03-27-2014, 02:34 AM
Jerry-
1. You state:
"I do not wish to debate what appears to be your strong opinion on the matter."
I'm not debating anybody today. My back is hurting way too much. Please feel free to disagree with anything I Post. It's OK and it doesn't matter if my opinion is "strong" or not. For the record, you are quite correct in your view of what I have said: "As I see it, you come to a thoughtful conclusion as to what the proper context is, and then somewhat fashion the word (in this case Sh:B:Q) to fit that context.
I hope it is thoughtful, maybe even correct. A N Whitehead stated:
"Language is thoroughly indeterminate, by reason of the fact that every occurrence presupposes some systematic type of environment."
2. With this idea, I hope you see that I cannot say you are "Wrong!" here. Your analysis may be entirely correct in "Thou relinquish/dismiss/release me?" Jesus cannot under any circumstances repudiate God. How then does he face this Death? The Temple Priests in a previous era at one time faced Death while performing their sacrifices and they continued them, even as they were being murdered at the Altar. How does this happen?
3. Let me give one more example of what it is that I'm trying to accomplish here. Recently, I found one of those "Markers" that strikes me at times and makes me look to see if I can "Find Context":
Mark 9: 42 (RSV):
[42] "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.
The visual here is most remarkable. You can almost see someone with "the-millstone-of-a-donkey" being thrown into the sea. But wait! Did anyone ever throw a giant millstone in the sea? Yes! Herod did and see my Post on this one.
"One thing leads to another...": What then of Matthew's Story, "The Narrow Gate"? Isn't that just a rewrite of Luke's "The Narrow Door"? No, it's not. I believe it's a Deeper Version of "The Millstone of a Donkey". Greglasser, Poster Extraordinaire on this site, even had a small note about a word "Mublai", found in the passage of Matthew 7, which might have the notion of "Cargo" attached to it. When this happens, I usually stop for awhile. WOW!
BUT!: "If Matthew had Mark in front of him while writing his Book, how do you explain this?":
Matthew 18: 6 (RSV):
[6] but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Ooops! So Matthew had Mark open in front of him AND had another version of the Herod Story of the Narrow Gate and wrote both of them into his book? If he did, did he know that these 2 passages were referring to the same Story? The issue is complicated by Matthew writing that Jesus entered Jerusalem riding an ass and a horse so..."Gee, I dunno...What do the words tell us?" :-)
4. I DO feel strongly about a lot of this material and the strength of this belief is made apparent to me by what I find on this site. Arguments by the GP'ers can be so naive sometimes! It is so much deeper than it appears!
5. Let me then, close with a better introduction to my Post above.
"Papias", an early Church Father, supposedly someone who knew, wrote that Mark remembered everything but wrote the Stories sorta', kinda', outa' order like. OK, discount the metaphysics, what is he saying? There may be Stories that are recalling scenes that appear as separate scenes now but might have actually been scenes that tell of the same event. If even remotely true, even in an elliptical sense, can this "Other Order", "Original Order, "___________ Order" be reconstructed?
I followed a Path for almost a decade now and have seen a Thread to a different Ordering of the Stories.
So: Assume that the "Narrow Door" and "Turn as a Child" are telling you about the same event (Again, You don't HAVE to assume anything. I may feel strongly about this, but so what?...). What happens? "Well, Charlie starts trolling around and finds some Aramaic Sites and sees, "...for this was I spared?"
WOW!
I stopped and contemplated this one for a LOOOOONG time! Does that make me "Right"? No. It certainly leads me to believe that I'm seeing something that's actually there. A translation, a sense of meaning, is proposed by Honest People who had no idea that this meaning that I give it might adhere. Does this make it correct? In all of this, I hope that the argument is about what is "True" and not "What some guy with a bad back and some background in Logic thought was true."
The Path that I see goes back to 1 Chronicles 24 and the "House of Eleazar", through Jannaeus and Salome and through the Mishmarot Group "Immer". To date, this leads me to a small settlement named "Jabnit", although I begin to see a next step, from a man named "Eleazar", who lives in Upper Galilee and travels, not to Jerusalem but in some "other direction". He converts one King Izates. "What language did Izates speak?" I dunno. It might be important, though. Maybe as important as "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel..."
"Sheep"? "Israel"? "Where are these people?" And on and on.
You're not wrong. I hope you find peace with your search.
