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Dan Gan
#1
Quote:With all respect to your opinion and how you felt, I feel there is no need to demand an apology from someone who does not feel any remorse of what he had done. You apologize to someone because you realized that you have done wrong. Not because someone (in power such as a moderator) demanded it. Not because you wanted to create a new thread to bash the Bible and wage jihad (total war) against Bible believers. Not because you wanted to continue to promote your Islamic agenda after saying farewell. Cutting and pasting from anti-Bible web sites and calling it a debate in a place where Bible believers gathered is like posting pornography.

You cannot act or pretend to be mature if you are not.


It is just my 0.1 cent opinion.

Peace.


First and foremost, let me start off by saying that I originally posted on "Losing Jesus' Language" in order to defend my faith. It was you who posted the following excerpt from Christianity Today:


Persecution of Assyrians during the past several centuries has centered around their Christianity, not their ethnicity. It is only in the 19th and 20th centuries that ethnicity has come to play a role in the Middle East as a source of friction.

Records from the 19th century are plentiful and clear: Islamic governments treated all "people of the Book" as tolerated second-class citizens. The Assyrians were subjected to poll taxes levied against non-Muslims and the oppressive feudal system prevalent in the Middle East, which combined to keep the Assyrians poor and starving.


In Logic, I learned the nature of conditional statements. Here's one for you:

If Dan posts against Islam, then Kevin will be provoked.

The first part of the sentence is called the antecedent. The second part of the sentence is called the consequent

If Kevin is provoked, then Dan will whine

If you really didn't want me to post about Islam here, then you would not have provoked me several times since you've joined this forum (considering how sensitive I am). You would not even have mentioned Islam on a 'Christian forum' since its similar to 'pornography.'

However, you like provoking me. Then when I ask you to prove your accusations, you 'cut and paste' weak Hadiths from anti-Islamic websites. Subsequently, you realize that you have no substantial evidence apart from the hearsay you cling so tightly to, so finally, you say something like "Posting Islam here is just a waste of bandwidth.....this is a Christian forum.....this forum is this....you can't say that.....I didn't join this forum to hear this....."

Cry me a river.

You fear me. You fear, since this is a 'Christian forum,' that I just might infiltrate through your faith or the faith of other Christians on this forum. Had you been confident about your faith, you'd welcome dialogue with me.

But any man who decides on the soundness of an argument before it iss argued is a fool.

Paul, the one whom you brown-nose metriculously, stated that this forum was not created to discuss theology. Consider the following construction:

Peshitta.org was not created to discuss theology
Christianity is theological
Therefore Peshitta.org was not created to discuss Christianity.

And therefore, this is not a 'Christian forum." If that is true, then all faiths are welcomed here (since we're not here to discuss faith but Aramaic primacy), as the webmaster stated numerous times to my defense.

Furthermore, Paul stated that all faiths are to be respected. However, you slander my faith, then you throw your hands up like a coward and say 'If you want to discuss your faith, go to....'

Give me a break, buddy.

Quote:Cutting and pasting from anti-Bible web sites and calling it a debate in a place where Bible believers gathered is like posting pornography.

Any educated person who has written a term paper for a professor knows that one must use sources to strengthen one's argument. Those sources are usually quotations from experts in a given field of study. For my purposes, I quote experts in Oriential Studies, who've spent years researching issues I have no time for.

It is you who 'cuts and pastes' Hadiths, although you disregard the strengths and weaknesses of the chain of transmission for the given Hadith. Ironically, you do so from anti-Qu'ranic websites, though you accuse me of the same foul action.

Quote:Not because you wanted to continue to promote your Islamic agenda after saying farewell.

I defended myself. You initiated the topic from the Christianity Today quotation. Had you kept the topic restricted to "Losing Jesus' Language," I would not be posting right now. All of this could have been avoided.

Quote:With all respect to your opinion and how you felt, I feel there is no need to demand an apology from someone who does not feel any remorse of what he had done. You apologize to someone because you realized that you have done wrong. Not because someone (in power such as a moderator) demanded it

I apologized to Andrew because I love Andrew. We've been conversing on this forum for nearly eight years. Why then would you try to ruin our reconciliation? What type of 'Bible believer' are you?

You better take it easy, newcomer.

If we were face to face, you wouldn't utter a single word to me in disrespect. You can hide underneath the shade of these text windows, but face to face, you'll melt.

No, I do not like you. However, I will respect you. Therefore, do not post about me. Do not post for me or against me. Stay clear of me and I will of you.

Finally, I belong here because I am an 'Aramaic primacist' in the sense that I believe the Gospel was originally composed in Aramaic, in either oral or written form. What I think about the Gospels now is a different story. But that's where you and I differ.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
Reply
#2
February 22, 2005

The following syllogism is faulty:

"Peshitta.org was not created to discuss theology;
Christianity is theological,
Therefore Peshitta.org was not created to discuss Christianity."

"Theology" and "theological" are not equivalent and are not even the same parts of speech. The conclusion is invalid. Theology is a noun meaning the study of the nature of God and religious truth, while "theological" is an adjective describing things things that pertain to religious philosophy. Christianity is a noun refering to a specific religion.

More correctly:

Peshitta.org was created to discuss the subject of the Aramaic New Testament;
Christianity is the subject of the Aramaic New Testament,
Therefore, Peshitta.org was created to discuss the subject of Christianity.

Otto
Reply
#3
Quote:February 22, 2005

The following syllogism is faulty:

"Peshitta.org was not created to discuss theology;
Christianity is theological,
Therefore Peshitta.org was not created to discuss Christianity."

"Theology" and "theological" are not equivalent and are not even the same parts of speech. The conclusion is invalid. Theology is a noun meaning the study of the nature of God and religious truth, while "theological" is an adjective describing things things that pertain to religious philosophy. Christianity is a noun refering to a specific religion.

More correctly:

Peshitta.org was created to discuss the subject of the Aramaic New Testament;
Christianity is the subject of the Aramaic New Testament,
Therefore, Peshitta.org was created to discuss the subject of Christianity.

Otto

Main Entry: the??ol??o??gy
Pronunciation: thE-'??-l&-jE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -gies
Etymology: Middle English theologie, from Latin theologia, from Greek, from the- + -logia -logy
1 : the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world
2 a : [i][b]a theological theory or system [/b][/i]<Thomist theology> <a theology of atonement> b : a distinctive body of theological opinion <Catholic theology>
3 : a usually 4-year course of specialized religious training in a Roman Catholic major seminary

Quote:while "theological" is an adjective describing things things that pertain to religious philosophy.

"Theological" is an adjective describing things that pertain to "the study of religious faith, practice, and experience;especially:the study of God and of God's relation to the world." Thus, theology and theological are agnate in meaning, but dissimilar in our separation of English speech.

In light of this new knowledge, Paul says the following:

Theological discussions/arguments are not welcome here. If you have a question about the rapture, the antichrist, the Sabbath, why the Church of the East doesn't do this or why the Roman Catholic Church does that (or any other unrelated topic), then your question is best answered on the thousands of forums that are dedicated to theological debates

Thus, according to him, if you want to turn this into a Bible club, go elsewhere. Moreover, if you are excluding persons of other faiths from having a sense of belonging because of your wishful thinking, then Paul answers you again with the following:

.....any threatening, abusive, libelous, or defamatory information of any kind posted here will be removed. Personal insults or insults toward any community will not be tolerated

I feel both insulted and threatened. So let the people say 'Amen.'

Mind your business, Otto. This thread is dedicated to Dan.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
Reply
#4
Shlama Akhi bar-Khela,

This isn't a Christian-only club, and no insults to anyone's faith, creed or person will be tolerated.

That being said, consider that during the majority of the time period pertaining to the history of Aramaic and the survival of the few pockets left of the various communities that still speak it, the people who ruled the region professed Islam.

Whether the profession was in name only, or whether they ill-practiced it is beyond the scope of the original article posted by Akhan Dan Gan.

The Church of the East in general, and the Assyrian people in particular, found themselves at times enjoying the benefits of Islamic tolerance and at other (more frequent times) enjoying the benefits of Islamic intolerance.

It was under the rule of Islam, during the Patriarchate of Timothy in the 12th century, that the CoE found itself at its largest extent - the largest Church of its day.

Likewiese, it was under the rule of Islam, during the rampages of other (less tolerant) rulers such as the Ill-Khans or Tamerlane, that the CoE found itself nearly decimated. The rule of the Ottoman Turks, Persians and Kurds further decimated the CoE through mutliple genocides on a scale (per capita) that surpassed anything the Jews experienced in Nazi Germany. My Grandparents were victims of these atrocities, as were many of our people under Saddam Hussein before being liberated by the U.S.

