Facts about the "Hebrew Primacy" movement

[yaaqub]

The Ebionites did not believe that John the Baptist was the Messiah. You're confusing them with the...rats. I can't think of their name right now, but there is a group that follows John the Baptist. They're in Iraq to this day.

Mandeans/Mandaeans.

[Dawid]

The Ebionites did not believe that John the Baptist was the Messiah. You're confusing them with the...rats. I can't think of their name right now, but there is a group that follows John the Baptist. They're in Iraq to this day.

Mandeans/Mandaeans.

Yes, the Mandeans. Thanks, Yaaqub. It had slipped my mind.

[gbausc]

Shlama Akhi Dawid,

Are you contending that the Shem Tob ms. (15th century) is the original Gospel of Matthew? Are you contending that Luke & Acts were also written in Hebrew originally?

Burkta,

Dave

[yaaqub]

It's interesting that James Trimm uses that phrase since it is so obnoxious to the community of Meshikha. I never heard of Trimm until I got on the internet a couple of years ago. After reading some of his writings quoted on other sites today I feel the author has a chronic case of oral dysentery, knows nothing about Hebrew or Aramaic and he seems to be spamming all sorts of forums and online communities. He seems to be an insult to the Aramaic community and I can't believe I have seen "scholars" quoting him. <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt="" title="Huh" /><!-- s -->

[Dawid]

Shlama Akhi Dawid,

Are you contending that the Shem Tob ms. (15th century) is the original Gospel of Matthew? Are you contending that Luke & Acts were also written in Hebrew originally?

Burkta,

Dave

Mr. Bauscher, please read back over the history of the thread and it will clarify things for you.
Both of these threads seem to be doing nothing but cycling. I know that with the other thread Mr. Younan and I are right back where we started. I don't think I'm going to continue. I'd rather be getting somewhere than just be going in circles.

[*Albion*]

Shlama Yaaqub,

Have you ever seen the 'Hebrew-English Bible'???

If I typed it right, here is the title in Hebrew:


????????????????????


The New Testament in ENGLISH is the NKJV.

But the New Testament in HEBREW is a translation developed by the Messianic Jewish Community in Israel.

It was published in Israel, by The Bible Society in Israel, and Thomas Nelson Inc. in 1985.

I'll try to find a URL for it and post that too.

Anyway, I was wondering if you have ever seen this Bible?

Shlama, Albion

[yaaqub]

Shlama,

I have a couple of Hebrew English Bibles, Tanakh with Brith Chadashah, published together and separately by different companies. The Trinitarian Bible Society in England published some of these a while back. I have Christian David Ginsburg's and Salkinson's Hebrew translation of the Greek NT printed alongside the KJV. I also have a Franz Delitzsch Hebrew (also translated from Gree) with KJV. My Tanakh in Hebrew and English published by Trinitarian Bible Soc. in England is also KJV with the Masoretic Hebrew text.

The Bible Society in Israel also published a modern Hebrew NC but it is based on the Greek. They also publish the Hebrew translation of the Eastern Aramaic Peshitta, but that translation, I feel, needs some a little more improvement. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.biblesocietyinisrael.com/">http://www.biblesocietyinisrael.com/</a><!-- m -->

Ya'aqub

Shlama Yaaqub,

Have you ever seen the 'Hebrew-English Bible'???

If I typed it right, here is the title in Hebrew:


????????????????????


The New Testament in ENGLISH is the NKJV.

But the New Testament in HEBREW is a translation developed by the Messianic Jewish Community in Israel.

It was published in Israel, by The Bible Society in Israel, and Thomas Nelson Inc. in 1985.

I'll try to find a URL for it and post that too.

Anyway, I was wondering if you have ever seen this Bible?

Shlama, Albion

[gbausc]

Shalom Dawid, wherever you are,

You wrote:

I am not a Christian, for one thing. I am a member of an ancient sect of Judaism. I have spent much more time trying to convert Christians to Judaism than I have trying to convince other Jews that R. Yehoshu'a is the Mashiakh.

Your words befuddle me. Do you believe in the New Covenant scriptures and in Yeshua Natzri as Ha Meshiakh? If so, how can you be a member of Judaism? If you do not not believe in Yeshua, how is the Hebrew primacy issue important?

Dave Bauscher

[yaaqub]

Shlama,

Dave, I hope you don't mind me butting in on my own thread, but I wanted to ask a few questions just for clarification. What or who defines what Judaism is and who or what a Jew is? Is this left up to Christians to define it? or to a modern council of Orthodox rabbis?

