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The Origin of the Western Five
#31
I said "we", not the first century believers. The words they preached were written for us to know and keep.
I repeat:
Quote:We would know nothing about salvation or The Holy Spirit without the Scriptures. We are saved by believing the Gospel message as written in the New Testament. We would know nothing about Yeshua without the scriptures.
You are sounding rather silly right now, Paul.

The gospel was not preserved orally. It was written for all time and eternity. The doctrine of the church was written; the life and work of Yeshua; the doctrine of The Holy Spirit was written by The Holy Spirit; "All scripture of The Spirit was written for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness."

Do you deny that?

Dave
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#32
Shlama Akhi,

I was not putting words in your mouth. I wrote: "Surely you do not believe any book of scripture is worthless." It was a sort of question to find what your position really is concerning scripture.

You wrote:
Quote:I've never believed there's anything magical or critical to our faith contained within the ink of a written word.
I do not subscribe to the magical
view of scripture. That is a far cry from "scripture critical to our faith".
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." How would the gospel be preached today if the Bible had never been written? Romans 10:17
How would we know anything about God or His Son? How would we be saved? How are we saved, but by hearing the written word preached?

Surely the COE preaches the scriptures to the people and people hear and are converted by faith, through The Holy Spirit's work in the heart and soul of the hearers. The Spirit authored the written word and He works through it to regenerate the spirit and soul with life eternal. The written word is essential to our faith; even Philemon, Jude and Revelation. If you can hear The Spirit's voice, you need to ask Him to speak to you about the origin and value of those books.
According to 2 Tim. 3:16, Philemon is profitable for instruction in righteousness. Just what part is for us to discover. I have found something miraculous in every one of the 27 books of The NT, but I cannot give that to you. You must find that yourself.

You wrote:
Quote:It is the CHURCH that decided upon the scriptures.
Divine authorship is not decided by the church. That is a fact independent of us. We are to receive what God has written if we have faith in Him.If we exclude a book He has written as scripture, we deny Him to that extent. That should frighten us.

It seems to me we would need watertight arguments for excluding a book from the canon to avoid the danger of
"refusing Him that speaks from heaven." Hebrews 12:25
ayms Nm Nme llmd Nm Nm latsn Na

If a book can be shown to be of first century, Apostolic, harmonious with received scripture, glorifies our Lord, edifies the saints and commends itself to the spiritual believers catholic as Divine, there is no good reason to exclude it from the collection of books received as Holy Scripture.

You and I are the church. Everyone who has faith in The Messiah and His Father is the church. We have as much authority to decide these things as any has.
We share One Lord, One faith, One Baptism, One Body, One Spirit and One Mind.

We agree in spirit and heart, even though our brains may differ. Thank God we are not saved by our brains. Few of us would agree on anything.

The people of any church should have the opportunity to decide for themselves by careful and prayerful consideration and reading if they believe a book that may be scripture is indeed scripture.

I can hardly say more on the matter, therefore I hope I will not.

Grace & Peace,

Dave
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#33
Shlama Akhi Dave,

Quote:The people of any church should have the opportunity to decide for themselves by careful and prayerful consideration and reading if they believe a book that may be scripture is indeed scripture.

They have, and there are several canons. That's the point. There isn't just one. You may feel your 27 book canon is the right one, like the author of the Murotanian canon thought his was the right one.

The point is, there's never been a consensus.

Quote:The gospel was not preserved orally. It was written for all time and eternity.

Of course it was preserved orally. When Meshikha first spoke those words, they weren't written down. When the authors of the Gospels were writing these books, it was after the fact. It was only later written down.

Quote:"All scripture of The Spirit was written for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness."

Do you deny that?

That's an even sillier question, of course not. Who would deny that? Again, I said that having a written record of our doctrines and our Lord's teachings was important in many ways. I only said that the Church, the Bride of Christ, came first, and is more important than scripture. That the Church existed without any book of the NT is undeniable. The Church decided what became scripture and what didn't make the cut.