It went from 80 million people at its height, a full 25% of the world population at the time, to 100,000 people at its lowest in 1918. You have to ask yourself what happened in between 1300 and 1918 to make that drastic decline possible.

The eventual demise of this community (and this language) is tied, historically, to the rise of (intolerant) Islamic rule and to the relegation of this community to second-class status. Something I am sure you can relate to, having witnessed the effects of a similiar discrimination upon your people for two centuries. Imagine fifteen centuries.

If there is anyone on this forum who can appreciate our current condition, and the environment which led to it, it is you.

So please understand.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
Reply
#5
bar_khela Wrote:You better take it easy, newcomer.

If we were face to face, you wouldn't utter a single word to me in disrespect. You can hide underneath the shade of these text windows, but face to face, you'll melt.

No, I do not like you. However, I will respect you. Therefore, do not post about me. Do not post for me or against me. Stay clear of me and I will of you.


You are taking offense at every slightest comments I made on persecutions of the Assyrian Church by the Muslims. I did not criticize Islam. I just stated a fact. You are denying fact. In fact you are trying hard to justify the persecution of the Assyrian churches.

I tried my best to stay clear of you since your last PM to me. Remember how you threatened to get me banned in your private message to me? It was you who are taking offense at my statements which are not meant to criticize your religion but stating the facts about persecution of the Assyrian people. When you demanded proofs from me I showed you Hadith and you're offended by your own Hadith. Whether you accept Hadith or not it is not my problem. What I know is many Muslims out there believe in Hadith and are required to believe in Hadith. In fact, they will not consider you as a Muslim if you reject Hadith. What make you think that your "cut and paste" and "non Islamic resources" are more trustworthy than the Hadith to the majority of Muslims out there? Well, once again that is not my problem.

I do not go to Islamic forums to attack Islamic religion or offended by Muslims criticizing Christians or Jews in Islamic forums. So, why are you easily offended by the facts that I posted from "Christianity Today"?
This is not anti-Islam web sites:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www2.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/muslim/019_smt.html#019_4366">http://www2.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/musl ... l#019_4366</a><!-- m -->
It is taken from International Islamic University of Malaysia web site. I am sure the Islamic Professors there are more knowledgable than you regarding Islamic faith. Why don't you debate them instead? Why don't you kindly ask them to remove the Hadith since they are false?

The crucifixion of Yeshua Meshikha is offensive to your Islamic faith too. The message of the cross is offensive to Islam too. The beliefs that Yeshua is the Divine Son of God is offensive to Islamic faith too. Are you going to be provoked by that too when we followers of Yeshua discuss about the crucifixion of our Meshikha here?


bar_khela Wrote:If we were face to face, you wouldn't utter a single word to me in disrespect. You can hide underneath the shade of these text windows, but face to face, you'll melt.


Last time you threatened to get me banned. Are you threatening to beat me up now? Do I understand you correctly?

So, what are you going to do if I am face to face in front of you? Are you going to beat me up? Or are you going to burn me to make me melt like candle? Just because you are a huge big size Muhammad Ali lookalike African American man and I am a small built skinny East Asian man, do you think that I would not be telling you the same thing in front of you? You are mistaken because we are taught to obey God rather than men!


bar_khela Wrote:You better take it easy, newcomer.


<!-- s:dontgetit: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/dontgetit.gif" alt=":dontgetit:" title="Dont Get It" /><!-- s:dontgetit: -->


That really shows your immaturity. Let me play your game for a while... Do you think I am a newcomer here just because I signed up as member later than you? <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: --> RFOL

I discovered this site long time ago before I signed up as member. In fact, I knew about this forum when it was in old format. I just don't have the time to take part. So you signed up as a member the same day as Paul Younan. I could have signed up the same day as you or a day later than you because I am a frequent visitor to this site. I guess Andrew Gabriel Roth is also a "Johnny come lately" to you because he signed up one day later than you. <!-- s:eh: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/eh.gif" alt=":eh:" title="Eh" /><!-- s:eh: -->

End of game...

Well, I forgot. You are Paul Younan's friend. You can get me banned. Go ahead and persuade him to ban me.

I might be a "newcomer" here and not contributing much to this forum like others or in your eyes as much as you do but I am sure many newcomers out there are contributing to promote the Peshitta more than you do - i.e "newcomers" or "Johnnys come lately" like Christopher Lancaster, Dave Bauscher, Jing, etc.

If you want to continue to promote your Islamic agenda here, it is up to you. This forum does not belong to me. All I can do is to give my opinions that members here should concentrate on Peshitta instead of wasting time on Islamic debates which could be held elsewhere (i.e. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/">http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/</a><!-- m --> ). Others could disagree with my opinions. One thing for sure is I will not beat them up if I meet them face to face or get upset or dislike them if they disagree with my opinions. Muslim-Christian relationship are generally getting bad lately after 9-11. There is no need to make it worse by fighting in the forums or chat rooms. That is my point when drmlanc posted a joke about Islam in this forum. You are upset with me since then.

If you have a share in this forum then go ahead and ban me. Or if there is a Muslim among the moderators of this forum or this forum partially belong to any Muslim out there, then let me know as I will surely no longer take part in this forum. Is there any? Just let me know. I find it is unjustified that theological discussions here based on the Bible is not welcome but propagating Islamic agenda is welcome.

Should Paul Younan or any unknown owner(s) of this forum find that my presence here is troublesome or burdensome and my posts here are not contributing to this forum, then just let me know as I don't like to waste my time, especially at places where I am not welcome.


My faith in Peshitta does not depend on this web site because I have been studying it before I discovered this site. Even if I am banned here I will still believe in Peshitta and might set up my own web site if I am free.

bar_khela Wrote:Thus, according to him, if you want to turn this into a Bible club, go elsewhere.

Peshitta is a Bible. Why should I go elsewhere if I wanted to turn this site into a "Bible club"? <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: --> Hmm... it is strange that it is okay to turn this site into Quranic club or Islamic debate club but not "Bible club." Where shall I go? <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: --> Should I set up my own Peshitta site? I could easily make it rank at number one in major search engines like Google.

Why must I come here if I wanted to debate about Islam? Is this Quran club? Why don't I go elsewhere? (e.g. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum">http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum</a><!-- m --> ) <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: -->


I guess I better stop posting in this forum because I am a "newcomer" here who is not as highly educated as others here. Furthermore, Paul Younan doesn't want me to turn this forum into "Bible club." I should go elsewhere where Peshitta is considered a Bible. Let me see what a veteran of this forum who is an "educated person who has written a term paper for a professor" could do to advance Aramaic primacy.
Reply
#6
Quote:Shlama Akhi bar-Khela,

This isn't a Christian-only club, and no insults to anyone's faith, creed or person will be tolerated.

That being said, consider that during the majority of the time period pertaining to the history of Aramaic and the survival of the few pockets left of the various communities that still speak it, the people who ruled the region professed Islam.

Whether the profession was in name only, or whether they ill-practiced it is beyond the scope of the original article posted by Akhan Dan Gan.

The Church of the East in general, and the Assyrian people in particular, found themselves at times enjoying the benefits of Islamic tolerance and at other (more frequent times) enjoying the benefits of Islamic intolerance.

It was under the rule of Islam, during the Patriarchate of Timothy in the 12th century, that the CoE found itself at its largest extent - the largest Church of its day.

Likewiese, it was under the rule of Islam, during the rampages of other (less tolerant) rulers such as the Ill-Khans or Tamerlane, that the CoE found itself nearly decimated. The rule of the Ottoman Turks, Persians and Kurds further decimated the CoE through mutliple genocides on a scale (per capita) that surpassed anything the Jews experienced in Nazi Germany. My Grandparents were victims of these atrocities, as were many of our people under Saddam Hussein before being liberated by the U.S.

It went from 80 million people at its height, a full 25% of the world population at the time, to 100,000 people at its lowest in 1918. You have to ask yourself what happened in between 1300 and 1918 to make that drastic decline possible.

The eventual demise of this community (and this language) is tied, historically, to the rise of (intolerant) Islamic rule and to the relegation of this community to second-class status. Something I am sure you can relate to, having witnessed the effects of a similiar discrimination upon your people for two centuries. Imagine fifteen centuries.

If there is anyone on this forum who can appreciate our current condition, and the environment which led to it, it is you.

