under Devine sedation during the time of his surgury???and lets not forget that every animal that God formed from the ground He brought them all, each one to Adam so that Adam could name them all...oh, and God also planted a Garden for Adam to tend and dwell in...All these things happened instantaneously during one 24-hour day?

Or do you say that the Garden was not planted and the Animals were not brought to Adam to name, nor was Eve formed from Adams rib until after the 6 days were completed and the 7th day of God's rest was over...


You also said:

Quote:???Genesis 1:3 is describing events in time- Day one, after Heaven and earth were already created??????

So does that statement mean that we are in agreement that the Scripture declares that God created the Heaven and the Earth before the 1st day began and that it was during those subsequent ???events in time??? -the six days, which came ???after the Heaven and Earth were already created??? when God furnished the Heavens and the Earth?

Or did you mis-speak?



-Chuck
Reply
#30
Shlama Chuck,

So you acknowledge that MarYah Bar Alaha (Yahweh Son of God) is Elohim with The Father and The Spirit in Genesis 1:3?

Quote:So does that statement mean that we are in agreement that the Scripture declares that God created the Heaven and the Earth before the 1st day began
?

Absolutely not. That is not what I said. The Heavens (Space) and Earth were created on day one. The Heavens and Earth were empty at first. He created light after Heaven and Earth ("Let there be...")on day one. The animals were created on day five; Man was created on day six. Since we know He created animals on day five, we know that He did so also on day six, even though the word "Ashah"-"made" is used, not "bara"-"created", as it is on day 5 for the other animals in the sea, air and land , and for man on day 6. "He created all things", scripture says, so lets discard this notion that some things were "created" and other things , merely "made" out of other materials. All things, visible and invisible, were "created" by Yeshua Meshikha, God The Father and The Spirit of Holiness.
The plants were created, then, as were the stars, sun and moon and planets, etc., each on their respective days numbered in order in scripture. It does not say animals were created on day one and then formed on day five.It says they were created on day five, and so on.
I think you are making this out to be more difficult than it really is. If we come to scripture without all the baggage of man's theories and high sounding jargon about eons of geological evolution , Devonian period, Cretaceous, Jurassic, etc., over millions of years, we can get the clear uncomplicated message that a child can understand ("except you become as a little child...") and know that our God created by speaking a few words: "He commanded, and they were created."1 ?? Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights.
2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.
5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.
7 ?? Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps:
8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word:
9 Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars:
10 Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl:
11 Kings of the earth, and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth:
12 Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children:
13 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.
14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.

Genesis one tells us where creation came from, how it came and how long it took to come. Not bad for a passage of 31 verses, yes?

God created the universe by speaking and in six days it was done!

Simplicity! How I love it!

Dave
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