What I do question is that Jude or Revelation is part of the "All scripture", that's where we differ. Our definition of "All scripture" excludes these books, which we call "Pious Books". That's because there are serious doubts as to the apostolic authorship of these books. We don't, and never have used the book of Revelation for doctrine, reproof, correction, or instruction in righteousness.

I respect your zeal, but why attack a straw man all the time, Akhi? Here's another example: I say "Revelation isn't scripture", and you come back with "But Paul said ALL scripture...."

OK Dave, Paul said "All Scripture", I grant you that - now give me Paul's list. He didn't leave one, did he? He would have helped us a whole lot if he had.

By "All scripture", was he aware of Revelation that hadn't been penned yet?

Look, we've always held to a 22-book canon, the matter was settled very early on.

Right now, in Africa there's someone in an Ethiopian church wondering why you don't consider Clement as part of "All scripture". Someone in Ethiopia right now is probably thinking that you, Rev. David Bauscher, are depriving your congregation of Divine Wisdom and benefit by not allowing them to recognize Clement as inspired and canonical.

I hope you can see now what I'm getting at.

sheesh. <!-- s:rockedover: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/rockdover.gif" alt=":rockedover:" title="Rocked Over" /><!-- s:rockedover: -->
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#34
Shlama Akhi,

Thank you for your patience and long responses.

I think we are misunderstanding each other. I am not concerned right now with convincing you that Revelation is inspired. You will be thinking about that for years, no doubt.
What concerns me now is your statement above concerning this that I wrote:
Quote:We would know nothing about salvation or The Holy Spirit without the Scriptures. We are saved by believing the Gospel message as written in the New Testament. We would know nothing about Yeshua without the scriptures.
to which you responded:
Quote:Akhi Dave, none of the above is true.....at all. None of it.

I cannot believe you said that. It blows my mind that you said that.

You seem to think I was talking about the first century believers. I don't know why you would assume that.

You responded to another statement of mine:
I said-
Quote:The gospel was not preserved orally. It was written for all time and eternity.
You said:
Quote:Of course it was preserved orally. When Meshikha first spoke those words, they weren't written down. When the authors of the Gospels were writing these books, it was after the fact. It was only later written down.


You again assume I am talking about how the first century Apostles received the Gospel. I am referring to how we receive the gospel today, and how everyone living from then till now has received it, and how everyone from now till the end of time will receive it.

Is this a basic cultural difference between us? Is there a barrier here that is not allowing our words to pass through?

Dave
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#35
I don't think it's a cultural barrier at all, Akh. It's a very basic difference in our respective Christian traditions.

In our tradition, the scriptures are a written record of the Faith already received from the Apostles in the 1st century. In other words, before the books arrived and became settled into a canon in its present form, the Faith already existed. The Church was already established, the Holy Spirit already was dwelling within the believers and this continues to this day. There is a continuity to our Faith which isn't reliant on a written account.

In your tradition, the scriptures seem to be the source of the Faith.

To someone like me, the following statement is startling:

Quote:We would know nothing about Yeshua without the scriptures.

Perhaps I would better relate to that statement if I were an aboriginal in the Outback a few centuries ago, and truly my first meeting with Yeshua was through a written account I've never heard of before.

Incidentally, neither of my parents were literate in Aramaic or in English. Nevertheless, before I could read either Aramaic or English, they taught me all about Him, as did their parents before them and so forth and so on, going back to the 1st century.

To say that we wouldn't know anything about Yeshua, Salvation, etc. were it not for the written accounts left behind by the apostles and their disciples highlights a fundamental difference we have about the meaning of the word "Church" and what happened at Pentecost.

And we do have the utmost love and respect for the written account, which we kiss when lifted from the altar to be read before the assembly.

If writing had never been invented, the Holy Spirit would not have been limited in His ability to dwell within believers and teach them the Gospel message in their heart. Time and time again we read in historical records of communities of believers existing in parts of the world that never had a translation of the scriptures into their language, or that didn't have a written language at all, yet they are still counted among the believers.