So please understand.

Yes, my beloved friend, I hearken to the words you've spoken. I noticed how you distinguished 'the Ill-Khans,' Turks, Persians, and Kurds from 'Islam.' If you want to refer to the current persecution of Assyrians in Iraq, for instance, then refer to Arab emigrates, not Muslims.

I, myself, would spill blood for the Assyrian Church.

Though I do not share your faith, you have the right to believe, to walk, to talk, to teach, to run, to play, to dance, and etc. As a human being, I would defend your right to do so.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
Reply
#7
February 22, 2005

To the person who said I should mind my own business, I suggest that he conduct private debates by personal e-mail rather than on this forum. If they are on this forum I assume they are intended to be viewed and responded to by all.

Otto
Reply
#8
Quote:I tried my best to stay clear of you since your last PM to me. Remember how you threatened to get me banned in your private message to me?

A former member of this forum called the Peshitta a 'whore.' Paul immediately expelled him. You, among other condescending comments, compared Islam on a forum with 'Bible believers' to 'pornography.' This is offensive to me. Why shouldn't you be expelled for this crime against the forum?

Quote:It was you who are taking offense at my statements which are not meant to criticize your religion but stating the facts about persecution of the Assyrian people.

Islam has nothing to do with the persecution of the Assyrian people. Nor is Christianity responsible for the persecution of the Falasha in Ethiopia or the several thousand lynchings of Black men. Get that through your head quickly, please.

Quote:When you demanded proofs from me I showed you Hadith and you're offended by your own Hadith. Whether you accept Hadith or not it is not my problem.

I do accept Ahadith now. However, I only accept Ahadith with the soundest of chains of transmission which can absolutely positively be traced back to the Prophet. With all that said, al-Bukhari is the most authentic according to scholars.

But rather or not the Hadith you've quoted is strong, weak, or fabricated, you've provided no substantial, historical (what actually happened evidence) to prove that Jews and Christians were really expelled from the Arabian Peninsula.

The Jews

In 622, Muhammad made the following treaties with four tribes of Jews within the Arabian Peninsula:

???In the name of Allah (The One True God) the Compassionate, the Merciful. This is a document from Muhammad, the Prophet, governing the relation between the Believers from among the Qurayshites (i.e., Emigrants from Mecca) and Yathribites (i.e., the residents of Medina) and those who followed them and joined them and strived with them. They form one and the same community as against the rest of men.
???No Believer shall oppose the client of another Believer. Whosoever is rebellious, or seeks to spread injustice, enmity or sedition among the Believers, the hand of every man shall be against him, even if he be a son of one of them. A Believer shall not kill a Believer in retaliation of an unbeliever, nor shall he help an unbeliever against a Believer.

???Whosoever among the Jews follows us shall have help and equality; they shall not be injured nor shall any enemy be aided against them.... No separate peace will be made when the Believers are fighting in the way of Allah.... The Believers shall avenge the blood of one another shed in the way of Allah ....Whosoever kills a Believer wrongfully shall be liable to retaliation; all the Believers shall be against him as one man and they are bound to take action against him.

???The Jews shall contribute (to the cost of war) with the Believers so long as they are at war with a common enemy. The Jews of Banu Najjar, Banu al-Harith, Banu Sa'idah, Banu Jusham, Banu al-Aws, Banu Tha'labah, Jafnah, and Banu al-Shutaybah enjoy the same rights and priviledges as the Jews of Banu Aws.

???The Jews shall maintain their own religion and the Muslims theirs. Loyalty is a protection against treachery. The close friends of Jews are as themselves. None of them shall go out on a military expedition except with the permission of Muhammad, but he shall not be prevented from taking revenge for a wound.

???The Jews shall be responsible for their expenses and the Believers for theirs. Each, if attacked, shall come to the assistance of the other.

???The valley of Yathrib (Medina) shall be sacred and inviolable for all that join this Treaty. Strangers, under protection, shall be treated on the same ground as their protectors; but no stranger shall be taken under protection except with consent of his tribe....No woman shall be taken under protection without the consent of her family.

Whatever difference or dispute between the parties to this covenant remains unsolved shall be referred to Allah and to Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. Allah is the Guarantor of the piety and goodness that is embodied in this covenant. Neither the Quraysh nor their allies shall be given any protection.

???The contracting parties are bound to help one another against any attack on Yathrib. If they are called to cease hostilities and to enter into peace, they shall be bound to do so in the interest of peace; and if they make a similar demand on Muslims it must be carried out except when the war is agianst their religion.

???Allah approves the truth and goodwill of this covenant. This treaty shall not protect the unjust or the criminal. Whoever goes out to fight as well as whoever stays at home shall be safe and secure in this city unless he has perpetrated an injustice or commited a crime.... Allah is the protector of the good and God-fearing people.???

The Jews of Arabia, however, broke this covenant several times in favor of the pagan Quraish.

The Christians

In 628, Muhammad, through his scribe, says:

This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.
Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
No compulsion is to be on them.
Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.
No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.
Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.


No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.


The Muslims are to fight for them.
If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.
Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.
No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

Quote:I do not go to Islamic forums to attack Islamic religion or offended by Muslims criticizing Christians or Jews in Islamic forums. So, why are you easily offended by the facts that I posted from "Christianity Today"?
This is not anti-Islam web sites:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www2.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/muslim/019_smt.html#019_4366">http://www2.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/musl ... l#019_4366</a><!-- m -->
It is taken from International Islamic University of Malaysia web site. I am sure the Islamic Professors there are more knowledgable than you regarding Islamic faith. Why don't you debate them instead? Why don't you kindly ask them to remove the Hadith since they are false?

Only 20 percent of the Muslim population is in the Near East. The rest are are scattered across the world, from China to Latin America. Therefore, to use the word 'Muslim' in the article's context is to associate the crimes of many, not all, modern-day Arabs to all Muslims.


Quote:The crucifixion of Yeshua Meshikha is offensive to your Islamic faith too. The message of the cross is offensive to Islam too. The beliefs that Yeshua is the Divine Son of God is offensive to Islamic faith too. Are you going to be provoked by that too when we followers of Yeshua discuss about the crucifixion of our Meshikha here?

No, I will not be provoked. But if you can talk about his crucifixion and divinity, then so can I. My view is just as valid. You know why? Because this is not a Christian forum!


Quote:Last time you threatened to get me banned. Are you threatening to beat me up now? Do I understand you correctly?


Mentally, yes. Face to face, I'd have you sit down at my table in the kitchen. Then I'd go upstairs to bring down my suitcase of every source I have. What would you be able to say in face of reproductions purchased from the British Library?

That's why I'm always broke.


Quote:That really shows your immaturity. Let me play your game for a while... Do you think I am a newcomer here just because I signed up as member later than you? <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: --> RFOL

My comment has nothing to do with maturity. You simply have no right to come here and dictate what can and cannot be said here. If I, a Muslim, want to debate with Paul about the Diatessaron, I will. If I, a Muslim, want to debate with him the inimitability of the Qu'ran and thousands of Assyrian Christians who abandoned Syriac for Arabic in order to learn the Qu'ran, I will.

Quote:Well, I forgot. You are Paul Younan's friend. You can get me banned. Go ahead and persuade him to ban me.

I don't want you banned. I want an open apology as I gave to Andrew.

Quote:I might be a "newcomer" here and not contributing much to this forum like others or in your eyes as much as you do but I am sure many newcomers out there are contributing to promote the Peshitta more than you do - i.e "newcomers" or "Johnnys come lately" like Christopher Lancaster, Dave Bauscher, Jing, etc.

And the better performance goes to....


Quote:If you want to continue to promote your Islamic agenda here, it is up to you.

What agenda? You gave a quote, I threw a fit. Antecedent, Consequent.


Quote:This forum does not belong to me. All I can do is to give my opinions that members here should concentrate on Peshitta instead of wasting time on Islamic debates which could be held elsewhere (i.e. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/">http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/</a><!-- m --> ).

Fortunately, for had it been yours, you would have expelled me quicker like a papal authority would.

Again, you gave a quote, I threw a fit. If you do not mention Islam in a 'Christian forum,' then a Muslim has no need to be here to defend himself.

Antecedent, Consequent.

Quote:Others could disagree with my opinions. One thing for sure is I will not beat them up if I meet them face to face or get upset or dislike them if they disagree with my opinions.

You're a hypocrite. You can strongly imply (without ever clearing stating) that my religion is full of hatred, ignorance, and bigotry, but I cannot refute you? When I give an explanation to your post, you want to tell me to take it outside to another forum?

