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About George M. Lamsa and Rocco Errico
#1
Shlama,

A friend here asked me about George Lamsa, and Rocco Errico, Lamsa's student.

First, if you'd read this:

"I would suggest a great deal of care be taken--I sense that you already do this--in approaching the teachings of such as Mr. Errico. Those teachings are not subject to the discipline or correction of the Church or of recognized scholarship. There are many with a private agenda who utilize the P'shitta (which is generally unknown and inaccessible to the public) to build carreers--sometimes quite comfortable ones--and who mold the text to fit the agenda. I do not know if this applies to Mr. Errico, I do not know him and have not seen his work. Wariness is called for becuase Christology is at issue and Christology is the Great Tradition upon which orthodoxy stands or falls. ("Who do men say that I am?")"

This was from a personal letter from someone who used to be a Priest in the Assyrian Church of the East.

I AGREE with ALL of the above.

As to George Lamsa.

George Lamsa, I feel, did NOT believe in either the devil, or in demons.

This becomes apparent to anyone who reads his "Bible".

I think that this would have qualified him as "a heretic" in the very early First Century Jewish/Nazarene Yahad (I'm borrowing a Hebrew word here).

Yeshua could apparently see the devil, demons, and angels.

Lamsa's beliefs do NOT stack up well at all, when compared with what Yeshua believed.

I can, from personal experience, assure everyone that there IS A DEVIL, and there ARE DEMONS.

The devil 'recruits' people here on earth to work for him.

Most of these people don't believe in the devil either, but he doesn't seem to mind that, and use's them at his will and whim.

I would go so far, after what I've personally seen, to say that George Lamsa's "Bible" and his "New Testament" are spiritually dangerous, and should be avoided.

Ditto, for Rocco Errico. He is a New Ager to the MAX, and he does not believe in the devil, or demons (or angels either, apparently).

"Who do men say that I am?"

Do we believe in what Yeshua came to do FOR US, or NOT?

If we don't believe in the enemy of our souls, and of all Life here on earth, than neither could we believe in what Messiah came to do FOR US.

This, in my mind, clearly qualifies George Lamsa, AND Rocco Errico as "heretics".

That's a tough line, but there I stand.

I hope that this answers your questions.

Shlama, Albion
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#2
Shlama Albion,

Thanks for sharing this. I hope someday there will be a database of sorts of this kind of stuff so that those seeking reliable translations and teachers will have a qualified reference to check.

I watched a video yesterday that came out back in 2006 I think, where Rocco was basically saying that redemption is not in the Peshitta!

Thanks again.
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#3
Shlama Yaaqub,

People recruited by the devil will ALWAYS deny Messiah and His Redemption.

That doesn't surprise me at all about Rocco Errico.

It IS quite sad though.

Peace, Albion



yaaqub Wrote:Shlama Albion,

Thanks for sharing this. I hope someday there will be a database of sorts of this kind of stuff so that those seeking reliable translations and teachers will have a qualified reference to check.

I watched a video yesterday that came out back in 2006 I think, where Rocco was basically saying that redemption is not in the Peshitta!

Thanks again.
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#4
Lamsa's version of the Lord's prayer:

Quote:Our Father, who is throughout the universe

That says it all, doesn't it 100% New Age!

As for Rocco Errico, I came across a quote online in which he says that he doesn't believe that Jesus died to save us from sin, it went something like this:

Quote:Jesus didn't die for our sins, he died because of them, God didn't intend for Jesus to die, the people nailed him to the cross

Of course Isaiah 53 completely refutes this foolishness.

It's a pity that these heretics have used the Peshitta in an attempt to try and justify their claims (and profit from them), but we here at Peshitta.org know better than this. However the negative publicity has caused many who aren't familiar with the Peshitta to doubt it's integrity and reliability.
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#5
St. John, the Church where I serve, used to be a Protestant church that approached the CoE to become united with it (about 15 years ago). When the clergy were sent over, we found the church loaded with Lamsa bibles all over the pews. One of the first acts was to get rid of them all.

The CoE considers both Lamsa and Errico heretics.
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#6
WOW, Paul I did not know this!

That's way kool!

I would really like to hear this whole story.

Wasn't the Church of the East in Seattle, WA. the same sort of situation?

I remember reading that Mar Eshai Shimun did a kind of "outreach" to Americans that were interested in becoming members of the Assyrian Church of the East.

