Facts about the "Hebrew Primacy" movement

[Dawid]

That's fine that you believe that. It's wonderful. But you have not given me any evidence. I don't mind this, but I don't really understand the point of it in the Nazarene section. Historically, it is quite clear that the sect called the N'tzarim by the church fathers are not related to the COE so closely as all that. It is made clear that they kept Shabbat, attended shul, and kept the Torah. (you can find all of this in Ephiphanius's Panarion 29) In the Talmud it is made clear that they kept observances such as the Ketubah, Yom Qippur, and others. I really don't think that this group can be associated with the COE too closely.

[*Albion*]

Dear David,

Have you ever seen the movie (the modern re-make) 'The Mummy'?

Remember all of those 'zombies' walking down the street with their brains gone and their arms outstretched chanting an Egyptian 'gods' name?

That's my take on MOST (but not entirely ALL) SDA's. lol <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/laugh.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laugh" /><!-- s:lol: -->

Ditto, for WWCOG people.

Have you ever read 'Truth Triumphant--The Church in the Wilderness' by Benjamin George Wilkinson Ph.D. ?

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.alibris.com/booksearch.detail?S=R&bid=9318159652&cm_mmc=shopcompare-_-base-_-aisbn-_-na">http://www.alibris.com/booksearch.detai ... aisbn-_-na</a><!-- m -->



Wilkinson got allowed literally to go into The Library of Congress vaults to research, and to write this book.

The Church of the East, at it's birth, DID all of these things that you mentioned below.

With the exception of attending Synagogue (shul).

I STRONGLY recommend that you read Wilkinson's book.

It's an eye opener.

And yes, it's true that The Assyrian Church of the East NO longer does these things, but at it's very early inception, it did them all but one (which I pointed out).

Clearly, the Nazarenes "migrated" into the Church of the East. History shows us this.

Check it out.

Shlama, Albion

That's fine that you believe that. It's wonderful. But you have not given me any evidence. I don't mind this, but I don't really understand the point of it in the Nazarene section. Historically, it is quite clear that the sect called the N'tzarim by the church fathers are not related to the COE so closely as all that. It is made clear that they kept Shabbat, attended shul, and kept the Torah. (you can find all of this in Ephiphanius's Panarion 29) In the Talmud it is made clear that they kept observances such as the Ketubah, Yom Qippur, and others. I really don't think that this group can be associated with the COE too closely.

[Dawid]

You haven't met enough SDAs.

I wouldn't read it. I hate reading books like that. All I could stand to use it for is the bibliography. Ancient texts interest me. Other peoples' opinions on ancient texts bore me.
Whether they did or not is irrelevant. They don't now. My observance is based on history, not on mutations. If the COE is not now what it was once, then we should not join the COE, we should be what it once was. If you suggest joining it to change it, my friend, if you board the wrong train it is no use running along the corridor in the opposite direction.

[*Albion*]

You can lead a horse to water, but you CAN'T MAKE HIM THINK!

"I wouldn't read it. I hate reading books like that. All I could stand to use it for is the bibliography. Ancient texts interest me. Other peoples' opinions on ancient texts bore me."

And secondly, who are YOU to suggest which "train" is WRONG for ANYONE ELSE to climb aboard?

Shlama, Albion

[Dawid]

You can lead a horse to water, but you CAN'T MAKE HIM THINK!

"I wouldn't read it. I hate reading books like that. All I could stand to use it for is the bibliography. Ancient texts interest me. Other peoples' opinions on ancient texts bore me."

And secondly, who are YOU to suggest which "train" is WRONG for ANYONE ELSE to climb aboard?

Shlama, Albion

I have been as patient as I am going to be. I have taken crap off of you and every one else on this website and I've had it. If you cannot be civil, then please refrain from speaking at all. If you have something constructive to add to this discussion, then please do so. If all you can do is hurl insults, then please do not inflict yourself on society at large. I am less than half your age and I am tired of trying to be polite to you and everyone else on this website who is in serious need of training in manners. I know that Sha'ul says that I should correct you like a father, but I have tried every way I know how to encourage people to be civil and to avoid lashon har'a and all I've gotten for my pains is a dressing down. I will not take it off of you or Yaaqub or Paul or anyone else again. This is not acceptable behaviour from a man of your age. I've seen six-year-olds who are better behaved. Move to Texas. Down here we still raise our children right.

Who am I? I am cosmic dust. Klum. But there is only one right train. You know that as well as I do.

[yaaqub]

I will not take it off of you or Yaaqub or Paul or anyone else again.

<!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt="" title="Huh" /><!-- s --> Huh? Dawid, if I offended you I apologize. It was purely unintentional. I don't know who you are other than what I know of your personal opinions on this site. I think you might have taken something I said (probably in this thread) as either being wrong against you or loshon ha'ra.