Hell no (pun intended)

You don't want a Islamic-Christian dialogue. You want a monologue. You want every member in this forum to gnash their teeth in agreement.

Quote:Muslim-Christian relationship are generally getting bad lately after 9-11. There is no need to make it worse by fighting in the forums or chat rooms. That is my point when drmlanc posted a joke about Islam in this forum. You are upset with me since then.

You sided with him against me when I, as I noteably do, defended my faith. So yes, you're right.

Quote:If you have a share in this forum then go ahead and ban me. Or if there is a Muslim among the moderators of this forum or this forum partially belong to any Muslim out there, then let me know as I will surely no longer take part in this forum. Is there any? Just let me know. I find it is unjustified that theological discussions here based on the Bible is not welcome but propagating Islamic agenda is welcome.
Should Paul Younan or any unknown owner(s) of this forum find that my presence here is troublesome or burdensome and my posts here are not contributing to this forum, then just let me know as I don't like to waste my time, especially at places where I am not welcome.


My faith in Peshitta does not depend on this web site because I have been studying it before I discovered this site. Even if I am banned here I will still believe in Peshitta and might set up my own web site if I am free
.

Dan: Please, forum, come to my aid. Although Kevin has not implied the notion of banning, I fear he'll sway Paul to do so. Please rise up against the Islamic beast in the name of all that's good and proper.

Quote:Peshitta is a Bible. Why should I go elsewhere if I wanted to turn this site into a "Bible club"? <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: --> Hmm... it is strange that it is okay to turn this site into Quranic club or Islamic debate club but not "Bible club." Where shall I go? <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: --> Should I set up my own Peshitta site? I could easily make it rank at number one in major search engines like Google.

Once more, I stood my ground. I'm not asking for members of the forum to hold Quranic memorization sessions, am I?

Quote:I guess I better stop posting in this forum because I am a "newcomer" here who is not as highly educated as others here. Furthermore, Paul Younan doesn't want me to turn this forum into "Bible club." I should go elsewhere where Peshitta is considered a Bible. Let me see what a veteran of this forum who is an "educated person who has written a term paper for a professor" could do to advance Aramaic primacy.

It just dawned on me how dramatic you are.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
Reply
#9
ograabe Wrote:February 22, 2005

To the person who said I should mind my own business, I suggest that he conduct private debates by personal e-mail rather than on this forum. If they are on this forum I assume they are intended to be viewed and responded to by all.

Otto

Main Entry: fo??rum
Pronunciation: 'fOr-&m, 'for-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural forums also fo??ra /-&/
Etymology: Latin; akin to Latin foris outside, fores door -- more at DOOR
1 a : the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business b : a public meeting place for open discussion c : a medium (as a newspaper) of open discussion or expression of ideas
2 : a judicial body or assembly : COURT
3 a : a public meeting or lecture involving audience discussion b : a program (as on radio or television) involving discussion of a problem usually by several authorities

Because this is a forum, it is a "public meeting place for open discussion" and an "expression of ideas." Therefore, my ideas are all intended to be viewed in the open.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
Reply
#10
Kevin,

I don't know what gets into you from time to time, whether it is another frustrated meeting with your father or what, but your challenges would mean more if they were given in person or with more respect to what debate is intended to be. A debate is not intended to insult but rather to exchange ideas. You have not given anybody any reason to believe that you want to do anything but argue. This is not debate, that is politics.

It comes across as rather sophomoric when one pastes dictionary definitions of common words. This is a ploy that I have seen hundreds (maybe thousands) of times with members of the Mormon sect. It does not further an atmosphere of fruitful debate.

The attitude you have is condescending and hateful. At your level of education you have no reason to be condescending. I am rarely condescending; it serves very little use in a forum like this or in my career.

If you believe the atrocities which have been attritibuted to the Muslims did not take place you are indeed, extremely, prejudiced. Do you seriously believe that the entire non-Muslim world made this stuff up? Surely, you are not that naive. The chip on your shoulder is not very becoming of someone with the ideals to which you one day wish to aspire. It is a rather unattractive quality.

I wish you would take an objective look at the origins of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, or even Mormonism. Then you will be able to make an informed decision, the kind of decision you have not made. The religious conclusion you have arrived at was one of a more visceral response than a cognitive decision.

I have read, with interest, your sojourn through the various faiths. Whether it was your intercourse with the Jewish physician (from, I believe, Maryland) or your discussions with those in this forum I have not sensed a longing to learn. I have sensed a yearning to lecture or find out some fact to spring on an unsuspetcing subject sometime in the future. Presumably, to show your own intellectual superiority.

Usually when I hear young men give opinions which I know is a parrotry of something they have been told I know that that young man is probably not smart enough to arrive at a reasonable conclusion based on the facts at hand himself. Kevin, you may be bright enough to arrive at these conclusions (you probably are) but these cut and paste jobs you do are very revealing. It reveals an inability to form opinions of your own.

You have the underdog mentality where you root for the underdog simply because he is the underdog and no other reason. I am at a loss in knowing what defect there is in your past to lead you in this path. Sometimes, my young friend, underdogs are underdogs for a good reason; they truly are inferior.

I give talks, speeches, and lectures frequently to men and women with at least 7 years post graduate education- post college graduate education (all with earned doctorates). I rarely come across people with the hatred and agenda I sense in you. Most, simply, want to learn. They may ask provactive questions (something you do at times yourself) but they rarely do this with venom.

I own a business which employs 22 people, all of whom respect me. They respect me not because of what I know or how much I can pay them. They respect me for who I am. I am not mean spirited, vindictive, or capricious. I am fair and treat them with respect. This is something that I hope you can do one day; respect others with differing opinions.

I employ three physicians, a nurse practioner, two nurses, a lab tech, and 15 other people. Physicians have their own mind and arrive at diagnoses in a systematic way. They do not always agree with each other, so they ask each other questions (second opinions). I hope that one day you will be mature enough to ask for a "second opinion" about a belief you may hold.

Your agenda is not to further Islam. At this point you may have convinced yourself that this is your true agenda, it is not. Your agenda is to prove how smart you really are, it's just that Islam has been your favorite subject the last two or three years. You major in the trivial and ignore the big picture.

Here is the big picture. Look at the world scene and tell me one nation, governed by Muslims, which has advanced the cause of peace. Egypt can't even claim that. True peace will only be found once you meet the Prince of Peace.

I hope you meet Him some day,
Keith
Reply
#11
bar_khela Wrote:A former member of this forum called the Peshitta a 'whore.' Paul immediately expelled him. You, among other condescending comments, compared Islam on a forum with 'Bible believers' to 'pornography.' This is offensive to me. Why shouldn't you be expelled for this crime against the forum?

Go ahead and persuade Paul Younan or moderators here to expel me. I don't feel the need to defend myself if you did not create a special thread of its own to portray me in bad light for the world out there to see as I don't want to feed a troll like you because I prefer to deprive you of the arguments you are craving for in this forum. Until I get banned, I will continue to defend myself against your false accusation here.

You once created a thread accusing Apostle Paul a liar. This is offensive to me. I am sure it is offensive to many Christians out there as well. Did I response to you by bashing your 'al insan al kamil'? No, I just leaved you alone as you don't want me to criticize you or your Islamic faith. It is okay for you to bash my Apostle Paul but it is not okay for others to bash your 'prophet', eh? You cried foul when you perceived others of attacking your religion but it is okay for you to bash others. Stop acting like a victim here! Stop acting innocent!


bar_khela Wrote:I do accept Ahadith now. However, I only accept Ahadith with the soundest of chains of transmission which can absolutely positively be traced back to the Prophet. With all that said, al-Bukhari is the most authentic according to scholars.

But rather or not the Hadith you've quoted is strong, weak, or fabricated, you've provided no substantial, historical (what actually happened evidence) to prove that Jews and Christians were really expelled from the Arabian Peninsula.


I don't give a damn about your cut and paste. Whether the hadith is strong, weak, or fabricated is not my problem. The hadith that I quoted is 'sahih' and I quoted it not to bash your religion but just stating the fact that the Assyrian Church been persecuted by the Muslims when you demanded proof. Why? Because Muslims lived their life according to Hadith not according to your cut and paste from web sites.


bar_khela Wrote:No, I will not be provoked. But if you can talk about his crucifixion and divinity, then so can I. My view is just as valid. You know why? Because this is not a Christian forum!

