Facts about the "Hebrew Primacy" movement

[Dawid]

Dawid,

Also, the letters were mostly in Aramaic (9 in Aramaic, 4 in Hebrew, 2 in Greek):

From Yigael Yadin, Jerusalem:

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0006-08...nlargePage
(from The Biblical Archaeologist, Vol. 24, No. 3 (Sep., 1961), pp. 86-95)

Don't believe anything from the Trimm movement.

Actually, I read about them from sources that predate the Trimm movement by decades.

[Dawid]

Hey Akhi Dawid,

Christa, would you mind explaining the Bar Kochba letters to me, and how they came to be written in Hebrew?

How come Rabbi Akiva renamed him from his original name, Shimon ben-Kosba, to "bar-Kochba" (Aramaic for "Son of a Star") ?

I mean, why not the nice Hebrew name "Ben-Kochba?"

Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that if he had been named "ibn-Kochba" or "bin-Kochba", we might have reason to suspect that someone spoke Arabic primarily? <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

That is true. I do not suggest that Hebrew was the primary or the only language of 1st-2nd century Israel. I simply think that is was more widely spoken than we have been lead to believe. Siloam, the Bar-Kochba (which, unless I'm mistaken, it was not unusual to see "bar" and even "ibn" in Hebrew rabbinic literature after the first exile) letters, and the 2nd century contracts found in wadi Murabba'at, indicate that there was a Hebrew revival, and that both it and Aramaic were spoken among the people of Israel during the Second Temple period.
I also think we should look for a different explanation of ben-kosba and bar-kochba than the traditional one. For instance, Allegro's hypothesis that both kochba and kozeba are merely a kind of nick name based on his actual name of ben-koseba. If his name were really changed, then why was he still signing letters as "Simon ben Koseba" in 134 C.E.? I think the name Bar Kochba must be attributed mainly to tradition.
Allegro also points out, "It will have been noticed that the letters written to the military post at Murabba'at were written in Hebrew, as were some of the contracts. This hardly accords with the oft-expressed view that long before this Hebrew had become a dead language." These letters were too practical to have been written in Hebrew merely for the sake of nationalistic zeal, and too important to have risked the recipient misunderstanding them by writing them in a language with which he is only somewhat familiar.
I also do not find any mention in Allegro of some of them being in Aramaic. Would you mind pointing me to your source, please?

[Dawid]

It was a nationalist thing. Like modern day Assyrians with their winged bulls, I bet they needed something to revive the spirit of the people for a rebellion so they printed the coins in the old Mosaic language. My opinion. Hardly proof it was a living language, liturgical language yes for sure, of course.

These are not merely coins. They are military letters of import.

[Paul Younan]

The source is the discoverer of the letters himself, Yigael Yadin, Jerusalem:

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0006-08...nlargePage
(from The Biblical Archaeologist, Vol. 24, No. 3 (Sep., 1961), pp. 86-95)

Most of the letters were in Aramaic. Nine in Aramaic. A couple in Greek, and 4 in Hebrew.

[Paul Younan]

They are military letters of import.

Ever hear of the Navajo Code Talkers?

http://www.navajocodetalkers.org/

Perhaps some of the more "sensitive" communications regarding military tactics were penned in Hebrew, for the obvious reason that less people from a smaller pool of religious/educated elite would be able to translate for the Romans?

Look, no one ever said Hebrew was a dead language. It's always been around for at least liturgical purposes. I realize that it was probably alive in some sort of fashion in 1st-century Judea, at least among the religiously trained. But it was not the vernacular of the common people.

Jesus certainly seemed to use Aramaic. We've yet to uncover any exclusively-Hebrew words he used.

In addition, Aramaic would have been the best language of transport throughout the Jewish world - especially in the immense Jewish population of Syria, Mesopotamia and Persia.

Again, I raise the question - to whose benefit would a Hebrew NT have been?

[Dawid]

They are military letters of import.

Ever hear of the Navajo Code Talkers?

http://www.navajocodetalkers.org/

Perhaps some of the more "sensitive" communications regarding military tactics were penned in Hebrew, for the obvious reason that less people from a smaller pool of religious/educated elite would be able to translate for the Romans?

Look, no one ever said Hebrew was a dead language. It's always been around for at least liturgical purposes. I realize that it was probably alive in some sort of fashion in 1st-century Judea, at least among the religiously trained. But it was not the vernacular of the common people.

