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"Losing Jesus' Language"
judge Wrote:
Andrew Gabriel Roth Wrote:If you have never heard of the idea of people who want to exist as Jews in Israel but not kill every Palestinian around them, then that only strengthens my point about the lies and anti-Semitism that is festering in the world.

Well I do agree there is a lot of resentment towards Israel around the planet and some is quite justified IMHO.


I see. I never said Israel was perfect. I only said it had a right to peacefully exist within secure borders. No government on earth is perfect. But the fact is that Israel kept all the provisions of the Oslo Accord to at least some degree whereas the Palestinians kept none. WHy Michael do not feel for the children blown up by suicide bombers on schoolbuses as much as you do for Palestinians? It sounds to me that you simply have not taken the time to read up on this matter.

I suupose that if one has the belief that God has given this piece of land to "jews" (and one can of course even convert ) then at some point this impies violence, even if it is only to defend this right.

I for example have come to the conclusion that modern jews have no special relationship with God and no special rights.


Not special rights Michael. The SAME rights that any other people have to their country. My people have 3000 years of archaeology backing up their rights to live in their country. Many people today live in countries with a far less strong claim. For example, let's take Australia. Your people displaced the Aboriginal people who had been there for thousands of years. You started off as a penal colony with NO TIES to the land. NO history in the area and NO archaeology to press your "rights" to live there. The only qualifications you had were superior weapons. And yes, the same could be said of the United States and the shameful way it dealt witht he Lakota, the Cheyenne and hundreds of other native nations too numerous to mention.

My point is not to bash Australia or indeed the US. My point is that both countries are populated and ruled by people who don't have 1/100th of the legitamacy to that land as my people do for Israel. If you can allow it for yourselves, then why not for the Jews?

See, that's what happens when people, even unintentionally and unconsciously, get prejudiced against a group of others that they do not understand. They start talking SPECIAL RIGHTS when what is needed are EQUAL RIGHTS for that group.

And EQUAL RIGHTS for Israel does not mean suppressing the Palestinian people either. It simply means that Jews have a right to live in a Jewish state that, like the rest of the nations of the world, has multi racial populations in their midst that participate in the society at large.

From my pespective this does not mean that all zionists are evil but it does mean that all ziominist are misguided if they beleive they have a divine right.


Do you believe the Bible then? I mean, it's one thing for Bar Khela, as a Muslim, to allege tampering of Torah. It's quite another for a Christian to do so, because our Savior quoted from that Torah and the Apostle Paul called the Torah "holy, just and good" (Romans 7:12) and worth "establishing/standing upon" (Romans 3:31). Romans 11 said that YHWH's promises to the Jews were "IRREVOCABLE".

What were those promises then Akhi, if not the land from Dan to Beersheba? Search the Scriptures and tell me how else to read them IN CONTEXT AND TOGETHER. These are just a few I could give:

Genesis 17
1 When Abram was 99 years old, the Lord appeared to him, saying, "I am God Almighty. Live in My presence and be devout. 2 I will establish My covenant between Me and you, and I will multiply you greatly."

3 Then Abram fell to the ground, and God spoke with him:

4 "As for Me, My covenant is with you, and you will become the father of many nations. 5 Your name will no longer be Abram, but your name will be Abraham, for I will make you the father of many nations. 6 I will make you extremely fruitful and will make nations and kings come from you.

7 I will keep My covenant between Me and you, and your offspring after you throughout their generations, as an everlasting covenant to be your God and the [God] of your offspring after you. 8 And to you and your offspring after you I will give the land where you are residing-all the land of Canaan-as an eternal possession, and I will be their God."

Psalms 137:1-6
1 By the rivers of Babylon-
there we sat down and wept
when we remembered Zion. 2 There we hung up our lyres
on the poplar trees, 3 for our captors there asked us for songs,
and our tormentors, for rejoicing:
";Sing us one of the songs of Zion."; 4 How can we sing the Lord's song
on foreign soil? 5 If I forget you, Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget [its skill]. 6 May my tongue stick to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not exalt Jerusalem as my greatest joy!

Isaiah 49:13-17
13 Shout for joy, you heavens!
Earth, rejoice!
Mountains break into joyful shouts!
For the Lord has comforted His people,
and will have compassion on His afflicted ones. 14 Zion says, "The Lord has abandoned me;
The Lord has forgotten me!" 15 "Can a woman forget her nursing child,
or lack compassion for the child of her womb?
Even if these forget,
yet I will not forget you. 16 Look, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands;
your walls are continually before Me. 17 Your builders hurry;
those who destroy and devastate you will leave you.

I hope you can understand that this is a view I have come to whilst trying to understand as best I can.

Anyway , hope you understand this is just my view.

I am not anti-semitic or anti anyone. I I should treat all emn equally without showing favour.


I'm not mad at you Michael. I do think though, in all respect and peace, that you are simply not informed. If you would truly wish to understand as best you can, I am more than happy to show you the verses that call the land of Israel the eternal home of Isaac's descendants through his father Abraham, and the eternal city of the Judean David, and of Messiah, also from Judah. Do you need these verses because I will bring them to bear.