My mistake. I didn't know that my views or opinions are not valid as yours here. I didn't know that this is an Islamic forum. <!-- s:dontgetit: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/dontgetit.gif" alt=":dontgetit:" title="Dont Get It" /><!-- s:dontgetit: -->



bar_khela Wrote:
Quote:Last time you threatened to get me banned. Are you threatening to beat me up now? Do I understand you correctly?


Mentally, yes. Face to face, I'd have you sit down at my table in the kitchen. Then I'd go upstairs to bring down my suitcase of every source I have. What would you be able to say in face of reproductions purchased from the British Library?

That's why I'm always broke.

I will tell you that I am not impressed. I will be more impressed if you are not broke and spent your money wisely and prudently. Someone who goes broke just to build up his (low self-esteemed) ego so that he could be perceived by others as an intelligent man is surely not prudent.

Beware of little expenses. A small leak will sink a great ship. (Benjamin Franklin, the guy whose face on US$100 note ) <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: -->


bar_khela Wrote:My comment has nothing to do with maturity.

I fully agree 100%. <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: -->


bar_khela Wrote:You simply have no right to come here and dictate what can and cannot be said here. If I, a Muslim, want to debate with Paul about the Diatessaron, I will. If I, a Muslim, want to debate with him the inimitability of the Qu'ran and thousands of Assyrian Christians who abandoned Syriac for Arabic in order to learn the Qu'ran, I will.

I have no right whatsoever to dictate what can and cannot be said here but you have all the rights? Did I dictate to others what can and cannot be said here? I just gave my opinions that members should be focusing on Peshitta instead of debating on Islam which is more appropriate to be done at a forum dedicated to Islam such as <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://faithfreedom.org/forum/">http://faithfreedom.org/forum/</a><!-- m --> . They are allowed to disagree. I will not create a thread to bash them and demand apology from them if they disagree with me. After my comment, Paul Younan came out with forum rules thread and he stated there "then your question is best answered on the thousands of forums that are dedicated to theological debates. This is not one of them. That is a waste of our bandwidth, time and resources."
Today, bandwidth and hard disk space are very cheap. It was very expensive back then. At the moment the server could tolerate your "cut and paste" from anti Bible web sites. Can you imagine what would happen to Peshitta.org's server if 100 Muslims out there come to this site to bash Apostle Paul daily or to promote Islam?
Server Busy Error Message 502: The server is busy at this moment because members are too busy debating about Islam and discussing about Quran instead of Peshitta. Please come back later. By the way, if you are looking for a Bible, please go elsewhere because this is not a Bible club.

bar_khela Wrote:I don't want you banned. I want an open apology as I gave to Andrew.

I will not apologize to you even if you are the owner or moderator of this forum because I didn't do anything wrong. Go ahead and persuade your beloved friends to ban me.


bar_khela Wrote:
Quote:I might be a "newcomer" here and not contributing much to this forum like others or in your eyes as much as you do but I am sure many newcomers out there are contributing to promote the Peshitta more than you do - i.e "newcomers" or "Johnnys come lately" like Christopher Lancaster, Dave Bauscher, Jing, etc.

And the better performance goes to....

Leonardo DiCaprio as Howard Hughes in The Aviator. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->


bar_khela Wrote:
Quote:If you want to continue to promote your Islamic agenda here, it is up to you.

What agenda? You gave a quote, I threw a fit. Antecedent, Consequent.

It is okay for you to cut and paste to accuse Apostle Paul a liar and post links to anti-Bible, anti-Paul, anti-Christian web sites but it is not okay for me to quote the Hadith from Islamic web site. Oh, I forgot that you are Paul Younan's friend. Did I give any fit in this thread? Did I bash your 'prophet' in the following thread in retaliation as a consequences to your false accusation and cut and paste from Islamic web site?

<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=976&highlight=">viewtopic.php?t=976&highlight=</a><!-- l -->

It is okay for you to accuse us here as followers of a liar in this forum but it is not okay for us to defend ourselves. Should we decided to accuse your 'prophet' a liar you will surely cry foul like a victim here as not being loved and demand that we should be banned for insulting your 'prophet.'

And now you are accusing me here of being a hypocrite:

bar_khela Wrote:Again, you gave a quote, I threw a fit. If you do not mention Islam in a 'Christian forum,' then a Muslim has no need to be here to defend himself.

Antecedent, Consequent.

You're a hypocrite. You can strongly imply (without ever clearing stating) that my religion is full of hatred, ignorance, and bigotry, but I cannot refute you? When I give an explanation to your post, you want to tell me to take it outside to another forum?

You don't want a Islamic-Christian dialogue. You want a monologue. You want every member in this forum to gnash their teeth in agreement.


You can strongly imply that we are following a liar by the name Paul, but I cannot refute you? If I give an explanation in regards to your lies about Apostle Paul and attack your religion as a consequences to your thread attacking Apostle Paul, surely you will complain to Paul Younan and ask him to ban me for "insulting" your religion. Attacking Apostle Paul is offensive to me as you are accusing me of following a liar. I consider your post attacking Paul and link to anti-Paul web site as worse than pornography. That is my conviction. Others could disagree. I will surely not create a thread to bash others if they disagree with my conviction. Oh, once again I forgot. My views here are not valid. Only your views are valid.

Who is the one who wanted a monologue here? You want to have the freedom in this forum to attack Apostle Paul and our beliefs without having the consequences of retaliation from us. Once again, did I retaliate by attacking your 'prophet' in that pornographic thread of yours?

You need to cut and paste in order to express your thoughts so that you could be perceived by others as a learned educated man. You even need to cut and paste from a dictionary to explain simple words. Well, this is the age of the Internet. Any Tom, Dick, and Harry out there could appear as smart in his own eyes.


bar_khela Wrote:
Quote:This forum does not belong to me. All I can do is to give my opinions that members here should concentrate on Peshitta instead of wasting time on Islamic debates which could be held elsewhere (i.e. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/">http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/</a><!-- m --> ).

Fortunately, for had it been yours, you would have expelled me quicker like a papal authority would.

Poor Pope John Paul II. He is still recuperating from severe respiratory problems and now he has become a Muslim punching bag in this forum in order to refute me. <!-- sSad --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sad.gif" alt="Sad" title="Sad" /><!-- sSad --> Isn't your statement offensive to Catholics out there who considered the Pope as their leader? Should they demand a public apology from you as well? <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: -->

Pope John Paul II even forgave and blessed the Muslim Turk by the name Mehmet Ali Agca who tried to assasinate him in 1981. And now he is brought into this argument in order for you to refute me. Poor Pope John Paul II.

bar_khela Wrote:Cry me a river.

You fear me. You fear, since this is a 'Christian forum,' that I just might infiltrate through your faith or the faith of other Christians on this forum. Had you been confident about your faith, you'd welcome dialogue with me.

Who is crying like a baby here? You wanted to debate me through PM. I told you that I have no time for your antics as I come here to learn about Peshitta not about your religion. You wanted to "debate" and "dialogue" but when the other party criticized you or your religion you will cry foul and demand an apology or that the debate to be settled before Paul Younan. Remember your PM to me?

So mentally you wanted to beat me up badly, eh? <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> You are a very scary person but I am glad that I am taught to fear God alone.

You want to have the freedom to criticize others in this forum but at the same time you are denying the rights to others from criticizing you or your religion. Anyone that offended you should "be expelled for this crime", eh? Should anyone criticized you or your faith you will surely complain to your beloved friend Paul Younan. RFOL <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> Go ahead and complain and get me banned. Convince me once and for all that one of the moderators here is a Muslim.

You are not much different from many Muslims immigrants living in the Western world who are demanding the same rights with others to practise and propagate their religion freely but at the same time denying Christians their rights to propagate their faith in the Islamic world.


bar_khela Wrote:Dan: Please, forum, come to my aid. Although Kevin has not implied the notion of banning, I fear he'll sway Paul to do so. Please rise up against the Islamic beast in the name of all that's good and proper.

Have you forgotten how you wanted to see me banned in your PM to me not long ago? Scroll up and read your post earlier in this thread.

bar_khela Wrote:Why shouldn't you be expelled for this crime against the forum?

Don't tell lie in order to portray yourself as tolerant. Ask yourself whether deep down in your heart you wanted me to be banned. I don't know what is inside your heart. If you don't want me to be banned, then that is good with me. If you wanted me to be banned, then it is your right to believe what you wanted to believe.