Jesus certainly seemed to use Aramaic. We've yet to uncover any exclusively-Hebrew words he used.

In addition, Aramaic would have been the best language of transport throughout the Jewish world - especially in the immense Jewish population of Syria, Mesopotamia and Persia.

Again, I raise the question - to whose benefit would a Hebrew NT have been?

Yes, I've heard of the code talkers. I'm not quite sure why a letter telling one regional commander that Ben-Koseba would put him in irons if the Galileans were mistreated is of a particularly sensitive nature.
To whose benefit? Well, to that of its audience. Please remember that it has never been my contention that all of it was composed in Aramaic. Only that certain parts of it were. Admittedly, certain books were written specifically to Israeli Jews. Luke and Acts, for instance, were probably written to the Qohen Gadol. Mattai was probably written to religious Israeli Jews. Yokhanan was probably written to the Shomrim. (I know that they later spoke Aramaic, but we can't be sure of what they spoke in the first century. It is very sparsely documented. We don't know for sure until the third or fourth century.) Most if not all of the letters were almost certainly written in Aramaic.

Shalom,
Dawid

[Dawid]

It was a nationalist thing. Like modern day Assyrians with their winged bulls, I bet they needed something to revive the spirit of the people for a rebellion so they printed the coins in the old Mosaic language. My opinion. Hardly proof it was a living language, liturgical language yes for sure, of course.

These are not merely coins. They are military letters of import.

That's even further proof, if such a letter of import is written in a language even more obscure than aramaic, it would be of value in keeping it away from the Romans. Think- if I am a Japanese officer in WW2 and I know some sort of Imperial Japanese script or language from the Tokugawa era which other officers use but common Japanese don't, which would I use to keep my countrymen's eyes and the enemies eyes away from? Not a good example, but Akhiva was the one who nominated Bar Kochba the messiah, and he was a Sage who knew the mosaic language few others knew.

As I already pointed out, the Wadi Murabba'at material was not all that classified. He got onto one of his Judean commanders for mistreating Galilleans. Yeah. Top secret kinda stuff there. Then there was the contract regarding the sale of an ox. That doesn't strike me as particularly classified information, either. Your theory there just won't hold water.

[Dawid]

It only matters if the letters recipient spoke the language. Think about it....the biggest sage of the time declared Bar Kochba the messiah it's obvious that he had good connections with the leadership of the era and that this was probably who the letter was being mailed to. Also the stuff on the Galileans was pretty secretive if you ask me, the last thing you want to show your enemy is lack of unity amongst your kin when he's about to strike you hard, I mean that's the last thing you want to show. Even the ox thing can (I confess somewhat stretchingly) be important, think about provisions during a war, how 250,000 Jews died in 70 A.D. (mostly due to provisions being used rapidly during the siege and also for sacrifices in the temple). I don't trust anything Trimm says, I mean anything.

I already told you, none of this comes from Trimm. I'm not too fond of Trimm myself. I got my information from John Allegro's book "The Mystery of the Dead Sea Scrolls Revealed." Allegro was a member of the original international team that worked on the DSS.
I seriously doubt that it was about supplies. For one thing, it was merely settling a dispute over the ownership of a particular heifer. It really would not have proven significant if the Romans had captured it, honestly. Besides that, you appear to be confusing the rebellion in 70 with the rebellion in 132-135, which is what we're discussing.

[Dawid]

I'm saying they wanted enough supplies to avoid a repeat of 70 A.D. Either way, the letter was of high importance, dealing with matters of military importance, it's apparent to me they were speaking in a tongue used by only a small circle thus making it harder to decipher, much like the code talkers of our days.

Now you're talking nonsense. You could make such an argument for the ben koseba letters, but not for this contract.

[Dawid]

The contract on the heifer was from "the administrators of Beth Mashiko" to "Joshua Ben Galgula, chief of the camp."
I didn't say it mean that it was the Lingua Franca. I merely contended that it was still spoken, and had uses outside of liturgy.

Shalom,
Dawid

[*Albion*]

Shlama Dawid,

You said:

"If you are a Messianic/Notzri, I would like to warn you about Lashon HaRa'a, Yaaqub. Please do not make false accusations against us."


