02-11-2005, 01:44 AM
Son of Thunder,
You misinterpreted me.
To be honest, I care less about the political situation in Israel. I only wanted to show Paul how one Rabbi felt about Arabs. My point was to show how Jews and Arabs coexisted in relative peace for centuries without war.
AGR:
I did not misunderstand you Akhi Bar Khela. Your general points were well taken. The PROBLEM was the way you arrived there. Let's see that quote again:
Today???s wicked Zionists are just like their predecessors, who were responsible for causing terrible suffering in Palestine with their wars with the Arabs, may G-d have mercy.
COMMENT: I am a Zionist, therefore you are calling me wicked. Furthermore, you are calling my ancestors wicked. You don't even attempt to say what you would feel are "Zionist extremists" (where I would still have issue, but it would be less. Instead it's just Zionists. All Zionists--meaning almost all Jews that live in Israel. And you can't understand the problem? I believe that Israel has a right to exist as the eternal home of the Hebrew people, within secure and ANCIENT borders, established by the Torah itself, and this brings me to your next point:
At that time in 1929, the Zionists had a slogan arguing that the Western Wall in Jerusalem was a Jewish ???national symbol.??? Of course, the Arabs disagreed with this idea, considering that they had control of the location for over 1,100 years. However, the Zionist mobs were yelling that ???The Wall is ours!??? It???s hard to understand why they felt that way considering they have no connection to the Jewish holy places whatsoever.
COMMENT:
Jews have NO RIGHT to Jewish holy places? Really, did I read that right? The last part of Herod's Temple, built by Jews, for Jews, do not belong to Jews? But Palestinians there in 1929 do have all the rights to it? I see. Again, Torah begs to differ. It does not matter how long the Arabs had control--the Jews were given ETERNAL CONTROL, if you take the Bible seriously that is. If the Arabs want peace, let them live with us, but they cannot and will not replace us. Well let's go on then:
An argument erupted in the Jewish newspapers about establishing a permanent prayer area for Jews at the Wall. This provoked the Arabs, and the rabbi of Jerusalem at the time, Rabbi Yosef Chaim Zonnenfeld begged them to stop and to be appreciative to the Arabs for allowing Jews to pray at the Wall for so many centuries undisturbed. However, the Zionists wanted a permanent setup under their control.
AGR:
And who attacked Israel the moment it was re-established, the rabbis? I think not. We were exiled since 70 CE, and you cannot fathom that after all that time we would want to be in control of our own holy places built by our ancestors? What if we wanted to go to Mecca and take over your mosques just because we lived in Saudi Arabia for a long time, but not as long as your people did? How would you feel?
To your other point, it may be that some rabbis were trepidatious about full transfer of control too quickly. I can respect that to a degree. But you seem to think that only a few Jews wanted their rights restored to their own sanctuaries, and this is not true.
It was in Muslim Spain that the Rambam composed "Guide for the Perplexed"
AGR:
Not contested. I never said there were never periods of peacful co-existence. I had a problem with the fact that all Zionists are wicked in your view. Is this clear yet?
My point is that Muslims, who actually adhere by the Qu'ran and the lifestyle of the Prophet, do not go around killing Jews and Christians. I cannot make my point clearer.
AGR:
Let me see if I can find some verses that say otherwise. I had them some time back. I seem to recall one that went "If you see a Jew, kill him." As for his "lifestyle", your prophet was at war frequently and killed many Jews and Christians with his own sword. And I know what Jihad is, okay?
Secondly, I have not forgotten about the kindness you've shown me throughout the years.[/quote]
AGR:
Glad to know that Akhi (notice I still call you Akhi). However, if you respect me, consider my feelings about your DEFINITIONS. To deny my people the right to exist in their native land (I do not deny Palestinians the right to be in Israel) that is RACISM--even Martin Lut her King Jr. said that, and I will find the quote if I have to during Black History Month no less. And, given your wonderful heritage, I would think you could relate to a small tribal group forced from their land, hated and massacred by the world and even denied when they return to their land by a greater power.
A Zionist is no more wicked than anyone else who wants to defend their home.