My mother was Jewish. This makes me Jewish. My father was Assyrian. This makes me Assyrian. I practice both the faith of the CoE and the Judaism that my family practiced which had faith in Meshikha. Does this make me Christian or Jew? Does this mean that I practice Christianity or Judaism? If I believe in the Jewish Messiah and practice the Jewish faith that He taught from, does this make me a practitioner of Judaism or Greek Christianity?

I'm not trying to be rude with my questions.

I love this quote from Leo Trepp:

"It must be remembered that the new sect of Nazarenes, (the term Christians came later), standing under the leadership of Peter, strictly obeyed and practiced Jewish law and expected converts to do the same as a condition of their admission. They were distinguished only by their belief in Christ as the Messiah; this conviction did not place them out of the bounds of Judaism." (Judaism - Development and Life, second edition, by Leo Trepp; Duxbury Press, 1974).

And here's another interesting quote on the same subject:

"We should remember that the term 'Christian' is absent both from the Gospels and from the Pauline epistles, and that the disciples of Christ were first designated as Nazarenes...which remains their normal appellation in the Jewish circles of semitic tongue (the Christians applied this term exclusively to a Jewish-Christian sect).... The pre-Christian [Nazarenes] were conspicuous for their very characteristic peculiarities. They were Jews by race. According to Epiphanius, they dwelt in Galtides, Basanitides, and the other regions along the Jordan. They practiced circumcision, observed the sabbath and the other feasts of the Jews, and recognized the fathers mentioned in the Pentateuch as representatives of true religion... Finally, while keeping all the observances of the Jews, they refused to offer sacrifices or to eat the flesh of animals... Christianity at [the end of the first century] was no longer identical, in its doctrinal affirmations, with the faith of the first disciples." (Jewish Sects at the Time of Jesus, by Marcel Simon; Fortress Press, 1967).

[Dawid]

Shalom Dawid, wherever you are,

You wrote:

I am not a Christian, for one thing. I am a member of an ancient sect of Judaism. I have spent much more time trying to convert Christians to Judaism than I have trying to convince other Jews that R. Yehoshu'a is the Mashiakh.

Your words befuddle me. Do you believe in the New Covenant scriptures and in Yeshua Natzri as Ha Meshiakh? If so, how can you be a member of Judaism? If you do not not believe in Yeshua, how is the Hebrew primacy issue important?

Dave Bauscher

I'm sure as a revered scholar you are familliar with the works of Jerome and Epiphanius. Jerome, writing to Augustine in 404 C.E. referred to a sect called "miney" or "N'tzarim." He said that they were, in actuality, simply complete Jews. I do not believe that Yeshua HaN'tzari taught a different religion, but that he merely lead a sect of Judaism. Titling observant believers in R. Yehoshu'a as non-Jews is purely semantics. I've played the word game with Orthodox friends and won. Both Jerome and Epiphanius stated that we N'tzarim are not Christians. We are Jews. The Karaite scholar Ya'aqov 'al-Kirkasani also listed the N'tzarim among Jewish sects. The Samaritan chronicle kitab 'al-tarich also mentions Yeshua and the N'tzarim favorably, as members of the Israelite religion.
I've also been able to show on multiple occasions why I am not a Christian. My beliefs are not Christian, even though I happen to believe that R. Yeshua is Mashiakh.

Shalom,
Dawid

[*Albion*]

Shlama Yaaqub,

I'm interested in this quote:

"We should remember that the term 'Christian' is absent both from the Gospels and from the Pauline epistles, and that the disciples of Christ were first designated as Nazarenes...which remains their normal appellation in the Jewish circles of semitic tongue (the Christians applied this term exclusively to a Jewish-Christian sect).... The pre-Christian [Nazarenes] were conspicuous for their very characteristic peculiarities. They were Jews by race. According to Epiphanius, they dwelt in Galtides, Basanitides, and the other regions along the Jordan. They practiced circumcision, observed the sabbath and the other feasts of the Jews, and recognized the fathers mentioned in the Pentateuch as representatives of true religion... Finally, while keeping all the observances of the Jews, they refused to offer sacrifices or to eat the flesh of animals... Christianity at [the end of the first century] was no longer identical, in its doctrinal affirmations, with the faith of the first disciples." (Jewish Sects at the Time of Jesus, by Marcel Simon; Fortress Press, 1967).