That's really all I can say on the matter.
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#36
Shlama Akhi,

I think you may be hearing me saying that faith depends on a person's literacy. I don't believe that.
I believe a person can have no faith unless The Holy Spirit gives it to him directly. Without Him, we have no faith or knowledge of truth
or Yeshua. He gives us new birth and Eternal Life. He brings us into God's kingdom and glory. He makes us children of God with the saints in light.
He fills us with righteousness, peace and joy in the love of God.Without Him, we can do nothing, know nothing, have nothing.

I do not mean to diminish Him in any way. Of course, any child who can hear and understand truth can believe and know the truth of Yeshua and have eternal life.

I also know that The Spirit wrote the "scriptures which can make you wise for the Life in the faith of The Messiah". 2 Tim. 3:15
and that all scripture of The Spirit is profitable for doctrine,...."

All scripture can supply faith, but only by The Spirit. He must enlighten us and teach us. Yes, if we have no Bible, or are unable to read and have no one to teach us the truth, He can teach us without any means whatsoever. Yet our Lord has commissioned his church "to go and teach all nations to observe all things
He has taught you." The things He has taught us are recorded in scripture. Whoever taught you received the knowledge from someone who received what was written in scripture, either by reading or hearing from another who read it, or heard another who read..., etc. and back to all generations to the Apostles.

The Living Word and the written word work hand in hand. God has ordained it that way. The written word is essential to propagation of the faith. If we lose all
written records of the life death and burial of our Lord (which is almost impossible today), we would soon slip into another Dark Age of confusion, ignorance and hell.

Peace,

Dave
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#37
I'm glad we seem to agree Akhi, and have cleared up our misunderstandings. Scripture is for the benefit of the Faithful and is a great resource for all of us.

I leave you with this ancient Aramaic Acrostic (starting with successive letters of the alphabet) Hymn that is sung during every worship service. It is a very interesting hymn in that despite its brevity, the words convey the entire Gospel message necessary for the salvation of the soul. It is chanted by the entire assembly immediately before the reading from the Gospel.

Aleph

Aw dam'mhay'min (He who believes)
b'Awa w'Awra w'Rukha d'Qudha (in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
Taw Sawth Milleh (Come, listen to the words)
d'Masyan Paghrah (that strengthen the body)
w'Makhyan Naphsha (and give life to the soul)

Beth

Brah d'Alaha (the Son of God)
Hwa Akh Nasha Bith Bnai Nasha (became a man among the sons of men)
w'aw'Puqdaneh Shra la'Khtitha (and with his command loosened the sin)
Min Bnai Nasha (from the sons of men)

Gamel

Gazza d'Rukha (the treasures of the Spirit)
Pthakh Qudmaykon (open before you)
Mamla Hana (these words)
w'Amla Kuleh Khaye w'Tuweh Kthawa Hana (and this book are filled with life and blessings)

Daleth

Dayweh Arkin (the devils scatter)
w'Sheedee Napkin Min Dikhiltha (and the demons proceed in fear)
Ma d'Shameen Lah (when they hear)
l'Hade Miltha Makhyaneetha (this life-giving Word)

Heh

Hanu Mamle (these are the words)
d'En Shateen Leh (that if reject)
Khayeh Mayten (the living, they shall die)
Hanu Qala (this is the Voice)
d'En Shameen Leh (that if hear)
Meeteh Khayeen (the dead, they shall live)

Waw

Waleh d'Tedeon (it is necessary that you know)
d'Kulhon Ammeh (that all the peoples)
Beh MithParqin (through Him are saved)
w'Haymen w'Ashar (and believe and confess)
d'Khulhon Khtaheh (that all their sins)
Beh Mishtawqin (through Him are forgiven)

Zayin

Zarowa n'Paq (the Sower went out)
d'Khlap Zaraa (that instead of seed)
Nizrow Miltha (He should sow the Word)
Khlap Aaraa (instead of earth)
Qarbu Qdamhu Libbawatha (offer to Him your hearts)

Kheth

Khayeh w'Tuweh (Life and Blessings)
Khnana w'Rakhmeh (Forgiveness and Mercy)
Aithu Mamle (are His words)
w'Sawra l'Khaye (and the Hope of Eternal Life)
w'Khaye l'Meethe (and Eternal Life to the dead)
Aithu Qaleh (is His voice)