This so reminds me of the Trimm camp. Anyone criticize's ANYTHING.........it's "Lashon Ha Ra".

I've seen this before, and it made me sick then, and it makes me sick NOW.

Albion

[Dawid]

Shlama Dawid,

You said:

"If you are a Messianic/Notzri, I would like to warn you about Lashon HaRa'a, Yaaqub. Please do not make false accusations against us."


This so reminds me of the Trimm camp. Anyone criticize's ANYTHING.........it's "Lashon Ha Ra".

I've seen this before, and it made me sick then, and it makes me sick NOW.

Albion

Let me repeat myself for the dozenth time, I am not a Trimm-ite. I have a number of disagreements with Trimm, not the least of which involve the text of the 'Edoth. He happens to be of the Rabbanite school of Notzreism, and I am of the Karaite school. What Yaaqub said struck me as lashon hara'. I am not interested in what Trimm or Trimm-ites would say. I've virtually never been accused of conforming to any school of thought on anything. This is no exception.

[*Albion*]

Shlama Rafa,

You said:

"plus what sort of person (ie: Trimm) would refer to himself as being a "Notzri" when that is a derrogatory rabbinic reference to Y'shua?"

My understanding is in MODERN Israel 'Notzri' is a reference to ANYONE "Christian", and this includes 'Messianic Jews'.

Now "Yeshu" in MODERN Israel, CAN mean "Let his name be obliterated, and not be remembered, and not be inscribed in the book of life".

If I remember correctly, that is. If that's not it exactly, it's close.

What am I missing about 'Notzri'?

Can you tell me?

Thanks.

Shlama, Albion

[Dawid]

Guys "Lashon HaRa'a" is a heavy term for anyone on this board, please yaaqub,Dawid,Albion,...unity <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: -->

One thing though, everything from Trimm's mouth is Lashon Hara'a, plus what sort of person (ie: Trimm) would refer to himself as being a "Notzri" when that is a derrogatory rabbinic reference to Y'shua? That gospel of Matthew he has is completely mutilated and was written by a group of ebionites who clearly insulted our messiah and tried to claim John the Baptist was the real messiah. If you want to investigate Hebrew primacy go anywhere except to Trimm, Akhi Andrew warned me just on time concerning him, I had just read 1 little article he put out and thought I could give an ear to his thoughts, thank God I didn't.

*bangs head on desk* Not even adressing your personal accusations against Trimm, which are completely unjust (this coming from someone who doesn't even like the guy).
I'm only going to address a few things that you said which are inaccurate. What would be the proper Hebrew term for one who is a natzar (guard)?
The Gospel of Hebrew he as is not an Ebionite text. No one has yet proven that the Hebrew Matthew, or the Shem-Tov in particular, has any connection to the Ebionite Gospel quoted by the church fathers. In fact, George Howard has done an excellent job of putting that theory to rest. The Shem-Tob was found as an appendix to Even Bohan ("The Touchstone") which is an antimissionary work. Not an Ebionite one.
The Ebionites did not believe that John the Baptist was the Messiah. You're confusing them with the...rats. I can't think of their name right now, but there is a group that follows John the Baptist. They're in Iraq to this day.
Finally, I've not gone to Trimm to research this. Please, people, get that into your heads. I have not gotten my information from Trimm.

Shalom,
Dawid

[Dawid]

Shlama Rafa,

You said:

"plus what sort of person (ie: Trimm) would refer to himself as being a "Notzri" when that is a derrogatory rabbinic reference to Y'shua?"

My understanding is in MODERN Israel 'Notzri' is a reference to ANYONE "Christian", and this includes 'Messianic Jews'.

Now "Yeshu" in MODERN Israel, CAN mean "Let his name be obliterated, and not be remembered, and not be inscribed in the book of life".

If I remember correctly, that is. If that's not it exactly, it's close.

What am I missing about 'Notzri'?

Can you tell me?

Thanks.

Shlama, Albion

In modern Hebrew Notzri usually refers to a Catholic, or other orthodox Christian. It's the same way in Arabic. It's based on the passage in Matthew that says that Yeshu'a went to Nazareth to fulfill the prophecy that he would be called a Nazarene. In Hebrew that would be Notzri. Then in Acts Sha'ul is brought up for trial before Felix, and they say that he is a leader of the Notzrim.