Why should I be expelled from this forum? What crime have I committed? All I did was to express my sympathy and support to Assyrian Christians who were persecuted and discriminated. I do not come here to bash the Bible. I do not come here to accuse Apostle Paul a liar and post links to anti-Bible sites. I come here to learn from people like Paul Younan, Glenn Dave Bauscher, etc. If my presence here is not wanted just let me know. I will gladly leave and never come back. If there is a Muslim among the moderators of this forum or this forum partially belong to any Muslim out there, then let me know as I will surely no longer take part in this forum.


bar_khela Wrote:Once more, I stood my ground. I'm not asking for members of the forum to hold Quranic memorization sessions, am I?

You accused Apostle Paul as a liar in this thread and expect others not to attack your religion :

<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=976&highlight=">viewtopic.php?t=976&highlight=</a><!-- l -->

By the way, I did not attack your religion in retaliation to your offensive thread. So your so-called "Antecedent, Consequent" is not working on me. Wonder why? Because only a bad tempered person could be easily provoked by others to anger. That is why in his bad tempered mind he wanted to beat the other person "mentally."

bar_khela Wrote:Dan: Please, forum, come to my aid. Although Kevin has not implied the notion of banning, I fear he'll sway Paul to do so. Please rise up against the Islamic beast in the name of all that's good and proper.

I didn't say that! You said that! Don't put words into my mouth. You are defaming me!

bar_khela Wrote:It just dawned on me how dramatic you are.


Let us see who is the real "drama queen (or is it king in your case? Drama queen sounds nicer)" here:

<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1107&start=30">viewtopic.php?t=1107&start=30</a><!-- l -->

bar_khela Wrote:Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:36 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Forum,

I'm at the point of my life where every nuclei in my body is racing forth to tell me that it's time to become.

Therefore, I resign as a member of the forum. Farewell.


You made a formal announcement about your resignation from this forum and said farewell. I bade you farewell and praised you for making a wise decision. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Tell me honestly (because I don't know what is inside your heart), what do you expect others to say when you announced your resignation from this forum? Usually forum trolls like to bid farewell in the forum because they wanted to draw attention to themselves. They wanted others to say "Please don't go, etc." Do you want others to tell you "Please don't go we beg you. Please don't resign as we will surely miss your contribution in this forum! Please don't go we beg you as we need you to continue to cut and paste from Islamic web sites and attack Apostle Paul" ? Is that what you really wanted from others when you announced your resignation? Are you disappointed when I bade you farewell? <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

And now you are accusing me of being dramatic. Who is dramatic here? You announced your resignation to the whole world wide web and a moment later created a thread to wage a jihad (total war) against some forum members.

Since you are a cut and paste from Dictionary fan, let me help you by pasting the definition of "resign" here :

Quote:re??sign Pronunciation Key (r-zn)
v. re??signed, re??sign??ing, re??signs
v. tr.
To submit (oneself) passively; accept as inevitable: I resigned myself to a long wait in line.
To give up (a position, for example), especially by formal notification.
To relinquish (a privilege, right, or claim).

See Synonyms at relinquish.

v. intr.
To give up one's job or office; quit, especially by formal notification: resign from a board of directors.


Until I get banned, I will continue to defend myself against your false accusation here even though I don't like to waste my precious time with your antics because I have better things to do. You are trying to tarnish me in the public forum and I have no choice but to sacrifice my precious time to defend myself.


<!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

God bless you.
Reply
#12
Quote: Until I get banned, I will continue to defend myself against your false accusation here.

Admirable. However, I do not want you. I want to exchange ideas with Paul Younan, Andrew Gabriel Roth, and Keith. All three men are level-headed and are able to debate without aggrevating me, as you do. Maybe it's just me, but you have this tone to you when you refer to Muslims. Moreover, you don't want to learn about other faiths. You only want to herald your faith, which by Western standards, constitutes closemindedness.

Quote:You once created a thread accusing Apostle Paul a liar. This is offensive to me. I am sure it is offensive to many Christians out there as well. Did I response to you by bashing your 'al insan al kamil'? No, I just leaved you alone as you don't want me to criticize you or your Islamic faith. It is okay for you to bash my Apostle Paul but it is not okay for others to bash your 'prophet', eh? You cried foul when you perceived others of attacking your religion but it is okay for you to bash others. Stop acting like a victim here! Stop acting innocent!

You can bash the Prophet, if you choose. However, bashing him has no weight without historical evidence to make your argument sound.

You think the Prophet killed Christians (didn't happen)
You think the Prophet killed Jews (only one tribe that committed treason)


These are myths that you, and others, propagate around the forum.

Quote:I don't give a damn about your cut and paste. Whether the hadith is strong, weak, or fabricated is not my problem. The hadith that I quoted is 'sahih' and I quoted it not to bash your religion but just stating the fact that the Assyrian Church been persecuted by the Muslims when you demanded proof. Why? Because Muslims lived their life according to Hadith not according to your cut and paste from web sites.

OK


Quote:My mistake. I didn't know that my views or opinions are not valid as yours here. I didn't know that this is an Islamic forum. <!-- s:dontgetit: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/dontgetit.gif" alt=":dontgetit:" title="Dont Get It" /><!-- s:dontgetit: -->

I said my views are just as valid as yours, Dan. This makes are views equivalent.

If you cannot quote me without taking me out of content once, how then can you quote an Ayah or a Hadith without me being suspicious?


Quote:I will tell you that I am not impressed. I will be more impressed if you are not broke and spent your money wisely and prudently. Someone who goes broke just to build up his (low self-esteemed) ego so that he could be perceived by others as an intelligent man is surely not prudent.

Beware of little expenses. A small leak will sink a great ship. (Benjamin Franklin, the guy whose face on US$100 note ) <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: -->

Thanks Dad


Quote:I have no right whatsoever to dictate what can and cannot be said here but you have all the rights? Did I dictate to others what can and cannot be said here? I just gave my opinions that members should be focusing on Peshitta instead of debating on Islam which is more appropriate to be done at a forum dedicated to Islam such as <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://faithfreedom.org/forum/">http://faithfreedom.org/forum/</a><!-- m --> .

Then why ever mention Islam here? You did so to show that Muslims have persecuted the Assyrian Church for eons. OK. Well, a Muslim has the right to comment. That makes a dialogue


Quote:It was very expensive back then. At the moment the server could tolerate your "cut and paste" from anti Bible web sites. Can you imagine what would happen to Peshitta.org's server if 100 Muslims out there come to this site to bash Apostle Paul daily or to promote Islam?

If I go through an eBook in pdf. form, would you rather me 'cut and paste' or type every word from the eBook? Which is more cumbersome?

Every 'cut and paste' I've given has strengthened my argument. I've given you the author, the date, the publisher, and the pages. You, however, probably spent hours looking for one 'anti-Christian' Hadith out of thousands of Ahadith. Either that or you went to an anti-Quranic website to point you to that direction.

The Hadith you've quoted is peculiar. I will ask some scholars about it.


Quote:I will not apologize to you even if you are the owner or moderator of this forum because I didn't do anything wrong. Go ahead and persuade your beloved friends to ban me.

You act as though you're about to be beheaded in Rome.

Quote:It is okay for you to cut and paste to accuse Apostle Paul a liar and post links to anti-Bible, anti-Paul, anti-Christian web sites but it is not okay for me to quote the Hadith from Islamic web site.

I accused Paul of lacking Divine Inspiration at least once because he failed to discern the subtlety of the Epimendes' Paradox. I did not call him a liar. This is twice you've misquoted me in one post.

Quote:http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic....&highlight=

It is okay for you to accuse us here as followers of a liar in this forum but it is not okay for us to defend ourselves. Should we decided to accuse your 'prophet' a liar you will surely cry foul like a victim here as not being loved and demand that we should be banned for insulting your 'prophet.'

The Epimenides' Paradox is accuses all Cretans of being liars. I never called Paul a Cretan.

And now you are accusing me here of being a hypocrite:

bar_khela Wrote:Again, you gave a quote, I threw a fit. If you do not mention Islam in a 'Christian forum,' then a Muslim has no need to be here to defend himself.

Antecedent, Consequent.

You're a hypocrite. You can strongly imply (without ever clearing stating) that my religion is full of hatred, ignorance, and bigotry, but I cannot refute you? When I give an explanation to your post, you want to tell me to take it outside to another forum?

You don't want a Islamic-Christian dialogue. You want a monologue. You want every member in this forum to gnash their teeth in agreement.