Teth

Tuwa l'Ayna (blessed is he)
d'Haymen Beh (who believes in Him)
w'Mashar Miltheh (and keeps his Word)
d'En Meeth Khayeh (for if he is dead, he shall live)
w'En Khay la n'Muth (and if he is living, he shall not die)
b'Sakhilwatheh (in his sins)

Yodh

Yikhidaya (the Singular)
Brah d'Alaha (the Son of God)
l'Alma Etha (came to the world)
l'Al Min Kyana (contrary to nature)
l'bar Min Eyada (without conception)
Denkha Min Bitultha (shone forth from the virgin)

Kaph

Kreehee Asee (the sick He healed)
w'Garbeh Dakke (the lepers He cleansed)
w'Dayweh Apeq (and devils he drove out)
w'Al Mawtha Zkha (and He submitted Himself to death)
w'Meeth w'Khaya w'Qam (and He died, and lived and rose again)
wal'Shmaya Sliq (and to Heaven He ascended)

Resh

Rukha Shaddar (the Spirit He sent)
l'Talmidow (to his Disciples)
w'Khaqem Ennon (and He enlightened them)
w'Al Arbaa Pinyan (and toward the four directions)
l'Am Sabbaru (that they should preach)
Shaddar Ennon (He sent them)

Hasha (Mattai, Marqus, Luqa, Yukhanan) (Now the Evangelist)
Metargim Aylen da'khza wa'Shma (interprets the things which he saw and heard)
Ayna Hakel d'Ethleh Edneh (he, therefore, who has ears)
d'Nishma Nishma (to hear, let him hear)
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#38
Shlama Paul,

This is very beautiful. Thank you for sharing this.

It is very similar to a prayer my family says before reading from the Gospel, called "targama d'karozuta". There is a lot of symbolism in this ancient prayer with the preparation of the bread, candles and other items on the table. It is also presented in an acrostic.

Head of family says, Stand at attention. Be prepared to hear the holy Gospel. (all stand at the table)

1. You who believe in MarYah, the Being, the Cause and the Head, stand ready to hear the divine mysteries.

2. The eternal Son of God, the Word of the Father, put on [or, clothed Himself with] a body of flesh and was manifested in the world to make all things new and for the salvation of the sons of men.

3. He perfected all righteousness both spirit and flesh, and the Holy One came to be baptized by Yukhanan.

4. The Spirit led Him to fight and struggle in the quiet wilderness and made Him to war during His fast and He vanquished the evil one.

5. Then He began to perform miraculous works among the poor people, restoring the sick and healing the diseases of the body and soul, bringing life

6. And after all His work He came to suffering and perfected the mystery of salvation of our lives and suffered a hallowed death.

7. He vanquished the evil one and death and rose again not suffering; His resurrection sealed the hope of the resurrection of the bodies of the sons of men.

8. His witnesses consisted of His Apostles clothed with holiness recounting how they had seen Him and touch Him and heard His holy voice and how He had eaten of the honey.

9. The Mount of Olives was their appointed place on the Thursday when the Way of the Highest was opened for His Ascension.

10. He gave a blessing lifting up His stainless hands over the Apostles and over the multitide on the day of His Ascension.

11. An imperishable chariot of fire held Him and the King rode within it, lead by horses.

12. The sky separated before the Apostles and before the sun when He was ascending to Him that sent Him in a visible ascension.

13. The angels in all their orders cried Holy and celebrated the King in procession as He was entering the palace where no feet [or undefiled thing] had ever entered.

14. The spirits came down to comfort those of sad heart with voices of joy and reassurance.

15. The message to you of this Yeshua who is now ascended, thus He shall come at the end and evening of the world.

16. The High Priest entered the great place of dwelling of the Holy Heights to exercise His priesthood for all the sons of men who cry out in pain.

17. The King returned to the palace in His Kingdom with the cloak which He took of us and put His enemeis as a footstool under His feet.

