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My Beliefs About "Hell" And How I Got Them (Off Topic)
#1
I'm going to write this post, and I'm going to simply tell my story.

No one necessarily needs to believe it. However, it IS true.

Back around 1995 or so, I was spending quite a bit of time thinking about the Jewishness of 'Christianity', and this consequently, led me to think about The Shoah, or The Holocaust.

I especially wondered what happened to the men and women that fed The House of Israel into the gas chambers at Auschwitz and Dachu, and Bergen-Belsen.

I of course, thought that these evil people went to "hell" or Gehenna after their lives ended.

I still believe that.

Around that same time, I found a book called 'Four Views of Hell' by John Walvoord, (who believes in the Literal version of hell), Metaphorical, by William Crockett, Purgatorial, by Zachary Hayes, and Conditional by Clark Pinnock.

I had never even HEARD of Conditional Immortality before.

But out of these four views, it made far and away the most sense, at least to ME.

Clark Pinnock suggested another book about this Conditional View of Immortality called 'The Fire That Consumes' by Edward William Fudge.

Fudge is a Church of Christ Minister and wrote in the typical fashion of most Church of Christ literature, which is tedious and boring.

Then a few years ago I found another good book on this subject called 'Two Views of Hell', by Edward William Fudge, and Robert A. Peterson.

This was A DEBATE and it was much better than Fudge's other boring and rather tedious book, it was spirited and lively, and both men were kind and polite to each other, yet still strong with their respective points.

Although I was a member of Church of God (Seventh Day) for awhile, I never bought into their "soul sleep" idea, but I DID respect the idea that finally evil and totally unrepentant sinners WERE EXTINGUISHED by God.

They were NOT tortured in an eternal hell of fire and brimstone, but were FINALLY once and for all time, annihilated.

And while God and His Messiah would prefer that NO ONE perish, if someone is INSISTENT on persuing unrighteousness, certainly if they WANT to go to Gehenna, it's their free will to do EXACTLY THAT, and God WILL *NOT* STOP THEM!

And there The Second Death awaits them.

You know, NO ONE taught me this doctrine, I found it from my own research, and I believe it to be true.

I also find it to be Compassionate. I NEVER saw YHWH torture His enemies in the Tanakh, He simply ELIMANATED THEM.

This is exactly what Conditional Immortality teaches.

It wasn't until I got on the internet in 1999 or 2000, that I found out that there were actually OTHERS who believed this same teaching, in some fashion or another.

Since I don't believe in 'soul sleep' I don't worry about what Yeshua meant when He said "TODAY you'll be with me in Paradise".

In the P'shitta N.T. texts (NOR in the Greek N.T.) THERE WERE *NO COMMA'S* AS I UNDERSTAND IT.

So, I find this teaching comfortable, compassionate, and finally, JUST.

That EVIL PEOPLE (who are totally and completely UNREPENTANT) are destroyed body, mind, and soul, FOREVER!

This answered my original question about those who perpetuated The Shoah, or The Holocaust, upon The House of Israel.

And it answered it COMPLETELY.

Evil WILL BE DESTROYED.

Those who THINK that they are so cunning now, that they are more intelligent than YHWH Himself, they will be DESTROYED, completely, and FOREVER.

Now, I'll tell you straight up, that I'm NOT going to argue about this.

I told my story, and that's ALL that matters.

I hate crude and unending arguments.

But I enjoy story telling.

I hope that you enjoyed my story here.

Shlama, Albion
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#2
Shlama Albion,

You wrote:
Quote:"but I DID respect the idea that finally evil and totally unrepentant sinners WERE EXTINGUISHED by God."

But I enjoy story telling.

I hope that you enjoyed my story here.

How quaint! I too, love a good story, and you do spin some interesting stories.

Surely your God of annihilation is far more compassionate than The Savior of the world, who gives eternal life to all flesh, and I see now why such a universal Savior must necessarily be far more mean and angry than the one you believe in?

Your version of God destroys his enemies. Our Lord Yeshua taught us :
Quote:Love your enemies; and bless him that curseth you; and do good to him that hateth you; and pray for them that lead you in bonds, and that persecute you:
45 that ye may be the children of your Father that is in heaven, who causeth his sun to rise upon the good and upon the bad, and sendeth his rain upon the righteous and upon the unrighteous.

God does not annihilate his enemies. He loves them and forgives them.

Does that offend you?

