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Acts 2:24 Redux
#46
Dave,

You have impugned the character of every member of Peshitta.org with this comment; "Yes Paul, you have that following here, and I'm the Judas, but what about the scholarly world and the following of God's people?"

You owe me an apology. Why do you think that my opinion is based on what Paul said simply because he is the one who said it? Do you not believe that I can think for myself?

I happen to agree with Paul not because he was the one who rebutted you but because of the soundness of his argument. If you had articulated his position and he articulated your's then I would be agreeing with you not him. It is the rationale with which I agree not necessarily Paul. The fact is simple; he is right.

Kind Regards,
Keith
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#47
Keith,

Am I making you feel guilty over something here?

Leave the particulars to Paul and I as that exchange we had was between the two of us for the most part. If your affected by what we may have said to each other I would say leave it be. In fact, if you had noticed that Paul was all over me with a myriad of accusations of racism and the such, but stuff like that does not phase me if I am not that way. I don't strike up positions in defense of some sort of insecurity when I'm not.

For the most part, Paul and I stuck to the particulars of what we were arguing over. We covered a lot of ground.

God has an interesting way of doing things with His people, things that are quite a distance ahead of the immediate thought of most. What Paul and I just went through may have some far reaching things that God is opening up to people, who knows. I know a lot of folks were watching it, not just the regulars on here.

Maybe this is the end result of it;

Luke 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Who knows huh? Truth is truth and people hate the messenger all the time.
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#48
Dave,
You wrote:
Quote:God is of life, not death.

If you wish to believe that God will bring you into the fold and give you all these good things He talks about to just throw you to the dogs to be butchered at will, well,....... you and I are worshipping a different God, and you have an entirely different understanding and experience from mine.

You also wrote & quoted:

Quote:Maybe this is the end result of it;

Luke 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.



Who knows huh? Truth is truth and people hate the messenger all the time.
Which statement do you stand by? You cannot have it both ways.

Dave, which of the prophets was not butchered ? Which of the apostles was not butchered ? Paul, who wrote most of the NT, had his head cut off. Simon Peter was crucified upside down. James was killed with a sword. John was boiled in oil.
Stephen was stoned to death. Most were murdered for their faith in our Lord.


Who hates you ? What have you suffered compared to them? It is not prosperity that proves faith; it is willingness to suffer and die for Christ that proves faith and love to God. The Western Christian suffers nothing compared to those in the East. Who are we to condemn whole populations of believers because they suffer , and trumpet our great faith because we don't ? Read Hebrews 11:32-40 .

That is backwards thinking; it certainly is 180 degrees out of phase with the scripture you quoted.
I here add the three verses in Luke 6 following those you quoted:

24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.


The Apostle Paul noted how we prove ourselves to be God's servants in 2 Cor. 6:4-10:

4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
5 In stripes( floggings), in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

Eternal Life comes with much suffering, as our Lord said. Those who shun the cross cannot be His disciples :

Lu 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Lu 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Lu 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.


He did not come to call us to be Christians. He came to make disciples. There is a big difference between the two !

Does "the Holy Spirit" tell you different ? If so, then you follow a lying spirit of antichrist. The Holy Spirit will not contradict His Holy Word.

Amen.

Dave
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#49
Dave Wrote:In fact, if you had noticed that Paul was all over me with a myriad of accusations of racism and the such, but stuff like that does not phase me if I am not that way.

I don't level charges of racism lightly. If you go back and read comments you have made in previous posts like "If God wanted to witness to the Aramaic, He would have made it known to His people".....like, HELLO, what are we???....chopped liver???

Have you forgotten how many centuries we were believers before the Message even reached your corner of the planet? Humble yourself, my dear man. We baptized you, not the other way around.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#50
Shlama akhi Paul,

I thought you would have asked Dave where the Peshitta reading of Acts 2:24 came from , instead of the Greek ? "Shyol"- (Heb."Sheol" ) is used twice in The Peshitta verse 24; "Shyol" would not come from "Thanatou", and "Thanatou" occurs only once. The Greek equivalent for "Shyol" is "Hades". "Hades" does not occur in the Greek texts of verse 24.

Burktha,

Dave
Get my NT translations, books & articles at :
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#51
Quote:"If God wanted to witness to the Aramaic, He would have made it known to His people".....like, HELLO, what are we???....chopped liver???