There's no reason why we all can't have a mature conversation without getting angry at one another. We each bring to this forum a different aspect of our beliefs or culture and we have to learn how to respect that in each other.

Anyway, peace already.

[Dawid]

I will not take it off of you or Yaaqub or Paul or anyone else again.

<!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt="" title="Huh" /><!-- s --> Huh? Dawid, if I offended you I apologize. It was purely unintentional. I don't know who you are other than what I know of your personal opinions on this site. I think you might have taken something I said (probably in this thread) as either being wrong against you or loshon ha'ra.

There's no reason why we all can't have a mature conversation without getting angry at one another. We each bring to this forum a different aspect of our beliefs or culture and we have to learn how to respect that in each other.

Anyway, peace already.

My only objection to you is that you have continued to attack men rather than arguments. If you have an objection to Trimm's scholarship, or to Moseley's opinions that's fine. So do I. But attacking the men themselves is the ad homonym fallacy, and possibly lashon hara'a.
I have tried to remain civil. I really have. But I can only handle so much. I've just been mocked for the dozenth time on here, my grandfather just cussed me out, my sister dissed me, and to top it all off the Cowboys just lost. (believe me, in Texas, the last one is a major tragedy.) I can't take any more. And I won't take any more.

[Paul Younan]

Everyone, let's please refrain from personal attacks. I hold the all-powerful administrator "delete" power, which I hate to use but will if need be. Please re-read the "Rules of the Forum" in the General forum and re-familiarize yourselves with the code of conduct.

I'm NOT Assyrian. Only by my desire am I in any way........Assyrian.

I'm convinced that the Blessed Apostles brought the True Faith in Messiah to the COE, as well as the Peshitta NT.

I'm touched to the very center of my heart by the Assyrian COE.

Akhi Albion - actually the major ethnic group in the CoE are Indians, if looking by pure numbers in today's Church. Actually ethnic Assyrians have always been a minority (albeit a historically significant part.)

My priest happens to be from a Sephardic Jewish lineage. In our parish there are African Americans, Indians, Germans, Hispanics, Assyrians and Arabs.....and plenty of just plain Americans. I probably forgot some groups.

The Church is "catholic" in the sense of its "Universal" nature - Meshikha came for all, and the CoE has always been "catholic".

It's only loosely called the "Assyrian" church in the same sense that the Latin rite is called "Roman" - it's the fact that the Petrine "seat" is in Mesopotamia, Babylon in particular. In that sense it's more geographically a "Chaldean" or "Babylonian" church in the sense that the Latin rite is a "Roman" church - how many "Romans" are actually in it?

[*Albion*]

Just one last thing here.

I lived in Texas (Sulphur Springs) from 2000 to 2002.

I want to say more, but I won't.

My hometown is in the lovely green Arkansas Ozark foothills, in a small, rather quaint college town, called 'Russellville'.

Go Hogs!

[Dawid]

Albion, if you have more to say, then say it. Better to get it out now than to let it build up until later on.

[gbausc]

Shlama Akhay,

Well, back to Hebrew primacy. It seems to me that the major problem facing Hebrew primacy is "Hebrew". There is no Hebrew NT aside from relatively modern translations. So "where's the beef?"

How can we hold to the notion that the Hebrew Tanakh was preserved intact and that the Hebrew New Covenant scriptures are almost entirely lost?

The only viable defence a Hebrew primacist could render is that Judean Aramaic was called "Hebrew" in the 1st century, and even through the fourth century AD and until today, Aramaeans refer to Judean Aramaic in Iraq & elsewhere (as Paul has related) as "Ebryth" -"Hebrew".

In that sense, I am a Hebrew primacist, as is Paul Younan, Andrew Roth, Albion, Otto, Yaaqub, Ryan, etc..

Tishbokhta l'Alaha wal'Meshikha,

Dave

[Paul Younan]

The only viable defence a Hebrew primacist could render is that Judean Aramaic was called "Hebrew" in the 1st century, and even through the fourth century AD and until today, Aramaeans refer to Judean Aramaic in Iraq & elsewhere (as Paul has related) as "Ebryth" -"Hebrew".

In that sense, I am a Hebrew primacist, as is Paul Younan, Andrew Roth, Albion, Otto, Yaaqub, Ryan, etc..

Well said, Akhan Dave.

We are also Syriac Primacists, Chaldaic Primacists, Assyrian Primacists, Nabatean Primacists, Samaritan Primacists, Galilean Primacists, Melkite Primacists........and any-other-word-this-language-has-been-known-by-over-the-centuries-Primacists.

Never in my life have I seen one language referred to by so many different names. Whoever adopted Aramaic in the past took it and made it their own by adding their ethnic designation to it.