If I remember right, there were three churches around the USA that responded to this "outreach" (my word).

I would REALLY love to hear some more of this story!

Shlama, Albion




Paul Younan Wrote:St. John, the Church where I serve, used to be a Protestant church that approached the CoE to become united with it (about 15 years ago). When the clergy were sent over, we found the church loaded with Lamsa bibles all over the pews. One of the first acts was to get rid of them all.

The CoE considers both Lamsa and Errico heretics.
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#7
Christina Wrote:Lamsa's version of the Lord's prayer:

Quote:Our Father, who is throughout the universe

That says it all, doesn't it 100% New Age!

<!-- s:wow: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wow.gif" alt=":wow:" title="Wow" /><!-- s:wow: -->

Shlama,

While I'm not defending Lamsa in any way, I'm wondering if this is a revised edition of Lamsa's "translation" or if it's an older edition or something. The one I'm looking at says:

Quote:9 Therefore pray in this manner: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven so on earth. 11 Give us bread for our needs from day to day. 12 And forgive us our offences, as we have forgiven our offenders; 13 And do not let us enter into temptation, but deliver us from error. Because thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Just wondering about that. I know it's been published several times so I'm wondering if one says it one way and another some other way.
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#8
Yaaqub said about George M. Lamsa's New Testament:

"9 Therefore pray in this manner: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven so on earth. 11 Give us bread for our needs from day to day. 12 And forgive us our offences, as we have forgiven our offenders; 13 And do not let us enter into temptation, but deliver us from error. Because thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever. Amen."

Shlama Yaaqub,

I THINK that that quote is from his *1940 Edition* of his New Testament. This was his favorite version according to various written accounts of his fans (like Janet Magiera).

Hope that this helps.

Peace, Albion
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#9
Albion Wrote:Yaaqub said about George M. Lamsa's New Testament:

"9 Therefore pray in this manner: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven so on earth. 11 Give us bread for our needs from day to day. 12 And forgive us our offences, as we have forgiven our offenders; 13 And do not let us enter into temptation, but deliver us from error. Because thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever. Amen."

Shlama Yaaqub,

I THINK that that quote is from his *1940 Edition* of his New Testament. This was his favorite version according to various written accounts of his fans (like Janet Magiera).

Hope that this helps.

Peace, Albion

Shlama,

Thanks Albion. This is helpful.
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#10
Paul Younan Wrote:St. John, the Church where I serve, used to be a Protestant church that approached the CoE to become united with it (about 15 years ago). When the clergy were sent over, we found the church loaded with Lamsa bibles all over the pews. One of the first acts was to get rid of them all.

The CoE considers both Lamsa and Errico heretics.

Shlama Akhi Paul,

I have an idea! How about the COE purchase the rights to Lamsa's version from the Aramaic Bible Society, then revise it, I mean correct it to conform to COE & "orthodox" Christian doctrine (& modern English) & make it available (for free download/purchase/both) for Syriac Christians and everyone else! Turn something hererical into something that upholds the truth of the Christian faith!

Take a look at this free Bible to see what I mean:

http://www.orthodox-church.info/eob
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#11
Dear Christina,

I THINK (but I'm not certain) that Janet Magiera's organization 'Studylight.org' has the copyright's on Lamsa's writings.

Since they (Studylight) hold him in such high regard, I seriously doubt that they'd be willing to part with Lamsa's copyrights.

Christina listen, I really BELIEVE that Akhan Andrew (Gabriel Roth) is gonna give us the P'shitta New Covenant that we've all LOOKED FOR, for so long.

I COULD be wrong, but I don't think so.

If Andrew will only keep MARI/P.E.A.C.E. priced so 'normal' folks will be able to afford it.

He's packing so much information into this New Covenant that I worry about THAT, a little, and publishers are about making money, and are NOT about The Kingdom of Alaha, I feel.

But let's give Andrew a chance, come the next Passover, we'll know one way, or another, for sure.

But I've got a good feeling about Andrew's P'shitta NT, that I'm gonna TRUST, until it's proven that we should do otherwise!


Shlama, Albion
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#12
Albion Wrote:Dear Christina,

I THINK (but I'm not certain) that Janet Magiera's organization 'Studylight.org' has the copyright's on Lamsa's writings.