Paul, if you want to take that as racism from me, you are welcome to, by all means have at it, I'm not going to stop you, be my guest. If in your mind whatever I say and others is twisted to mean racism, hey, you just go ahead and think what you want.

I would say that it would be quite futile to make me feel guilty of it though since you would be taking what I said out of context and attempting to make me say something I didn't.

The context is about language not personnel. "If God wanted to witness to the aramaic (as in utilize it daily in the lives of His people for His works and power), He would have made it known to His people (the body of Christ)."

God is not about culture so I don't see why anyone would be interested in it. In fact, after The Lords death, He removed the understanding of the scriptures from the hebrew people and went about changing everything, even the language that His word is promoted in, even the very direction that it is written in. Currently, the languages that are used are completely foreign to what they originally were in form. For example, our english utilizes a more advanced set of vowles than the Hebrew and the sister languages do.

God is now able to reach out to the world and accept who would accept Him and what His Son accomplished. God don't care about color nor is He limited to one particular branch of people anymore, He accepts all the colors of mankind.

Culture is not an important thing anymore, and I don't understand why you would even attempt to level the idea of racism at me, my first wife was black.



Dave, I thought you wasn't talking to me anymore and you had some very important things you were doing? I said ok to that, no problem, as they were probably things that would save more souls for God.
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#52
He has made it known to His People, Dave. Long before you came around, He made it known to all the people who were part of Aramaic-based Christianity....including Jews, Arabs, Arameans, Assyrians, Indians, Persians, Afghanis, Turks, Uzbeks, Kurds, Pakistanis, Chinese, Malaysian, Filipino, Korean, Japanese, Siberian, Mongol....I could go on and on.

No, He is not a respecter of culture or a specific race of people. But for you to insinuate that this is something limited to Assyrians or Jews is irresponsibly uneducated on your part. For your information, even today the vast majority of the Church of the East is non-Assyrian, ethnically. They don't even speak Aramaic as their native tongue. But they venerate Aramaic like you venerate the Greek.

Assyrians have always been the minority in the CoE. Aramaic-speakers have always been in the minority in the CoE. Can you comprehend that we are, and have always been, a universal church?

Ours is an ethnic movement, but yours is not?

Of course not. The Greek church is an ethnic church as well. However, you have no intention of questioning their claims to primacy and would never dream of insinuating that their claims to primacy are simply "cultural pride."

God cared enough about converting the Greeks westward that He decided to compose the written account of the Aramaic Gospel in the Greek language, but He didn't care enough about converting the Arameans eastward to preserve (not translate) the Aramaic Gospel in some written form?

And that line of thinking isn't racist? Why should God have translated the Aramaic preaching of Jesus into the Greek language to form the "original" NT, but God not have preserved the originally Aramaic preaching of Jesus into.....guess what? Aramaic?

Weren't those millions of Aramaic-speaking Gentiles in the vicinity of Jerusalem and to the East of Jerusalem worthy of salvation? Worthy of receiving a text of scripture in their own language so they could understand what the message was? The Message originally delivered in their own language, anyway?

Do you not see how ludicrous that is?

And then you have the gall to say that God "removed" the understanding from the Hebrew people. If it were not for the Hebrew people who followed God's command, and their Messiah, who came and baptized your predecessors the Greeks, you would still be worshipping trees.

Have some respect, for Chrissakes. One would have thunk that being on that military ship and seeing the world the way you have would have brought you to the realization that the world doesn't center around you. Apparently not.

As soon as you presume to exclude Aramaic-speakers from the "Body of Christ", then you have come off as racist to me and to anyone else here who happens to be in the same ethno-linguistic group as I.

God is witnessing to the Aramaic, as He always has. Open your eyes. That's why you are here, and won't leave us alone. That's why Gibson's film came out. He certainly witnessed to Mel Gibson about Aramaic, didn't He. And to the millions upon tens of millions, across the globe, who saw the movie.

This is evidence we have here, son. This evidence will hold up in any public forum, in any court setting. Either you have an answer for our evidence, or you don't.

This is a simple example. I purposely chose it because it requires no intimate knowledge of either Aramaic or Greek grammar.

What are you going to do with the harder stuff? Brush me aside all you want. Claim I have some sort of brain-washed following here. I don't care for any of it. I have the feeling right now to just shut the damn thing off altogether. I'm not selling you anything. I could care less what you believe. I'm here for those who want to question the currently accepted dogmas. I'm here to share whatever knowledge and talent God has given me for the sake of those interested in the same topic, and who believe, as I do, the ridiculous assumption that the teaching of Christ were actually cared about enough to be preserved in the original language and setting. I know it's an unreasonable assumption, I know.