Are you saying that the Nazarenes and the Ebionites (and even perhaps the Essenes at Qumran) were the same thing, or were the same group of people?

Secondly, while I would agree that modern Nazarenes are pretty 'different' than most modern Christians, there are A LOT of Sabbath Keeping Christians who are VERY NEAR to what other Messianic Jews and modern Nazarenes are like (this question is not aimed at you Yaaqub).

Thanks for your reply!

Peace (be) unto you, Albion

[yaaqub]

Shlama,

I don't actually lump the Ebionites, Essenes and Nazarenes together, although some scholars have done that in the past. So, no, I wouldn't say they were the same. I'm of the opinion that the original Nazarenes were absorbed into the Churches of the East with the possibility of some splinter groups surviving into the fourth or fifth centuries. I believe this is why pockets of Assyrian believers once practiced Shabbat, dietary laws, etc. Some Assyrian Believers today know that even their grandparents (in these modern times) insist somewhat on Sabbath, no pork, etc.

I believe the religious and cultural practices of the ancient Nazarenes and the Gentile Christians were miles a part from one another. We read about this in the early community of Believers, with strife between the converts in Paul's ministry and the Jewish believers who were closer to Peter, James and John. It is like looking at Roman Catholicism and Greek Orthodoxy and comparing it to Eastern, or Middle Eastern Aramean Faith...miles apart in my opinion.

I believe it's evident that the early Believers who were Nazarenes were very staunchly opposed to groups of people not following the Torah. Today, Christians teach that there is no Torah to be followed and even many Messianic and some "Nazarene" groups say that believers are not under Torah. (I'm not making an argument for or against Torah observance -- I'm only making a comparison).

Christianity (from a broad spectrum of denominations) teaches:

"...since faith (Christianity) has come, we are no longer under the law" (New American Bible Copyright 1991 by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, Inc., United States Conference of Catholic Bishops)

"We are not to follow both the Old Testament and the law of Christ at the same time. To do so would be spiritual adultery" (From a Bible study lesson produced by a group known as "Gospel Way", copyright 1991, 1998, by David E. Pratte)

"the Law of Moses is simply the wrong law... the Law of Moses is obsolete." ("The role of the law in Christian life", article by Joseph Tkach, copyright 1999, Worldwide Church of God)

An introductory note in the New International Version for Paul's epistle to the Galatians reads, "Judaizers were Jewish Christians who believed, among other things, that a number of the ceremonial practices of the Old testament were still binding on the New Testament church... they insisted that Gentile converts to Christianity abide by certain Old Testament rites... The Judaizers argued that Paul was not an authentic apostle and that out of a desire to make the message more appealing to Gentiles he had removed from the gospel certain legal requirements." (Copyright 1989 by the Zondervan Corporation.)

The "Orthodox Study Bible", in its reproduction of Jack N. Spark's "Interpreting the Scriptures", says, "...the Church learned early that she was not to lay its [the Law's] requirements on those who came to her to be in Christ... This part, at least, of the Old Testament was no longer to be followed." The Orthodox Christians appeal to Cyril of Jerusalem for justifying their rejection of the Law. Cyril of Jerusalem is known for teaching against Paul's instructions to the Romans where he said that God has not rejected His people Israel. Cyril states, "After the rejection of the first Church in Judea [Jews], the Churches of Christ are multiplied throughout the whole world." (The Orthodox Study Bible is copyright 1993 by St. Athanasius Orthodox Academy, which uses the New King James Version - a Protestant translation and update to the King James Version)

Eerdmans Handbook to the Bible, in its commentary on the epistle of Paul to the Galatians, says, "...the Jewish trouble-makers have tried to undermine confidence in Paul himself. They have accused him of currying favour. They have called him a bogus apostle... The law operated as a temporary restraint until the promise made to Abraham was fulfilled in the coming of Christ." (Eerdmans Handbook to the Bible, 2002 edition published by Lion Publishing).

All of these quotes are actually in opposition to what Believers practiced and held to before the influx of Gentile Christianity. Historically Nazarenes and Christians are two separate religions. If a person were to practice the religion of the first disciples of Messiah today, it would be nothing liek modern day Christianity and would possibly be a smeared mirror of what "Messianic Judaism" teaches today.