I cannot make all my enemies friends. My powers are very limited. God can do all things and He will have all men repent and come to the knowledge of the truth. It is also written:"For this is good and acceptable before God our life-giver;
4 who would have all men live, and be converted to the knowledge of the truth."1 Tim. 2:4

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us???ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.2 Pet 3:9

God does not want anyone to perish. He does want all to repent. I believe in the will of God, not the will of man.

The God I know also destroys His enemies in the very best way imaginable.

The best way to destroy an enemy is to make him your friend.

The God Who does that must be infinitely superior to the childish and petulant being you claim to worship.

Yeshua did not die only to annihilate those souls for whom He gave His Divine and Eternal Life.

He died to give them Life, to seek and save that which is lost, even as the one lost lamb, for whose sake He would leave the 99 and seek it until He finds it, and brings it home on His shoulders rejoicing.

"Be not overcome by evil. Overcome evil with good." Rom. 12:21
Our Lord will certainly do that which He expects us to do.

He destroys every sinner with the power of His grace, love and the sword of The Spirit-His word, making him or her into a new creature in The Messiah.
He is so much better than our petty and carnal image of Who He is.

I can see the Greek god Zeus doing what you say God will do.

I cannot imagine Yeshua doing it.

He is so much greater than petulant and vindictive Zeus.

Dave
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#3
After going back and reading this whole dialogue with this man again, I'm left with these impressions.

I would NOT want him for a Pastor.

I would NOT want him to officiate at any wedding of my children.

I would NOT want him for a friend.

His ideas of Messiah and Salvation are warped.

It's obvious that he's NEVER met a human who HATES The Christ, as satan does.

Nor ANYONE who's been deeply involved in the occult.

I feel sorry for his parishioners, maybe what I feel is more like 'pity', for them really.

And his lack of spiritual discernment, and his (lack of) CARE for his fellow human beings, is truly frightening.

Albion
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#4
Dave,

Whether your Pit-bullish tenacity, WRT the topics over which you've been grappling with Albion of late, has been justified... or not, I agree with Al on this point: over all, you've exhibited a personality that's not what I'd personally characterize as 'especially conducive' to either friendship or leadership roles.

Constructively,

Peter
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#5
This thread, and others like it posted recently, could be the poster child of the "no-theological discussion" rule of the forum. <!-- sSad --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sad.gif" alt="Sad" title="Sad" /><!-- sSad -->
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#6
Dave, where in the hell do you get the idea that God does not punish his enemies? What about Sodom and Gamorrah, Pharoah and the chariots, and other countless passages where God swears REVENGE on his enemies and sinners. Do you think that by "eternal hellfire" he meant "eternal forgiveness"? No, its either one or the other. Now that I think about it, we truly are made in the image of God. Think about it, when we are angry and bitter, we seek revenge, such as he. And when people do wrong us, we rarely forgive, such as HE (the only difference being that he is WILLING, but the point is, he still doesnt). Remember, the road to salvation is very thin, meaning most people are NOT being forgiven or saved. Your apparent ideas of universalism, to me, no offense sir (because I respect you on so many levels), is absolutely absurd and there can't be any scriptural defense of it. <!-- sHuh --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt="Huh" title="Huh" /><!-- sHuh -->
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#7
Shlama Akhi Ryan,

You wrote:
Quote:Dave, where in the hell do you get the idea that God does not punish his enemies?

Where did I say God does not punish His enemies? I simply said He does not annihilate them, as Albion said He does. I also do not believe God punishes his enemies without stopping.

You also wrote:
Quote:we rarely forgive, such as HE (the only difference being that he is WILLING, but the point is, he still doesnt).

I cannot make sense of that comment. God forgives, that is, He is willing to forgive, but He doesn't!!??

In your own words:"No, its either one or the other."

Eternal hellfire is not eternal forgiveness, nor did I ever say it was. I see a real difference, however, between the meaning of "eternal" and "everlasting".
According to Shlikha Paul, "eternal" means "timeless", or "apart from time",
Quote:2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal (Aramaic=d'zabna-"time related"); but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Eternal torment cannot be "everlasting". Everlasting is "infinite length of time". "Eternal" is without reference to time. The Aramaic NT does not countenance the notion that sinners will be punished without end. D'lalam (eternal) is defined as the opposite of the temporal (time related), so we cannot make eternity into an infinite amount of time; nor can we make an infinite amount of time into eternity. The two are opposite concepts. Eternity is timeless; No amount of piling up of time upon time, or multiplication of time, can transform time into eternity. There is no time in eternity.