[Andrew Gabriel Roth]

Shlama all--

Just my two cents here. I also think this thread, just prior to Dave Bauscher nicely wrapping things up very well, has gotten off track. I don't like this tone for most of it though as it does absolutely nothing positive for the Nazarene-Messianic Way.

Let me state this clearly and for the record please: THERE IS NO AUTHENTIC HEBREW NT ANYWHWERE. You are talking about 3 frruadulent mss of Matthew that all:

1) Are no more ancient than the year 1300.
2) Were found in Western Europe (2 in Rome)
3) Have "innovations" (the famous addition of the generation in Matti 1 for example) that find NO ATTESTATION in Greek or Aramaic traditions.

I have said this before: I WOULD SOONER ACCEPT THE GREEK NT AS ORIGINAL BEFORE I WOULD ATTEMPT TO RECONSTRUCT, LET ALONE BELIEVE IN, A HEBREW NT COLLECTION.

The fact of the matter is, Hebrew was not "dead" in first century Israel, but it was surely not the predominant tongue of the common man there either. Otherwise, why do Aramaic targums? Aramaic is well represented in Hebrew Tanakh, not just in parts of Esther and Daniel but also a line in Genesis as well. Aramaic is the language of the Talmud, the Zohar, and many of Judaism's most prominent prayers from ancient times and into the Middle Ages (Kaddish, Amidah, etc). Knowing these things, there is no problem with having the NT originally revealed in the Aramaic language. In fact, it would have been hugely problematic given what we know about the language and history of that time if it had NOT been.

Archaeologically speaking the INSCRIPTIONS, whether we are talking Bar Kochba letters, notes on tombs/ossuaries, etc, have PREDOMIANTLY been in square script that we COMMONLY call "Hebrew". But SCRIPT and LANGUAGE are two different things, and I think the Church Fathers more or less interchanged/confused the two. Only Hegisippius seems to have gotten this correct with the "Syriac Gospels".

But ask any Rabbi what that "square Hebrew script" is and he will tell you--KTAV ASHURRI--"Assyrian Writing"--and those people were Aramaic speakers. Now I know Paul Younan would correct me and say that "Assyrian" is not a correct designation, but it is nonetheless like other unfortunate titles (Nestorian, Jacobite) part of the official records we draw from. Just like to some Native American tribes "Sioux" is an insult, and they would rather be called "Lakota".

My personal belief is that the Nazarene Jerusalem Canon was IDENTICAL to the Peshitta as preserved by the COE in Abdiabne and Babylon, EXCEPT for the latter's use of MARYAH instead of YHWH.

I get this belief from Mas Shabbath 116a, a tractate of the Talmud from about 125 CE that talks about rabbis in Jerusalem wanting to destroy Nazarene Gospels (but not the Ebionite versions apparently). They debated though whether they should burn the Nazarene (Nizrefe or Minnim, the latter an abbreviation for Mahaymna Y'shua Netzeret, or MYN)books or not. The problem was not that some loved the Nazarenes. Quite the opposite. The problem was that the Nazarenes had used the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) in their books, which technically made that part of the parchment sacred. The rabbis suggested that what they should do is, if it is not Shabbat, they may save a Nazarene book BUT cut out the occurences of YHWH and set them aside, then burn the rest "for the books of Minnim are like blank spaces" they said.

Now while I can't absolutely prove this, I believe the ancient record strongly suggests it because YAH was never under rabbinic ban--only YHWH. Otherwise Orthodox Jews, even today, would never utter Hallel-u-YAH, when we know in fact they did so 2000+ years ago and now. Therefore, it is not a huge step to go form that fact to the idea that MARYAH would not have been preserved by the rabbis in the Nazarene books should they have found them and consigned them to the fire.

So I am a "Hebrew Primacist" along the lines of how Bauscher said he was, but really I am an Aramaic Primacist for NT, because that is a fact passed down from my people to the Christian world.

And let me say this too again: I did warn Albion and others about Trimm and will continue to do so. His shoddy scholarship, ****edited by admin - sorry Akhi Andrew!***, admitted theft of him from others who paid for his worthless books, are a black mark on the movement. I caught him not even being able to tell when a letter began a word or if it was a proclitic, Aramaic 101. If Trimm is a Nazarene, then I am the Pope, and that dude stole my white yamulke! <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s -->

Flee from Trimm. Touch not the unclean thing.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

[yaaqub]

Shlama,

Thank you very much for this summation and additional insights you've offered in the thread.

Ya'aqub

Shlama all--

Just my two cents here. I also think this thread, just prior to Dave Bauscher nicely wrapping things up very well, has gotten off track. I don't like this tone for most of it though as it does absolutely nothing positive for the Nazarene-Messianic Way.