Understand now?
You misinterpreted me.
To be honest, I care less about the political situation in Israel. I only wanted to show Paul how one Rabbi felt about Arabs. My point was to show how Jews and Arabs coexisted in relative peace for centuries without war.
AGR:
I did not misunderstand you Akhi Bar Khela. Your general points were well taken. The PROBLEM was the way you arrived there. Let's see that quote again:
Today???s wicked Zionists are just like their predecessors, who were responsible for causing terrible suffering in Palestine with their wars with the Arabs, may G-d have mercy.
COMMENT: I am a Zionist, therefore you are calling me wicked. Furthermore, you are calling my ancestors wicked. You don't even attempt to say what you would feel are "Zionist extremists" (where I would still have issue, but it would be less. Instead it's just Zionists. All Zionists--meaning almost all Jews that live in Israel. And you can't understand the problem? I believe that Israel has a right to exist as the eternal home of the Hebrew people, within secure and ANCIENT borders, established by the Torah itself, and this brings me to your next point:
At that time in 1929, the Zionists had a slogan arguing that the Western Wall in Jerusalem was a Jewish ???national symbol.??? Of course, the Arabs disagreed with this idea, considering that they had control of the location for over 1,100 years. However, the Zionist mobs were yelling that ???The Wall is ours!??? It???s hard to understand why they felt that way considering they have no connection to the Jewish holy places whatsoever.
COMMENT:
Jews have NO RIGHT to Jewish holy places? Really, did I read that right? The last part of Herod's Temple, built by Jews, for Jews, do not belong to Jews? But Palestinians there in 1929 do have all the rights to it? I see. Again, Torah begs to differ. It does not matter how long the Arabs had control--the Jews were given ETERNAL CONTROL, if you take the Bible seriously that is. If the Arabs want peace, let them live with us, but they cannot and will not replace us. Well let's go on then:
An argument erupted in the Jewish newspapers about establishing a permanent prayer area for Jews at the Wall. This provoked the Arabs, and the rabbi of Jerusalem at the time, Rabbi Yosef Chaim Zonnenfeld begged them to stop and to be appreciative to the Arabs for allowing Jews to pray at the Wall for so many centuries undisturbed. However, the Zionists wanted a permanent setup under their control.
AGR:
And who attacked Israel the moment it was re-established, the rabbis? I think not. We were exiled since 70 CE, and you cannot fathom that after all that time we would want to be in control of our own holy places built by our ancestors? What if we wanted to go to Mecca and take over your mosques just because we lived in Saudi Arabia for a long time, but not as long as your people did? How would you feel?
To your other point, it may be that some rabbis were trepidatious about full transfer of control too quickly. I can respect that to a degree. But you seem to think that only a few Jews wanted their rights restored to their own sanctuaries, and this is not true.
It was in Muslim Spain that the Rambam composed "Guide for the Perplexed"
AGR:
Not contested. I never said there were never periods of peacful co-existence. I had a problem with the fact that all Zionists are wicked in your view. Is this clear yet?
My point is that Muslims, who actually adhere by the Qu'ran and the lifestyle of the Prophet, do not go around killing Jews and Christians. I cannot make my point clearer.
AGR:
Let me see if I can find some verses that say otherwise. I had them some time back. I seem to recall one that went "If you see a Jew, kill him." As for his "lifestyle", your prophet was at war frequently and killed many Jews and Christians with his own sword. And I know what Jihad is, okay?
Secondly, I have not forgotten about the kindness you've shown me throughout the years.[/quote]
AGR:
Glad to know that Akhi (notice I still call you Akhi). However, if you respect me, consider my feelings about your DEFINITIONS. To deny my people the right to exist in their native land (I do not deny Palestinians the right to be in Israel) that is RACISM--even Martin Lut her King Jr. said that, and I will find the quote if I have to during Black History Month no less. And, given your wonderful heritage, I would think you could relate to a small tribal group forced from their land, hated and massacred by the world and even denied when they return to their land by a greater power.
A Zionist is no more wicked than anyone else who wants to defend their home.
Understand now?
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
Andrew Gabriel Roth