That's just my opinion. <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s -->

Shlama Yaaqub,

I'm interested in this quote:

"We should remember that the term 'Christian' is absent both from the Gospels and from the Pauline epistles, and that the disciples of Christ were first designated as Nazarenes...which remains their normal appellation in the Jewish circles of semitic tongue (the Christians applied this term exclusively to a Jewish-Christian sect).... The pre-Christian [Nazarenes] were conspicuous for their very characteristic peculiarities. They were Jews by race. According to Epiphanius, they dwelt in Galtides, Basanitides, and the other regions along the Jordan. They practiced circumcision, observed the sabbath and the other feasts of the Jews, and recognized the fathers mentioned in the Pentateuch as representatives of true religion... Finally, while keeping all the observances of the Jews, they refused to offer sacrifices or to eat the flesh of animals... Christianity at [the end of the first century] was no longer identical, in its doctrinal affirmations, with the faith of the first disciples." (Jewish Sects at the Time of Jesus, by Marcel Simon; Fortress Press, 1967).

Are you saying that the Nazarenes and the Ebionites (and even perhaps the Essenes at Qumran) were the same thing, or were the same group of people?

Secondly, while I would agree that modern Nazarenes are pretty 'different' than most modern Christians, their are A LOT of Sabbath Keeping Christians who are VERY NEAR to what other Messianic Jews and modern Nazarenes are like (this question is not aimed at you Yaaqub).

Thanks for your reply!

Peace (be) unto you, Albion

[Dawid]

Albion, I contend that the Ebionites and Nazarenes are clearly different, based on all historical accounts.
I would also say that the Essenes at Qumran were very different from the Essenes in Galillee. Those in Galilee are more like Yeshua was.

The thing is that most SDA are considered heterodox, anyway, and I cannot stand WWCOG, or SDB. The question is are we like seventh day Christians, or are the SDAs like us? Besides, SDAs do not believe in obedience to Torah, and are Trinitarian.

[Dawid]

Yaaqub, I would say that some of the N'tzarim and Evionim were absorbed into the COE. Some were reabsorbed into mainstream Judaism. Thus you end up with guys like Simcha Pearlmutter, and the DuTillet Hebrew Mattai, whose Hebrew is not of a Midaeval sort. It is clearly descended from an early version, whether you think it is from the original text of Mattai or simply an early translation.

[*Albion*]

Dear Dawid,

Dare I dive into this pool?

OK, here goes.

I was once a member of The Church of God (Seventh Day).

They were/are NOT like SDA's or WWCOG!

They were the nearest thing that I could find in Western Arkansas (where I used to live) to Messianic Judaism.

Here is their website:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://cog7.org/">http://cog7.org/</a><!-- m -->

Now, having said that, I'm convinced that The Assyrian Church of the East is the LAST real remnant of the original Nazarenes that remains in today's world.

I'm also convinced enough that I belong there, that I would try to join the COE if there was a Church near me. Which alas, there ISN'T.

Paul's home Church of St. John's in Chicago (about 400 miles away) is the nearest COE to us.

We plan on visiting there however, in the Spring.

I'm divorced and re-married, and that's a real impediant to most Orthodox Churches, I'm not entirely sure how the COE views divorce and remarriage.

The Assyrian Church of the East fits my heart (so to speak) and I find things that Akhan Paul writes here and elsewhere about the COE to be very lovely, and it calls to me and says "Come home......"

I'm NOT Assyrian. Only by my desire am I in any way........Assyrian.

I'm convinced that the Blessed Apostles brought the True Faith in Messiah to the COE, as well as the Peshitta NT.

I'm touched to the very center of my heart by the Assyrian COE.

And I thank Alaha that He brought me to this Forum and allowed me to meet Akhan Paul (Younan)!

I'm just so Thankful that I finally found what I've looked for, for ages (since my late 20's anyway) and I'm now 56.

Even if I only attend the COE once in my life, I still found the Lord's Church here on earth, and for this, I'm eternally grateful!

Shlama in Maran Yeshua, Albion

Albion, I contend that the Ebionites and Nazarenes are clearly different, based on all historical accounts.
I would also say that the Essenes at Qumran were very different from the Essenes in Galillee. Those in Galilee are more like Yeshua was.

The thing is that most SDA are considered heterodox, anyway, and I cannot stand WWCOG, or SDB. The question is are we like seventh day Christians, or are the SDAs like us? Besides, SDAs do not believe in obedience to Torah, and are Trinitarian.