Let me state this clearly and for the record please: THERE IS NO AUTHENTIC HEBREW NT ANYWHWERE. You are talking about 3 frruadulent mss of Matthew that all:

1) Are no more ancient than the year 1300.
2) Were found in Western Europe (2 in Rome)
3) Have "innovations" (the famous addition of the generation in Matti 1 for example) that find NO ATTESTATION in Greek or Aramaic traditions.

I have said this before: I WOULD SOONER ACCEPT THE GREEK NT AS ORIGINAL BEFORE I WOULD ATTEMPT TO RECONSTRUCT, LET ALONE BELIEVE IN, A HEBREW NT COLLECTION.

The fact of the matter is, Hebrew was not "dead" in first century Israel, but it was surely not the predominant tongue of the common man there either. Otherwise, why do Aramaic targums? Aramaic is well represented in Hebrew Tanakh, not just in parts of Esther and Daniel but also a line in Genesis as well. Aramaic is the language of the Talmud, the Zohar, and many of Judaism's most prominent prayers from ancient times and into the Middle Ages (Kaddish, Amidah, etc). Knowing these things, there is no problem with having the NT originally revealed in the Aramaic language. In fact, it would have been hugely problematic given what we know about the language and history of that time if it had NOT been.

Archaeologically speaking the INSCRIPTIONS, whether we are talking Bar Kochba letters, notes on tombs/ossuaries, etc, have PREDOMIANTLY been in square script that we COMMONLY call "Hebrew". But SCRIPT and LANGUAGE are two different things, and I think the Church Fathers more or less interchanged/confused the two. Only Hegisippius seems to have gotten this correct with the "Syriac Gospels".

But ask any Rabbi what that "square Hebrew script" is and he will tell you--KTAV ASHURRI--"Assyrian Writing"--and those people were Aramaic speakers. Now I know Paul Younan would correct me and say that "Assyrian" is not a correct designation, but it is nonetheless like other unfortunate titles (Nestorian, Jacobite) part of the official records we draw from. Just like to some Native American tribes "Sioux" is an insult, and they would rather be called "Lakota".

My personal belief is that the Nazarene Jerusalem Canon was IDENTICAL to the Peshitta as preserved by the COE in Abdiabne and Babylon, EXCEPT for the latter's use of MARYAH instead of YHWH.

I get this belief from Mas Shabbath 116a, a tractate of the Talmud from about 125 CE that talks about rabbis in Jerusalem wanting to destroy Nazarene Gospels (but not the Ebionite versions apparently). They debated though whether they should burn the Nazarene (Nizrefe or Minnim, the latter an abbreviation for Mahaymna Y'shua Netzeret, or MYN)books or not. The problem was not that some loved the Nazarenes. Quite the opposite. The problem was that the Nazarenes had used the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) in their books, which technically made that part of the parchment sacred. The rabbis suggested that what they should do is, if it is not Shabbat, they may save a Nazarene book BUT cut out the occurences of YHWH and set them aside, then burn the rest "for the books of Minnim are like blank spaces" they said.

Now while I can't absolutely prove this, I believe the ancient record strongly suggests it because YAH was never under rabbinic ban--only YHWH. Otherwise Orthodox Jews, even today, would never utter Hallel-u-YAH, when we know in fact they did so 2000+ years ago and now. Therefore, it is not a huge step to go form that fact to the idea that MARYAH would not have been preserved by the rabbis in the Nazarene books should they have found them and consigned them to the fire.

So I am a "Hebrew Primacist" along the lines of how Bauscher said he was, but really I am an Aramaic Primacist for NT, because that is a fact passed down from my people to the Christian world.

And let me say this too again: I did warn Albion and others about Trimm and will continue to do so. His shoddy scholarship, ****edited by admin - sorry Akhi Andrew!***, admitted theft of him from others who paid for his worthless books, are a black mark on the movement. I caught him not even being able to tell when a letter began a word or if it was a proclitic, Aramaic 101. If Trimm is a Nazarene, then I am the Pope, and that dude stole my white yamulke! <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s -->

Flee from Trimm. Touch not the unclean thing.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

[ShyLady]

<!-- s:whaasup: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/whaasup.gif" alt=":whaasup:" title="Whaasup" /><!-- s:whaasup: --> I would like to thank all of y'all for the very infomative discussions I have read. All of it has been very interesting. I found this site while looking for Aramaic language, because that the language I've always heard was spoken by Yeshua. I am a new convert to the Messianic faith. I'm not Jewish, but grew up in the Baptist faith. Even so I have always been parshal to the Jewish ways, because Yeshua was Jewish and I always wanted to do the things he did, worship like he did. I am not able to understand everything on this site, but I have learned a lot on just this first visit. I take in what I am able to understand and let things I don't understand go. I just thought I'd drop off a coment to let y'all know this has been an interesting thread for me.