18. The express image of the Person, the Temple of the Word, without separation, is now sitting on His throne and all creation serves His will [or, bows to Him; or, must submit to His will]

19. Armies of bright and flaming spirits stood to minister to Meshikha the King without end.

20. Their head Mar Gabriel was servant to the testaments and ministers forever.

21. Heaven and earth are held and subdued beneath His great power and are written and included in a a deed of love under His great Name.

22. Mar [Mattai, Markos, Lukas, Yukhanan] has written an account of the Ascension; turn your ears to truly hear His Word with one mind.

This is then followed by the first few words of each of the 22 lines of text above:

Stand at attention. Be prepared to hear the holy Gospel.

1. O you who believe in MarYah

2. The eternal Son of God

3. He perfected all righteousness

4. The Spirit led Him

5. Then He began to perform miraculous works

6. And after all His work

7. He vanquished the evil one and death and rose again not suffering

8. His witnesses consisted of His Apostles

9. The Mount of Olives was their appointed place

10. He gave a blessing lifting up His stainless hands

11. [In] an imperishable chariot of fire

12. The sky separated before the Apostles

13. The angels in all their orders

14. The spirits came down

15. [With] the message of Yeshua

16. The High Priest entered the great place

17. The King returned to the palace in His Kingdom

18. The express image of the Person, the Temple of the Word

19. Armies of bright and flaming spirits

20. Their head Mar Gabriel

21. Heaven and earth are held and subdued

22. Mar [Mattai, Markos, Lukas, Yukhanan]

(followed with the reading from the Gospel)
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#39
Shlama Akhay,

Since you both have made a contribution to a faith statement, I feel compelled to make one which Paul's hymn brought to mind:


Quote:Heaven???s Gates

Heaven???s gates, Heaven waits, soon to open wide
Then the strife mortal life holds will all subside
Grace and peace, love???s increase, over all prevail
All are one in The Son, Whom all angels hail

Then shall rest all the blest, safe in Jesus love
God is light, all is right, in our home above

Death and Hell heard the knell of the very end
When The Lamb, Son of Man, did to Hell descend
At the cross, Satan lost all his boasted claim
Devils flee, even he, in Christ Jesus??? Name

Christ is raised, God be praised, to the highest height
On the throne, LORD alone, reigns salvation???s might

O??? my Lord, loved, adored, worthy of man???s all
May all men enter in; let them hear the call
You have won; it is done. Sin is washed away
You have bled. Death is dead. Night is turned to day.

Now You live, and You give Your own life to men
Take Your reign; end the pain. Let earth be born again
Yours Truly

I think we agree on "the faith once delivered to the saints". (Jude 1:3)

Haymnutha aytha d'khad zawan ashthalmath l'qdysha


Thank you, gentlemen.

Dave
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#40
January 21, 2008

Dear Dave,

I believe that both intellect and inspiration are God-given, and that both are necessary for scriptural understanding. If only the Holy Spirit were necessary, there would be no need for a written scripture.

As for my comment about ???added books.??? Do you believe that the Epistle of Barnabas is an inspired New Testament book? How about the Shepherd of Hermas? Apparently some Greeks did. Both the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas are in the New Testament of Codex Sinaiticus, 4th Century. I was NOT suggesting ???that whole books were added to the canon by men which do not belong there....??? I was referring to books that are not part of the canon that are found in some Greek New Testament manuscripts. These open the door to questioning the nature of the other books in the Greek New Testament documents.

As for the Western five, I am willing to consider the possibility they were inspired in their original autographs, even though uncertainties exist. I appreciate the John Gwynn references, and quotes. I can see that they are very important.

The"Pericope de adultera" are absent in Codex Vaticanus, 4th Century and in Codex Sinaiticus, 4th Century, but present in Codex Alexandrinus, 5th Century. This indicates that somebody other than John added it in the 5th Century. This suggests that it was added to the Peshitto after the 4th Century.

The other important issue relates to your position on the 22 books of the Peshitta. If they are the true and original text of those books, then the Peshitto text that you consider to be perfect (based on your ???Bible code??? beliefs) actually has some small errors (in addition to the Pericope de adultera). Paul Younan had to make CORRECTIONS to the Peshitto text to produce the Peshitta text found at this peshitta.org web site. Hence, those 22 books in the Peshitto do not agree exactly with the Peshitta.