Quote:You can strongly imply that we are following a liar by the name Paul, but I cannot refute you? If I give an explanation in regards to your lies about Apostle Paul and attack your religion as a consequences to your thread attacking Apostle Paul, surely you will complain to Paul Younan and ask him to ban me for "insulting" your religion. Attacking Apostle Paul is offensive to me as you are accusing me of following a liar. I consider your post attacking Paul and link to anti-Paul web site as worse than pornography. That is my conviction. Others could disagree. I will surely not create a thread to bash others if they disagree with my conviction. Oh, once again I forgot. My views here are not valid. Only your views are valid.

Who is the one who wanted a monologue here? You want to have the freedom in this forum to attack Apostle Paul and our beliefs without having the consequences of retaliation from us. Once again, did I retaliate by attacking your 'prophet' in that pornographic thread of yours?

You need to cut and paste in order to express your thoughts so that you could be perceived by others as a learned educated man. You even need to cut and paste from a dictionary to explain simple words. Well, this is the age of the Internet. Any Tom, Dick, and Harry out there could appear as smart in his own eyes.


bar_khela Wrote:
Quote:This forum does not belong to me. All I can do is to give my opinions that members here should concentrate on Peshitta instead of wasting time on Islamic debates which could be held elsewhere (i.e. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/">http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/</a><!-- m --> ).

Fortunately, for had it been yours, you would have expelled me quicker like a papal authority would.

Poor Pope John Paul II. He is still recuperating from severe respiratory problems and now he has become a Muslim punching bag in this forum in order to refute me. <!-- sSad --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sad.gif" alt="Sad" title="Sad" /><!-- sSad --> Isn't your statement offensive to Catholics out there who considered the Pope as their leader? Should they demand a public apology from you as well? <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: -->

Pope John Paul II even forgave and blessed the Muslim Turk by the name Mehmet Ali Agca who tried to assasinate him in 1981. And now he is brought into this argument in order for you to refute me. Poor Pope John Paul II.

bar_khela Wrote:Cry me a river.

You fear me. You fear, since this is a 'Christian forum,' that I just might infiltrate through your faith or the faith of other Christians on this forum. Had you been confident about your faith, you'd welcome dialogue with me.

Who is crying like a baby here? You wanted to debate me through PM. I told you that I have no time for your antics as I come here to learn about Peshitta not about your religion. You wanted to "debate" and "dialogue" but when the other party criticized you or your religion you will cry foul and demand an apology or that the debate to be settled before Paul Younan. Remember your PM to me?

So mentally you wanted to beat me up badly, eh? <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> You are a very scary person but I am glad that I am taught to fear God alone.

You want to have the freedom to criticize others in this forum but at the same time you are denying the rights to others from criticizing you or your religion. Anyone that offended you should "be expelled for this crime", eh? Should anyone criticized you or your faith you will surely complain to your beloved friend Paul Younan. RFOL <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> Go ahead and complain and get me banned. Convince me once and for all that one of the moderators here is a Muslim.

You are not much different from many Muslims immigrants living in the Western world who are demanding the same rights with others to practise and propagate their religion freely but at the same time denying Christians their rights to propagate their faith in the Islamic world.


bar_khela Wrote:Dan: Please, forum, come to my aid. Although Kevin has not implied the notion of banning, I fear he'll sway Paul to do so. Please rise up against the Islamic beast in the name of all that's good and proper.

Have you forgotten how you wanted to see me banned in your PM to me not long ago? Scroll up and read your post earlier in this thread.

bar_khela Wrote:Why shouldn't you be expelled for this crime against the forum?

Don't tell lie in order to portray yourself as tolerant. Ask yourself whether deep down in your heart you wanted me to be banned. I don't know what is inside your heart. If you don't want me to be banned, then that is good with me. If you wanted me to be banned, then it is your right to believe what you wanted to believe.

Why should I be expelled from this forum? What crime have I committed? All I did was to express my sympathy and support to Assyrian Christians who were persecuted and discriminated. I do not come here to bash the Bible. I do not come here to accuse Apostle Paul a liar and post links to anti-Bible sites. I come here to learn from people like Paul Younan, Glenn Dave Bauscher, etc. If my presence here is not wanted just let me know. I will gladly leave and never come back. If there is a Muslim among the moderators of this forum or this forum partially belong to any Muslim out there, then let me know as I will surely no longer take part in this forum.


bar_khela Wrote:Once more, I stood my ground. I'm not asking for members of the forum to hold Quranic memorization sessions, am I?

You accused Apostle Paul as a liar in this thread and expect others not to attack your religion :

<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=976&highlight=">viewtopic.php?t=976&highlight=</a><!-- l -->

By the way, I did not attack your religion in retaliation to your offensive thread. So your so-called "Antecedent, Consequent" is not working on me. Wonder why? Because only a bad tempered person could be easily provoked by others to anger. That is why in his bad tempered mind he wanted to beat the other person "mentally."

bar_khela Wrote:Dan: Please, forum, come to my aid. Although Kevin has not implied the notion of banning, I fear he'll sway Paul to do so. Please rise up against the Islamic beast in the name of all that's good and proper.

I didn't say that! You said that! Don't put words into my mouth. You are defaming me!

bar_khela Wrote:It just dawned on me how dramatic you are.


Let us see who is the real "drama queen (or is it king in your case? Drama queen sounds nicer)" here:

<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1107&start=30">viewtopic.php?t=1107&start=30</a><!-- l -->

bar_khela Wrote:Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:36 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Forum,

I'm at the point of my life where every nuclei in my body is racing forth to tell me that it's time to become.

Therefore, I resign as a member of the forum. Farewell.


You made a formal announcement about your resignation from this forum and said farewell. I bade you farewell and praised you for making a wise decision. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Tell me honestly (because I don't know what is inside your heart), what do you expect others to say when you announced your resignation from this forum? Usually forum trolls like to bid farewell in the forum because they wanted to draw attention to themselves. They wanted others to say "Please don't go, etc." Do you want others to tell you "Please don't go we beg you. Please don't resign as we will surely miss your contribution in this forum! Please don't go we beg you as we need you to continue to cut and paste from Islamic web sites and attack Apostle Paul" ? Is that what you really wanted from others when you announced your resignation? Are you disappointed when I bade you farewell? <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

And now you are accusing me of being dramatic. Who is dramatic here? You announced your resignation to the whole world wide web and a moment later created a thread to wage a jihad (total war) against some forum members.

Since you are a cut and paste from Dictionary fan, let me help you by pasting the definition of "resign" here :

Quote:re??sign Pronunciation Key (r-zn)
v. re??signed, re??sign??ing, re??signs
v. tr.
To submit (oneself) passively; accept as inevitable: I resigned myself to a long wait in line.
To give up (a position, for example), especially by formal notification.
To relinquish (a privilege, right, or claim).

See Synonyms at relinquish.

v. intr.
To give up one's job or office; quit, especially by formal notification: resign from a board of directors.


Until I get banned, I will continue to defend myself against your false accusation here even though I don't like to waste my precious time with your antics because I have better things to do. You are trying to tarnish me in the public forum and I have no choice but to sacrifice my precious time to defend myself.


<!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

God bless you.
[/quote]

<!-- sSleepy --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sleepy.gif" alt="Sleepy" title="Sleepy" /><!-- sSleepy -->

Bottom Line: If you talk about Muslims, Islam, Qu'ran, Hadiths, 'Jihad' (which means "striving" and not 'total war") or anything else regarding my faith in that tone which contrasts exponentially to your reverence of Christianity, expect me to reply. But don't tell me to take my free-willed ideas elsewhere. I belong here.

Another thing, keep reiterating the s a m e crybaby 'he hit me' argumentation as above, then you will further annoy me. You really don't know how to stay on point nor can you quote accurately. You just go on and on like a nagging mother.

Do not reply. Please spare me.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
Reply
#13
Keith,

Quote:I don't know what gets into you from time to time, whether it is another frustrated meeting with your father or what, but your challenges would mean more if they were given in person or with more respect to what debate is intended to be.

I'm working on it. I'm ill-tempered.

Quote:A debate is not intended to insult but rather to exchange ideas. You have not given anybody any reason to believe that you want to do anything but argue. This is not debate, that is politics.

I agree

Quote:It comes across as rather sophomoric when one pastes dictionary definitions of common words. This is a ploy that I have seen hundreds (maybe thousands) of times with members of the Mormon sect. It does not further an atmosphere of fruitful debate.

Otto implied that my logical construction was flawed because of the words "theology" and "theological," which are equivalents. So, I had to show him what Webster said about the matter.

But please do not compare me to the Mormon sect.

Quote:The attitude you have is condescending and hateful. At your level of education you have no reason to be condescending. I am rarely condescending; it serves very little use in a forum like this or in my career.