Since they (Studylight) hold him in such high regard, I seriously doubt that they'd be willing to part with Lamsa's copyrights.

As far as I know, The Aramaic Bible Society (which Lamsa founded) still holds the rights to Lamsa's version. Here is what R. C. Lataster wrote on his website for Lamsa's version:

Quote:With generous permission from the Aramaic Bible Society - August 2005. Please do not copy these documents as they are still under copyright.

NT:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.lamsabible.com/Lamsa%20Bible%20New%20Testament.htm">http://www.lamsabible.com/Lamsa%20Bible ... tament.htm</a><!-- m -->

OT:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.lamsabible.com/Lamsa%20Bible%20Old%20Testament.htm">http://www.lamsabible.com/Lamsa%20Bible ... tament.htm</a><!-- m -->

Quote:Christina listen, I really BELIEVE that Akhan Andrew (Gabriel Roth) is gonna give us the P'shitta New Covenant that we've all LOOKED FOR, for so long.

I COULD be wrong, but I don't think so.

If Andrew will only keep MARI/P.E.A.C.E. priced so 'normal' folks will be able to afford it.

He's packing so much information into this New Covenant that I worry about THAT, a little, and publishers are about making money, and are NOT about The Kingdom of Alaha, I feel.

But let's give Andrew a chance, come the next Passover, we'll know one way, or another, for sure.

But I've got a good feeling about Andrew's P'shitta NT, that I'm gonna TRUST, until it's proven that we should do otherwise!


Shlama, Albion

I hear you, and I can't wait for akhi Andrew's version - I will definately buy a copy (though I hope he will also realease it in downloadable format because shipping books to my country is very expensive).

But I wasn't only referring to Lamsa's NT nor suggesting a Peshitta version to rival akhi Andrew's upcomming MARI/P.E.A.C.E.

What I suggested to akhi Paul is an "official" English translation of the ENTIRE Peshitta Bible primarily for the Syriac Christian community (Maronite, Chaldean, Syrian Orthodox & COE) translated by Syriac Christians (as opposed to heretics). After all native Aramaic speakers have translated the Peshitta for non-Syriac Christians (eg: the team behind The Way International version) why not a translation for their own?

What I suggested was something like the new Eastern Orthodox Bible. This new Bible is a translation of the LXX & official Patriarchal NT of the Greek Orthodox Church. The English translation is a revision of Brenton's LXX & the World English Bible (both in the public domain). It was translated by EO Christians for EO Christians, which has a limited copyright, is in complete control of the EO community and is currently being reviewed & approved by EO Patriarchates. It has Greek transliterations, EO terminology, quotes from the Church Fathers (eg St. Basil & St. Augustine), liturgical readings & icons. It can be purchased at lulu.com or dowloaded from their site, download the pdf files to see what I mean:

http://www.orthodox-church.info/eob/download.asp.

Now imagine a similar Bible based on the Peshitta Tanakh & NT with Aramaic translitions, Syriac Christian terminology, quotes from Mar Ephraim & Mar Aphrahat, liturgical divisions & textual variants between the Greek NT & Peshitta NT, with the English translation revised from Lamsa's version (which should go into the public domain IMO) or translated fresh. Such a Bible would not only be suitable for English-speaking Syriac Christians & Churches but also introduce western Christianity to Syriac Christianity & the Peshitta, and will encourage unity in the Body of Messiah & the study of the Aramaic language.

Of course such a project would require considerable funds and if I was a milionaire, believe me I really would fund such a project. However nothing is impossible, we can pray to THE MASTER to open a door if it is His will. Another possible hurdle is that the Syriac Churches are not in communion with each other. The Maronites & Chaldeans are Catholic & in communion with Rome, the Syrian Orthodox Church is Myophysite, while the COE is independent. If they cannot come together to produce one "official" Syriac Christian Bible, they can do 3 editions instead (Eastern Catholic, Syrian Orthodox & COE). But as I said before, if it is God's will, it will happen.

Shlama,
Christina.
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#13
yaaqub Wrote:
Christina Wrote:Lamsa's version of the Lord's prayer:

Quote:Our Father, who is throughout the universe

That says it all, doesn't it 100% New Age!