Therefore, to accept your view that the Peshitto text that you used to investigated ???Bible codes??? is the true text, you must hold to the position that the Peshitta is somewhat flawed. The Peshitta is more likely to be correct than the possibly altered Peshitto version of the same 22 books.

As for your comments about your so-called ???Bible codes???, you wrote: ???You make it sound like I tried millions of configurations of the NT until I got one that worked, and that is simply false.???

I did NOT say that you ???tried millions of configurations of the NT until...??? you ???...got one that worked.??? I know you only used the one version of the Peshitto that you happened to get with your ???Bible codes??? computer program, but you shuffled the letters into many thousands of patterns electronically using thousands of equal letter spacings forward and backward looking for those so-called ???codes???. What I have repeatedly said is that you have found nothing miraculous, nothing that "worked"! In addition, your premises are wrong.

In your ???divine names??? study you found nothing that conflicts with common sense. About half the ???divine names??? were found to be less frequent than the ideal average and about half were found to be more frequent. Overall, the frequencies of the 95 ???divine names??? are normally distributed as a Gaussian bell-shape curve among the thousands of equal letter spacings that you assembled but with a larger variance because the letters in the text are not randomly distributed. Take out a chapter from any book of your ???perfect text??? of the Peshitto and run your divine names test again. Your will get a very similar result.

Your few long ???codes??? are the result of searches seeded with key words. They are little more a curiosity among the many thousands of patterns that were available for you to evaluate.

I did NOT say that you ???tried millions of configurations of the NT until...??? you ???...got one that worked.??? Rather, you shuffled the letters into thousands of patterns electronically by using thousands of equal letter spacings looking for a mosaic combination that you liked but not knowing in advance what it was. This is little more than electronic Scrabble. The chance of finding something that you were not expecting is 100%.

Your long ???codes??? are nothing more than a curiosity and the divine names study is meaningless.

Your translation work is terrific. It is a shame to let your fascination with letter combinations affect your judgement about the nature of the New Testament text. I fear it will also affect your credibility among Bible scholars.

Blessings...

Otto
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#41
Rakhmi Otto,

I think we are making progress, you and I.

You wrote:
Quote:I believe that both intellect and inspiration are God-given, and that both are necessary for scriptural understanding. If only the Holy Spirit were necessary, there would be no need for a written scripture.
I couldn't agree more. That was my point in my last posts to you. We need The Holy Spirit's guidance and inspiration in deciding these matters, even as He is the One who gave the scriptures originally. I certainly was not advocating "checking our brains at the door". But human intellect can only get us so far. It cannot "unscrew the inscrutable". The Spirit of God must reveal spiritual things to our spirit; our spirit can then inform our brain. 1 Cor. 2:13,14

You also wrote:
Quote:As for the Western five, I am willing to consider the possibility they were inspired in their original autographs, even though uncertainties exist. I appreciate the John Gwynn references, and quotes. I can see that they are very important.

God bless you, my friend! I hope everyone who holds dogmatically to an exclusive 22 book canon (which the COE does not, judging from what Paul Younan has written) will do some research and recognize the radical distinction between The Harklean version and Gwynn's critical edition of the Western 5.I hope they will also suspend judgment on the matter and at least give those books the benefit of the doubt, as Paul does, by studying them and seeking the edification that may be obtained from them.

I cannot now go further into Bible codes at this time. It is too highly emotionally charged a topic to discuss calmly and rationally right now, I think.
You seem to have made up your mind in that area, so I am not going to even try to change it. Perhaps you will take it up at a later time and read other sources on the subject.
The best book I have read which addresses the issue historically and philosophically, not statistically, is Jeffrey Satinover's (M.D.) book,
Cracking The Bible Code. It is well worth reading and very enlightening, coming from a Jewish perspective and discussing ancient Jewish sages'
statements relating to coded information in The Bible, from the Middle Ages until modern times.

Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

Nebrak lak Alaha (God bless you),


Dave
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