And if you want to treat all men equally, then don't deny my people the same rights everyone else has to live in peace in their own country. I pray you understand this in the spirit I intend, which is one of peace and that you test the Scriptures for yourself.

One more thing for the record: I really wish you guys would understand what "chosen people" really means. It has NOTHING to do with my ethnicity. It has EVERYTHING to do with hearing the voice of YHWH and obeying His Torah. That is the core teaching of the NT as well, because "Abraham believed Elohim and it was counted to him as righteousness" and "Whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my mother and my sister and my brother." THOSE are the chosen people. If an Israeli is wicked, he is not chosen (Jeremiah 9). If a Gentile is righteous, then he is chosen ( the apostle Paul). But if YHWH did not spare the natural branches, he won't spare you either (also Romans 11).

Furthermore, the covenant is with Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31-34) and those who are counted as such because they joined to the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2). One Torah for Jew and for foreigner, and that includes the NT. There is no covenant with Babylon, with Philistia, or with Egypt. Only with Israel and those who believe that YHWH spoke to Moses, and the prophets and Y'shua, and gave us instructions to live by. That means everyone, not just my folk. I hope that is clear.
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

Messages In This Thread
"Losing Jesus' Language" - by oozeaddai - 02-05-2005, 05:36 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-05-2005, 10:25 PM
[No subject] - by Dan Gan - 02-06-2005, 01:22 AM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-06-2005, 09:15 AM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-06-2005, 01:47 PM
[No subject] - by Dan Gan - 02-06-2005, 01:58 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-06-2005, 02:21 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-06-2005, 02:33 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-06-2005, 03:00 PM
[No subject] - by Dan Gan - 02-06-2005, 03:48 PM
Christ incarnate is in our midst - by gbausc - 02-06-2005, 05:07 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-06-2005, 06:23 PM
[No subject] - by peshitta_enthusiast - 02-06-2005, 06:51 PM
[No subject] - by Dan Gan - 02-06-2005, 07:47 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-06-2005, 08:16 PM
[No subject] - by oozeaddai - 02-07-2005, 03:54 AM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-07-2005, 06:41 PM
Not having it. - by bar_khela - 02-07-2005, 08:05 PM
Re: Not having it. - by Dan Gan - 02-08-2005, 02:24 AM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-08-2005, 03:22 AM
Re: Not having it. - by bar_khela - 02-08-2005, 09:32 PM
[No subject] - by bar_khela - 02-08-2005, 10:06 PM
Michael the Elder - by bar_khela - 02-09-2005, 05:12 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-09-2005, 05:22 PM
'Put to the Sword' - by bar_khela - 02-09-2005, 06:17 PM
[No subject] - by bar_khela - 02-09-2005, 06:47 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-09-2005, 11:15 PM
[No subject] - by bar_khela - 02-10-2005, 12:35 AM
I don't believe this - by Andrew Gabriel Roth - 02-10-2005, 01:14 AM
Re: I don't believe this - by bar_khela - 02-10-2005, 08:24 PM
Re: I don't believe this - by Andrew Gabriel Roth - 02-11-2005, 01:44 AM
[No subject] - by oozeaddai - 02-13-2005, 02:55 PM
[No subject] - by Dan Gan - 02-13-2005, 07:33 PM
Re: I don't believe this - by bar_khela - 02-14-2005, 03:39 PM
[No subject] - by bar_khela - 02-14-2005, 05:21 PM
[No subject] - by Andrew Gabriel Roth - 02-14-2005, 11:04 PM
[No subject] - by judge - 02-14-2005, 11:32 PM
[No subject] - by Andrew Gabriel Roth - 02-15-2005, 12:00 AM
[No subject] - by judge - 02-15-2005, 08:48 PM
[No subject] - by bar_khela - 02-15-2005, 11:13 PM
[No subject] - by Andrew Gabriel Roth - 02-16-2005, 01:43 AM
[No subject] - by Andrew Gabriel Roth - 02-17-2005, 12:17 AM
[No subject] - by bar_khela - 02-17-2005, 03:38 PM
[No subject] - by bar_khela - 02-18-2005, 12:36 AM
[No subject] - by Uma - 02-18-2005, 03:50 PM
[No subject] - by bar_khela - 02-18-2005, 04:12 PM
Islam and Allah - by shimoun63 - 02-18-2005, 04:42 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-18-2005, 06:20 PM
ALLAH IS A ZIONIST - by Uma - 02-18-2005, 06:27 PM
[No subject] - by oozeaddai - 02-18-2005, 07:04 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-18-2005, 07:11 PM
[No subject] - by bar_khela - 02-18-2005, 09:09 PM
[No subject] - by oozeaddai - 02-19-2005, 03:07 AM
[No subject] - by Dan Gan - 02-19-2005, 05:18 AM
[No subject] - by shimoun63 - 02-19-2005, 08:26 AM
[No subject] - by Andrew Gabriel Roth - 02-19-2005, 02:18 PM
[No subject] - by Dan Gan - 02-20-2005, 04:20 AM
[No subject] - by oozeaddai - 02-21-2005, 01:40 AM

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