In order to avoid the prohibition of theological discussion on the forum, we could focus simply on the meaning of the word "D'lalam" (eternal). I don't believe the "everlasting punishment" position has etymological a leg to stand on. It relies on eternity being infinite time. Paul wrote that it is the opposite- "timelessness". It is also "unseen". That is also the basic meaning of the Hebrew "owlam" -"hidden,secret".

It seems that Christians argue thus: "Punishment of sinners is just, therefore endless punishment is endless justice." More is better; infinitely more is infinitely better, and the more sinners suffer, the better.

And I am being told I am "unfriendly" and "lack the qualities of a leader".

I am not running for office here; I have not entered a popularity contest. I care nothing for winning such contests. I do care what people say about God and His Son. If I see He is being libelled by those who profess to love Him, I become angry and I say something about it. If I become an outcast in the process, I am content to be rejected for His Name's sake.

Notice too that Albion's responses are all ad hominem. He cannot answer the points I made. All he can do is say
Quote:I would NOT want him for a Pastor.

I would NOT want him to officiate at any wedding of my children.

I would NOT want him for a friend.

His ideas of Messiah and Salvation are warped.

Those are all interesting responses, but they are not arguments, simply emotional retorts.
Frankly, I think they say more about Albion than they do about me.

Blessings,

Dave
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#8
Shlama Akhi Ryan,

You wrote:
Quote:Dave, where in the hell do you get the idea that God does not punish his enemies?

Where did I say God does not punish His enemies? I simply said He does not annihilate them, as Albion said He does. I also do not believe God punishes his enemies without stopping.

You also wrote:
Quote:we rarely forgive, such as HE (the only difference being that he is WILLING, but the point is, he still doesnt).

I cannot make sense of that comment. God forgives, that is, He is willing to forgive, but He doesn't!!??

In your own words:"No, its either one or the other."

Eternal hellfire is not eternal forgiveness, nor did I ever say it was. I see a real difference, however, between the meaning of "eternal" and "everlasting".
According to Shlikha Paul, "eternal" means "timeless", or "apart from time",
Quote:2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal (Aramaic=d'zabna-"time related"); but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Eternal torment cannot be "everlasting". Everlasting is "infinite length of time". "Eternal" is without reference to time. The Aramaic NT does not countenance the notion that sinners will be punished without end. D'lalam (eternal) is defined as the opposite of the temporal (time related), so we cannot make eternity into an infinite amount of time; nor can we make an infinite amount of time into eternity. The two are opposite concepts. Eternity is timeless; No amount of piling up of time upon time, or multiplication of time, can transform time into eternity. There is no time in eternity.

In order to avoid the prohibition of theological discussion on the forum, we could focus simply on the meaning of the word "D'lalam" (eternal). I don't believe the "everlasting punishment" position has an etymological leg to stand on. It relies on eternity being infinite time. Paul wrote that it is the opposite- "timelessness". It is also "unseen". That is also the basic meaning of the Hebrew "owlam" -"hidden,secret".

It seems that Christians argue thus: "Punishment of sinners is just, therefore endless punishment is endless justice." More is better; infinitely more is infinitely better, and the more sinners suffer, the better.

And I am being told I am "unfriendly" and "lack the qualities of a leader".

I am not running for office here; I have not entered a popularity contest. I care nothing for winning such contests. I do care what people say about God and His Son. If I see He is being libelled by those who profess to love Him, I become angry and I say something about it. If I become an outcast in the process, I am content to be rejected for His Name's sake.

Notice too that Albion's responses are all ad hominem. He cannot answer the points I made. All he can do is say
Quote:I would NOT want him for a Pastor.

I would NOT want him to officiate at any wedding of my children.

I would NOT want him for a friend.

His ideas of Messiah and Salvation are warped.

Those are all interesting responses, but they are not arguments, simply emotional retorts.
Frankly, I think they say more about Albion than they do about me.

Blessings,

Dave
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#9
What you see here is Bauscher violating THE SPIRIT of what Akhan Paul ASKED FOR.

Dave Bauscher just USE'S ANOTHER tactic (another way) to attack ME.

To "technically" get around what Paul asked for.

One CANNOT speak RATIONALLY, with an UNRATIONAL PERSON, which is what Bauscher IS.

He's shown his REAL "true colors" to the whole list now. Paul included.

One should NOT be surprised, this is typical of Baptist attack politics.

You will remember that Bill Clinton ALSO claims to be "a Baptist".

Albion
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#10
C'MON GUYS.

People from around the world are coming to this site to learn about Aramaic and the Peshitta, and we are embarrassingly talking about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

What has this to do with the focus here?
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