02-10-2008, 08:02 PM
Shlama Akhi Dawid,
Have you read what I sent or not? When you do, there is plenty more to be had, I assure you. The religious rulings have HAPPENED. The due process is CONCLUDED. The confessions have been MADE. If I am guilty of anything it is assuming that you had the common knowledge of the rest of us. How many Netzari bodies need to rule on this before you think said rulings are fair? Or is being disfellowshipped a minor matter?
YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS: YOUR CONTENTION THAT I SPOKE IN ADVANCE OF THESE RELIGIOUS RULINGS IS PATENTLY FALSE. I SPOKE AFTER THESE THINGS, NOT JUST BECAUSE OF HIS GUILT BUT BECAUSE OF WHAT HE CONFESSED. I'VE SAID THIS SEVERAL TIMES AND YOU JUST SEEM TO GLIDE RIGHT PAST IT.
What I wrote about Trimm has been ruled on in the exact way you suggest it should have been. We have individually and collectively spoken with him privately first, then taken testimony for the record in front of elders and witnesses. If you say you rely on Netzari rabbinic courts to establish these things, I agree with you and tell you they have done this. What is unclear?
He has had not just his day in court but his DAYS in COURTS, both religious and civil. I have given you names, facts, dates and lists of rabbis and other Netzari leaders that you can talk to about their official and proper Torah based deliberations. Without your understanding that, you are in honestly no position to tell me I don't know what lashon hara is or how it is applied. You don't even know or can you elucidate to me what was not done that should have been in his case. YOU MAY DISAGREE OF COURSE WITH THESE RULINGS FOR WHATEVER REASON, BUT DON'T TELL ME THEY DID NOT HAPPEN BEFORE THIS.
I am writing about this months after the most recent ruling and years after the first one. I am also writing about things I have witnessed myself and can corroborate through others, which is my right. Out of the mouths of two witnesses shall every word be established--and this has been DONE!
You just don't seem willing to look at this. I have not "spread" anything. The decisons were publicly made and rendered long ago by several boards of rabbis. Most Netzarim know these facts well. The only reason you do not seem to is because you are over-compensating from a noble place which I respect but I find your application inconsistent. How can you sit there and first say "show me link/facts" and then when I do turn back around and say "I can't judge it, he didn't hurt me, I wasn't on the beit din"???? So if you don't get proof it's not sufficient and if you do get proof it is also not sufficient? You have not even commented on what I sent privately, or told me that you would read and think about it but you will say I am guilty of lashon hara instead, so who has the open mind really? Are you willing to investigate or are all of us just liars to you?
When I say "judge for yourself" I am only asking you to do what you say you are trying to do, keep an open mind. I am asking you to read the testimonies of those of us who were there for part or all of the drama that has unfolded. Or do you think that I and the rabbis I privately listed for you made it up? If you think we rushed to judgment, what is that belief based on? Certainly not on what I sent you. If you, again, say that I spoke in advance of said process, you are WRONG!
I repeat again--all too often Netzarim hide behind lashon hara fears to never speak out against wrongdoing, and that is not proper. Just look at the letters of Paul and John and others. They had no qualms condemning heresies in their assemblies and told us that we could judge those who are in those assemblies and leave YHWH to judge the world outside it. If you don't believe me, I suggest you read 1 Corinthians 5.
Put simply, you don't know what you are talking about.
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
Have you read what I sent or not? When you do, there is plenty more to be had, I assure you. The religious rulings have HAPPENED. The due process is CONCLUDED. The confessions have been MADE. If I am guilty of anything it is assuming that you had the common knowledge of the rest of us. How many Netzari bodies need to rule on this before you think said rulings are fair? Or is being disfellowshipped a minor matter?
YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS: YOUR CONTENTION THAT I SPOKE IN ADVANCE OF THESE RELIGIOUS RULINGS IS PATENTLY FALSE. I SPOKE AFTER THESE THINGS, NOT JUST BECAUSE OF HIS GUILT BUT BECAUSE OF WHAT HE CONFESSED. I'VE SAID THIS SEVERAL TIMES AND YOU JUST SEEM TO GLIDE RIGHT PAST IT.
What I wrote about Trimm has been ruled on in the exact way you suggest it should have been. We have individually and collectively spoken with him privately first, then taken testimony for the record in front of elders and witnesses. If you say you rely on Netzari rabbinic courts to establish these things, I agree with you and tell you they have done this. What is unclear?
He has had not just his day in court but his DAYS in COURTS, both religious and civil. I have given you names, facts, dates and lists of rabbis and other Netzari leaders that you can talk to about their official and proper Torah based deliberations. Without your understanding that, you are in honestly no position to tell me I don't know what lashon hara is or how it is applied. You don't even know or can you elucidate to me what was not done that should have been in his case. YOU MAY DISAGREE OF COURSE WITH THESE RULINGS FOR WHATEVER REASON, BUT DON'T TELL ME THEY DID NOT HAPPEN BEFORE THIS.
I am writing about this months after the most recent ruling and years after the first one. I am also writing about things I have witnessed myself and can corroborate through others, which is my right. Out of the mouths of two witnesses shall every word be established--and this has been DONE!
You just don't seem willing to look at this. I have not "spread" anything. The decisons were publicly made and rendered long ago by several boards of rabbis. Most Netzarim know these facts well. The only reason you do not seem to is because you are over-compensating from a noble place which I respect but I find your application inconsistent. How can you sit there and first say "show me link/facts" and then when I do turn back around and say "I can't judge it, he didn't hurt me, I wasn't on the beit din"???? So if you don't get proof it's not sufficient and if you do get proof it is also not sufficient? You have not even commented on what I sent privately, or told me that you would read and think about it but you will say I am guilty of lashon hara instead, so who has the open mind really? Are you willing to investigate or are all of us just liars to you?
When I say "judge for yourself" I am only asking you to do what you say you are trying to do, keep an open mind. I am asking you to read the testimonies of those of us who were there for part or all of the drama that has unfolded. Or do you think that I and the rabbis I privately listed for you made it up? If you think we rushed to judgment, what is that belief based on? Certainly not on what I sent you. If you, again, say that I spoke in advance of said process, you are WRONG!
I repeat again--all too often Netzarim hide behind lashon hara fears to never speak out against wrongdoing, and that is not proper. Just look at the letters of Paul and John and others. They had no qualms condemning heresies in their assemblies and told us that we could judge those who are in those assemblies and leave YHWH to judge the world outside it. If you don't believe me, I suggest you read 1 Corinthians 5.
Put simply, you don't know what you are talking about.
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth