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1st Corinthians 14:11 "barbarian"
#1
November 8, 2004

A Greek teacher says that the word "barbarian" in 1st Corinthians 14:11 shows that it was written by a Greek speaker. She claims that to the ethnocentric Greeks those who did not speak Greek sounded like they were saying, "bar bar bar bar..." Hence the Greek word barbaros- a negative word to those who do not speak Greek. An Aramaic writer would not use this word.

Analysis please.....

Otto
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#2
ograabe Wrote:November 8, 2004

A Greek teacher says that the word "barbarian" in 1st Corinthians 14:11 shows that it was written by a Greek speaker. She claims that to the ethnocentric Greeks those who did not speak Greek sounded like they were saying, "bar bar bar bar..." Hence the Greek word barbaros- a negative word to those who do not speak Greek. An Aramaic writer would not use this word.

Analysis please.....

Otto

Shlama Akhi Otto,

That's a humorous analysis seeing that the very word "Barbarian" itself is Aramaic. The Greek word derives not from "bar bar bar bar", as nobody went around speaking like that.

The Aramaic word from which the Greek is derived is "bar-barea", which means "son of the wilderness/desert." This is denote those people who wandered about in tents (like Arabs) and did not dwell in the cities like those of Mesopotamia (Babylon, Nineveh, etc.)

The Peshitta in 1Cor. 14:11 contains the original Aramaic word "son of the wilderness", not the Greek copy.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#3
Shlama Otto,


The word "Barbarian" traces back to Aramaic and Hebrew.
The Hebrew "Bar" -rvb and plural "Barim" myrvb , means "brutish,stupid, beastlike". The Aramaic "Barbaria" - [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0yrbrb[/font] comes from Aramaic "Bar" ("Son") and "Baria" ("Foreigner"), and so means literally "Son of a foreigner" .

The Greek most likely borrowed this from Aramaic. "Bar bar" is not an etymological root word for the Greek. It sounds like guesswork . How many languages sound like "Bar bar bar bar" ? It would not apply to most.
The LXX uses "barbaros" to translate the Hebrew "Barim" I mentioned above, several times. The OT Peshitta uses "Beiria" - [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0yry9B[/font] in a few places to translate the same Hebrew word.
"Beiria" means "beastlike".
The Greek sounds too much like the Hebrew and Aramaic to be uniquely Greek. The Hebrew and Aramaic have a more basic root meaning than the Greek. The Greek has only an application- no Greek etymology per se to show it is original. Strong's says it is "of uncertain derivation".
I seriously doubt both Hebrew and Aramaic borrowed the word from Greek. It is far more likely the Greeks borrowed from the older Aramaic or Hebrew here.

Blessings,

Dave B
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#4
THANKS FOR THE INFORMATIVE RESPONSES!

Sincerely,

Otto
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#5
Shlama Otto & Paul,

I was unaware Paul had responded when I finally posted my response. I took a while before finally posting and he had not posted his when I first read your inquiry.

Actually, we agree fairly well, given the independent nature of our responses. "Baria" can mean "that which is outside" or "that which is foreign".

Shlama w'burktha,

Dave
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#6
Shlama Akhay,

This just brought back vivid memories of my childhood. My Mom (God rest her soul) used to make the best dandelion salad. (yes, Dandelion...as in the weed, it's delicious.)

We would walk us to the nearest forest preserve to help her pick dandelions and we would run around the meadows chasing rabbits, etc. That's my earliest memory of this word, "bareya." (she would tell us "Qom, azakh lan l'Bareya" - "Get up, let us go to the wilderness".)
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#7
Paul Younan Wrote:Shlama Akhay,

This just brought back vivid memories of my childhood. My Mom (God rest her soul) used to make the best dandelion salad. (yes, Dandelion...as in the weed, it's delicious.)

We would walk us to the nearest forest preserve to help her pick dandelions and we would run around the meadows chasing rabbits, etc. That's my earliest memory of this word, "bareya." (she would tell us "Qom, azakh lan l'Bareya" - "Get up, let us go to the wilderness".)
Do you have a recipie?
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#8
metal1633 Wrote:Do you have a recipie?

Yes, very simple:

2 cups fresh dandelion leaves
1 tbsp. extra virgin olive oil
5 tsp. lemon juice (helps mellow the hint of bitterness of some dandelion leaves)
1/4 cup sliced green onions
2 hard-boiled eggs, sliced or diced

In a bowl, combine all ingredients and toss.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#9
Barbarian salad .

Dave
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#10
I PASSED YOUR COMMENTS ON AND HERE IS THE GREEK TEACHER'S REPLY:

The Greek word ???barbaros??? is very old. Herodotus used it 2400 years ago. It meant back then a ???foreigner??? or ???non-Greek speaker.??? According to EVERY dictionary I looked at the word barbarian is of Greek origin. That is point number one.

Secondly, ???How many languages sound like "Bar bar bar bar"? The Aramaic language was very widespread in those days, and to my understanding even the Assyrian, Babylonian and Persian empires used the language to a certain degree, and was used abundantly from 700-350 B.C. The sound ???bar, bar, bar??? certainly does apply to Aramaic. Aramaic uses the word ???bar??? as a prefix to many words. You should know more than me that the Aramaic language uses the word ???bar??? in front of the names of many people. In front of peoples names would often include ???bar,??? or ???son of,??? as you wrote me. A Greek listening to these foreigners speaking would likely hear the word ???bar??? very often. It certainly does apply to Aramaic.

COMMENTS PLEASE.
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#11
Shlama Akhi Otto,

You have ignored the Hebrew root "Bar", meaning "Brutish, stupid, barbarous"-(Strong's Concordance). The root goes back to 1500 B.C. , being used in Exodus , Numbers and Deuteronomy. There it means "burning", "consuming".
It is used in the sense of "brutish,barbarous" in Psalms 49:11,73:22,94:8 & Proverbs 12:1,30:2.
These are all much earlier than Herodotus.
The LXX translated "Barim" (plural)myrvb as "barbaros" in Ezekiel 21:36.
Brown,Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon gives the definition of this word in that place as "inhuman, cruel, barbarous men". Ezekiel lived long before Herodotus.
The Aramaic "Barbaria" is what Paul and I have said it is. It is the combination of two Aramaic roots - "Bar" & "Baria"-
"Son of the wilderness" or "Son of the foreigner". These Aramaic roots really mean these things for as far back as there were Aramaic roots. How is it that "Barbaria" , which sounds more like "Barbarian" than the Greek word , "Barbaros", means "nomad", or "foreigner", etymylogically, while the Greek word cannot be traced back as far as the Hebrew-Aramaic and has no Greek etymology of Greek roots to support it.
Indeed, your teacher's explanation (and that of the English dictionaries) implies that Aramaic is the source for the transliterated Greek word "Bar-baros".
Why not simply admit that Aramaic is the source and that the Aramaic "Barbaria" is the precise word source merely transliterated with Greek letters into "Barbaros".

The word "Barbaros" is not a Greek word, by the admission of the Lexicographers. It is "Bar bar bar", which
your teacher admits is Aramaic !
So is "Bar Baria" and it means what its roots mean when combined.
You will notice , if you read the dictionaries carefully, that "Barbaros" did not initially have the negative connotation that was associated with it later on. It simply meant "foreigner".So it was not invented as a mockery of Aramaeans and their speech.

The English and Greek dictionaries are wrong. That is to be expected of the Western culture, which has ignored its Eastern roots. The western alphabets and numeral system came from the East. The Greeks and Romans adapted and embellished, but there is no mistaking the connection between the Greek Alpha ,Beta,Gamma,Delta and The Hebrew & Aramaic Alep , Bet ,Gimel(Gamal),Dalet.Etc.
The Semitic came first; then the Greek.


Blessings,


Dave
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#12
Thanks, Dave. Your explanation is very clear. I will pass it on...

Otto
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