You are free to go, why are you here if you are not interested in this topic?
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#53
"I have the feeling right now to just shut the damn thing off altogether"

Please Akhi, I think we all would rather you to stop arguing with Dave rather than let him make you crazy and "shut this damn thing off". Don't stop your vital work because of a few bad apples. That's what Satan would want bro. And perhaps that is what he is doing by having his servants come here.
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#54
Quote:Ours is an ethnic movement, but yours is not?


Really, your talking to the wrong guy on that subject Paul, I really don't care for culturistic issues, I really just don't care one bit about it.

My great grandfather was a german jew who left germany on my dads side of the family, My moms side is also german with chocktaw indian mixed in.

Do you see me holding that jewish side of me up like that is something important here to anyone, as if I am something?

"Hey look at me, I'm a jew now, you gotta give me special appreciatation just because of that fact!!"

Yea right.

Really, your talking to the wrong person if you are trying to label me in regards to racial issues.

Quote:The Greek church is an ethnic church as well. However, you have no intention of questioning their claims to primacy and would never dream of insinuating that their claims to primacy are simply "cultural pride."

I don't get it, I do not care about the greek standardized text either but your saying that I defend it? I put it down quite a few times in these posts also. I want originality. I lean towards the western text of the 1st to 3rd centuries instead of the standardized texts. Just because it is greek doesn't matter to me.

Quote:Weren't those millions of Aramaic-speaking Gentiles in the vicinity of Jerusalem and to the East of Jerusalem worthy of salvation? Worthy of receiving a text of scripture in their own language so they could understand what the message was? The Message originally delivered in their own language, anyway?

Do you not see how ludicrous that is?

Well yes, they are entitled to the good news like anyone in the world. I wish those who were so near to the heart of it all would have provided us a text that resembled the 1st to 3rd century texts. Then I would have been astonished beyond all belief!

Quote:And then you have the gall to say that God "removed" the understanding from the Hebrew people. If it were not for the Hebrew people who followed God's command, and their Messiah, who came and baptized your predecessors the Greeks, you would still be worshipping trees.

Again, your taking what I say in the wrong light, or I'm not conveying my thoughts exact enough, or something.

Did not the jews have the message brought to them first then God went to the world? These are the hebrews I talk about, these are the people who would not receive Jesus and His ministry and rejected Him. Now, did not God remove everything from them? Yes He did. Everything. There are no prophets that arise out of the jews anymore, and your certainly not going to see a born again jew.

All of God's protection, all of His spoken words, all of His miracles, gone from those people. It was God's way of doing it, He made the decision in this.

Quote:As soon as you presume to exclude Aramaic-speakers from the "Body of Christ", then you have come off as racist to me and to anyone else here who happens to be in the same ethno-linguistic group as I.

Yes, I do not like this syriac text. Why? Because it is standardized just like the majority of greek texts are. I want originality and truth, and until I see God directing me and others to use this text and there could never be anthing better, then I will.

Now where you get that because I do not like a syriac text as I hate aramaic speakers such as yourself, or greek speakers for that matter, I'll leave that for you to figure out.

Quote:What are you going to do with the harder stuff? Brush me aside all you want. Claim I have some sort of brain-washed following here. I don't care for any of it. I have the feeling right now to just shut the damn thing off altogether. I'm not selling you anything. I could care less what you believe. I'm here for those who want to question the currently accepted dogmas. I'm here to share whatever knowledge and talent God has given me for the sake of those interested in the same topic, and who believe, as I do, the ridiculous assumption that the teaching of Christ were actually cared about enough to be preserved in the original language and setting. I know it's an unreasonable assumption, I know.

Really, I wish it was that easy.


"My people die for a lack of knowledge"

To have an acceptable sacrifice to God, one must touch His heart. To touch His heart is to help the body of Christ, His people.

What God has for me to do will directly impact the body of Christ. We are parts of one another. If what I do has no relevence in that regards, it's as if I did nothing for Him the whole time that I knew Him here.

I don't know how others feel, but I think that is one of the most reasonable measuring lines of ourselves to Him, and should help gauge if we are doing His will or our own.

As long as I have the right intentions and follow Him and His plans in that regards, then things are ok. I think many people should look at themselves some in this light.
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