<!-- s:wow: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wow.gif" alt=":wow:" title="Wow" /><!-- s:wow: -->

Shlama,

While I'm not defending Lamsa in any way, I'm wondering if this is a revised edition of Lamsa's "translation" or if it's an older edition or something. The one I'm looking at says:

Quote:9 Therefore pray in this manner: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven so on earth. 11 Give us bread for our needs from day to day. 12 And forgive us our offences, as we have forgiven our offenders; 13 And do not let us enter into temptation, but deliver us from error. Because thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Just wondering about that. I know it's been published several times so I'm wondering if one says it one way and another some other way.

Here's the full version of Lamsa's Lord's prayer I was refering to:

Quote:Our Father who is throughout the universe, Let your name be set apart.

Let your Kindom come.
Let your desire be, as in the universe, also on the Earth.

Give us bread for our necessities this day.
And free us from our offenses, as we have also freed our offenders.

And do not let us enter our temptation, but set us free from error.

Because your are the Kingdom, Power, and Glory from ages through ages.

Sealed in trust, faith, and truth.
Amen.

And here's the source:

http://www.aramaicbible.us/

I don't know which edition of the Lamsa Bible this New Age rendering is from.

Shlama.
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#14
Khati Christina,

That's been a long dream of mine as well. It would be a tremendous resource. However you may or may not be aware that the CoE has always been very resistant to translating the Peshitta into any other language, we haven't even made one in the vernacular (neo-Aramaic) that's spoken today, let alone English.

Back historically too, in China and the Islands of the Pacific these people were trained in Aramaic and mastered it, and then "targummed" in their local language for the benefit of the people.

I hate to say it, but when it comes to this issue the church is even stricter than Islam or Judaism, both of whom have sects that have sanctioned English translations for the benefit of the faithful.

That's why I'm kind of sticking with the Interlinear concept.
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#15
Paul Younan Wrote:Khati Christina,

That's been a long dream of mine as well. It would be a tremendous resource. However you may or may not be aware that the CoE has always been very resistant to translating the Peshitta into any other language, we haven't even made one in the vernacular (neo-Aramaic) that's spoken today, let alone English.

Back historically too, in China and the Islands of the Pacific these people were trained in Aramaic and mastered it, and then "targummed" in their local language for the benefit of the people.

I hate to say it, but when it comes to this issue the church is even stricter than Islam or Judaism, both of whom have sects that have sanctioned English translations for the benefit of the faithful.

That's why I'm kind of sticking with the Interlinear concept.

Shlama akhi Paul,

I was of aware that the COE is reluctant to translate the Peshitta into other languages but I don't know the reason why. I haven't found an explanation in their own words, can you enlighten me on this matter? I always want to hear an explanation first to avoid jumping to conclusions.

I see that the Interlinear concept does get around the issue without disrespecting the COE tradition, and you did mention that the trained ministers "targummed" in their local languages for the listeners. Well "targumming" doesn't only have be to oral does it? If the COE isn't willing to "translate" the Peshitta into Neo-Aramaic or English, etc. would they consider doing a bilingual edition with the Peshitta Tanakh & NT & a written targum of it?

Actually now that I think of it a targum of the Peshitta would be even better than a "literal translation", it would certainly be a unique to contribution to Bible scholarship. Native Aramaic speakers can explain the idioms, poetry, etc. better than any western Bible scholar. Besides even Yeshua & his Apostles "targummed" their Scriptures in their writings & sermons, so this should'nt conflict with COE tradition, IMO (but I could be wrong).

This is not to discredit others such as Yaaqub, Bauscher, Roth, or even your interlinear but I believe that the western Church does need to hear the Syriac Christian (including COE) perspective of the Scriptures, it's all about making the most reliable NT available to all, in whatever form, be it interlinear, literal translation or targum. And what about English-speaking Syriac Christians? Wouldn't it be better for them have a trustworthy English Targum of the Peshitta which is compiled and approved of by believers, their Priests & Patriarchates as opposed to turning to translations by heretics like Lamsa?

Think of the tremendous spiritual fruits the COE & the rest of Body of Messiah would reap from this! This would definately encourage interest in the study of the language of our Saviour, not to mention dialogue between Eastern & Western Christians, a road to repairing the severed ties between the Western & Eastern Church, and because the return of our Master is getting closer than ever before Church unity has never been more important than it is today.

Of course a Neo-Aramaic "targum" should be given priorty, then moving on to English, etc, etc.

Nothing is impossible, if it is God's will, He will open a door.
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