My attitude starts leveled until I am misquoted. Misquoting me and taking verses out of context really unleashes the monster in me.

Quote:If you believe the atrocities which have been attritibuted to the Muslims did not take place you are indeed, extremely, prejudiced. Do you seriously believe that the entire non-Muslim world made this stuff up? Surely, you are not that naive. The chip on your shoulder is not very becoming of someone with the ideals to which you one day wish to aspire. It is a rather unattractive quality.

bin Laden, for instance, is no more of a 'Muslim' in the original meaning of the word than a Southern Baptist slave owner is 'Christian.' You're insensitive with your language. Bin Laden, however, claims to adhere Islamic principles. But after close scrutiny of Islamic principles, his claims break down.

Many Muslims from all of the world have condemned terrorist actions:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php">http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php</a><!-- m -->

However, because there is no centralized authority in Islam as there is in Christianity, there is no "official" condemnation of al-Qaida's actions.

Quote:I wish you would take an objective look at the origins of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, or even Mormonism. Then you will be able to make an informed decision, the kind of decision you have not made. The religious conclusion you have arrived at was one of a more visceral response than a cognitive decision.

I've read everything from the Keys of Solomon to the earliest Kabbalistic manuscripts to the entire Christian Apocrypha. From all three books of Enoch to the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Quote:Usually when I hear young men give opinions which I know is a parrotry of something they have been told I know that that young man is probably not smart enough to arrive at a reasonable conclusion based on the facts at hand himself. Kevin, you may be bright enough to arrive at these conclusions (you probably are) but these cut and paste jobs you do are very revealing. It reveals an inability to form opinions of your own.

No, it reveals my reliance on the scholar's opinion. I'd only make a point if I was convinced of its validity and relevance to the discussion. I'd only quote a scholar in Oriential Studies to strengthen my argument.

These are not mere 'cut and paste' jobs similar to those of plagurism.

Quote:You have the underdog mentality where you root for the underdog simply because he is the underdog and no other reason. I am at a loss in knowing what defect there is in your past to lead you in this path. Sometimes, my young friend, underdogs are underdogs for a good reason; they truly are inferior.

And who is the underdog I'm rooting for?

Quote:I give talks, speeches, and lectures frequently to men and women with at least 7 years post graduate education- post college graduate education (all with earned doctorates). I rarely come across people with the hatred and agenda I sense in you. Most, simply, want to learn. They may ask provactive questions (something you do at times yourself) but they rarely do this with venom.

I can be venomous, but only when I hear something that I do not like. The forum enjoyed relative peace before Dan Gan quoted something that I objected to. Yes, Arabs have persecuted Assyrians for hundreds of years and many enslaved Nubian Muslim girls in the Sudan. But, by definition of the word 'Muslim,' they do not taste its honey and wine.

Quote:Your agenda is not to further Islam. At this point you may have convinced yourself that this is your true agenda, it is not. Your agenda is to prove how smart you really are, it's just that Islam has been your favorite subject the last two or three years. You major in the trivial and ignore the big picture.


Quote:Here is the big picture. Look at the world scene and tell me one nation, governed by Muslims, which has advanced the cause of peace. Egypt can't even claim that. True peace will only be found once you meet the Prince of Peace.

I do not yet understand most of the complexities of the Near East. Your last comment is politically charged and I have no interest in political science. However, I know the advancement of 'world peace' is a relatively new development probably unknown to a region that has never tasted long periods of peace. As you may know, many Muslims fight amongst themselves, which is seen daily in post-war Iraq

Finally, you make me want to become a better human being. Therefore, I would like to learn from you. I'm going to calm down now and listen to you because you're successful. Therefore, you have something to teach me. I'd be a fool to disregard you.

[/quote]
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
Reply
#14
Kevin,

I appreciate your latest post.

You said-But please do not compare me to the Mormon sect.

Me- I apologize I sure didn???t mean to do that.

You said- My attitude starts leveled until I am misquoted. Misquoting me and taking verses out of context really unleashes the monster in me.

Me- Then by all means, my friend, get that monster out of you. Jesus can take it out.

You said-Many Muslims from all over the world have condemned terrorist actions:

Me- There are a few but they seem to be silent. I am glad to hear that you condemn terrorists though.

You said-I've read everything from the Keys of Solomon to the earliest Kabbalistic manuscripts to the entire Christian Apocrypha. From all three books of Enoch to the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Me- That is quite an impressive list. This proves one thing though. It is a quality I admire in anyone (including you), the desire to learn. If you don???t mind a personal question. Why don???t you read commentaries form the men who lived their faith, intellectually challenged it, and came to the same conclusion as their heart? This is difficult because the heart can make one believe almost anything. By the ???men who lived their faith??? I am not confining this to any religion (Christian, Muslin, Jew, etc.), just a few men of faith from each religion.

You-And who is the underdog I'm rooting for?

Me- Kevin, think about your interests. You are a black man (minority), who had an interest in Judaism (also a minority), then you came to Eastern Christianity like the CoE (certainly in the minority among Christian denominations), and you finally ended with Islam (in this country also a minority).

I don???t know what ???defect??? I have either because I have an interest in those same subjects. I actually quit the Mormon Church when I was 20 years old based on large part to their bigoted history. Think about the last time you watched the Super Bowl, World Series, NBA championship, or the Stanley Cup when you didn???t have an interest in either of the teams competing. What team did you root for? Probably the underdog, I find this true in my life.

You-I can be venomous, but only when I hear something that I do not like.

Me- Maturity will go a long way in helping lose the venom but it must be accompanied with a change of heart too. The only religion which can change you is a relationship with Jesus Christ. Think about your life, you???re still the same person you were 5 years ago. You are more mature now than you were then but your anger remains and has only worsened. I would like to invite to Christ.

You- Finally, you make me want to become a better human being. Therefore, I would like to learn from you. I'm going to calm down now and listen to you because you're successful. Therefore, you have something to teach me. I'd be a fool to disregard you.

Me- Me too. I???d like to learn the good in Islam maybe you can help me. Thank you.

Finally, and I had no idea about your relationship with your father initially but the tone of your replies was very telling and just by reading your posts over the years I think I know you fairly well. I want you to do everything you can to repair your familial relationship. It will change your outlook about Deity. You may have to just kind of ???suck it up??? with your Dad and just be respectful even if he is wrong about certain things.

I believe once you have a solid foundation in that aspect of your life then (and only then) your life will take on a whole new outlook.

Your friend,
Keith
Reply
#15
Keith,

Quote:Me- Kevin, think about your interests. You are a black man (minority), who had an interest in Judaism (also a minority), then you came to Eastern Christianity like the CoE (certainly in the minority among Christian denominations), and you finally ended with Islam (in this country also a minority).

Because I have no culture, no native tongue, no customs of my own, I can become anything I choose to be. I've never felt 'black' nor 'this' or 'that.' I am but 'bar-Khela.' There is freedom in this.

Quote:Me- Maturity will go a long way in helping lose the venom but it must be accompanied with a change of heart too. The only religion which can change you is a relationship with Jesus Christ. Think about your life, you???re still the same person you were 5 years ago. You are more mature now than you were then but your anger remains and has only worsened. I would like to invite to Christ.

The source of my anger is the bad qualities that I see in myself.

Once, there was a lion who went into the jungle to chase an enemy. Soonafter, the lion came across a lake. Looking inside the lake, the lion saw the image of himself. Supposing it was his enemy, he sprung into the lake only to drown.

I am very competitive. I do not like others to surpass me in anything that I hold precious. Although I have talent and the realization that I can do anything open to man, I lack self-discipline and patience with myself. Therefore, I am never happy with myself.

Quote:Finally, and I had no idea about your relationship with your father initially but the tone of your replies was very telling and just by reading your posts over the years I think I know you fairly well. I want you to do everything you can to repair your familial relationship. It will change your outlook about Deity. You may have to just kind of ???suck it up??? with your Dad and just be respectful even if he is wrong about certain things.

I believe once you have a solid foundation in that aspect of your life then (and only then) your life will take on a whole new outlook.

I have not seen my father for eight years nor have I ever connected with him.

However, if you want to find a early source of this vibrating anger inside me, you'd have to go back to my interactions with my mother's father.

My grandfather, religious himself yet does everything to contradict his convictions, was very hard on me in my early years. He shunned my free mindedness and sought for me to become what he wanted.

What I hate about him the most is that he reminds me so much of myself: He is arrogant.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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