CW
1. You state:
"I do not wish to debate what appears to be your strong opinion on the matter."
I'm not debating anybody today. My back is hurting way too much. Please feel free to disagree with anything I Post. It's OK and it doesn't matter if my opinion is "strong" or not. For the record, you are quite correct in your view of what I have said: "As I see it, you come to a thoughtful conclusion as to what the proper context is, and then somewhat fashion the word (in this case Sh:B:Q) to fit that context.
I hope it is thoughtful, maybe even correct. A N Whitehead stated:
"Language is thoroughly indeterminate, by reason of the fact that every occurrence presupposes some systematic type of environment."
2. With this idea, I hope you see that I cannot say you are "Wrong!" here. Your analysis may be entirely correct in "Thou relinquish/dismiss/release me?" Jesus cannot under any circumstances repudiate God. How then does he face this Death? The Temple Priests in a previous era at one time faced Death while performing their sacrifices and they continued them, even as they were being murdered at the Altar. How does this happen?
3. Let me give one more example of what it is that I'm trying to accomplish here. Recently, I found one of those "Markers" that strikes me at times and makes me look to see if I can "Find Context":
Mark 9: 42 (RSV):
[42] "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.
The visual here is most remarkable. You can almost see someone with "the-millstone-of-a-donkey" being thrown into the sea. But wait! Did anyone ever throw a giant millstone in the sea? Yes! Herod did and see my Post on this one.
"One thing leads to another...": What then of Matthew's Story, "The Narrow Gate"? Isn't that just a rewrite of Luke's "The Narrow Door"? No, it's not. I believe it's a Deeper Version of "The Millstone of a Donkey". Greglasser, Poster Extraordinaire on this site, even had a small note about a word "Mublai", found in the passage of Matthew 7, which might have the notion of "Cargo" attached to it. When this happens, I usually stop for awhile. WOW!
BUT!: "If Matthew had Mark in front of him while writing his Book, how do you explain this?":
Matthew 18: 6 (RSV):
[6] but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Ooops! So Matthew had Mark open in front of him AND had another version of the Herod Story of the Narrow Gate and wrote both of them into his book? If he did, did he know that these 2 passages were referring to the same Story? The issue is complicated by Matthew writing that Jesus entered Jerusalem riding an ass and a horse so..."Gee, I dunno...What do the words tell us?" :-)
4. I DO feel strongly about a lot of this material and the strength of this belief is made apparent to me by what I find on this site. Arguments by the GP'ers can be so naive sometimes! It is so much deeper than it appears!
5. Let me then, close with a better introduction to my Post above.
"Papias", an early Church Father, supposedly someone who knew, wrote that Mark remembered everything but wrote the Stories sorta', kinda', outa' order like. OK, discount the metaphysics, what is he saying? There may be Stories that are recalling scenes that appear as separate scenes now but might have actually been scenes that tell of the same event. If even remotely true, even in an elliptical sense, can this "Other Order", "Original Order, "___________ Order" be reconstructed?
I followed a Path for almost a decade now and have seen a Thread to a different Ordering of the Stories.
So: Assume that the "Narrow Door" and "Turn as a Child" are telling you about the same event (Again, You don't HAVE to assume anything. I may feel strongly about this, but so what?...). What happens? "Well, Charlie starts trolling around and finds some Aramaic Sites and sees, "...for this was I spared?"
WOW!
I stopped and contemplated this one for a LOOOOONG time! Does that make me "Right"? No. It certainly leads me to believe that I'm seeing something that's actually there. A translation, a sense of meaning, is proposed by Honest People who had no idea that this meaning that I give it might adhere. Does this make it correct? In all of this, I hope that the argument is about what is "True" and not "What some guy with a bad back and some background in Logic thought was true."
The Path that I see goes back to 1 Chronicles 24 and the "House of Eleazar", through Jannaeus and Salome and through the Mishmarot Group "Immer". To date, this leads me to a small settlement named "Jabnit", although I begin to see a next step, from a man named "Eleazar", who lives in Upper Galilee and travels, not to Jerusalem but in some "other direction". He converts one King Izates. "What language did Izates speak?" I dunno. It might be important, though. Maybe as important as "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel..."
"Sheep"? "Israel"? "Where are these people?" And on and on.
You're not wrong. I hope you find peace with your search.
CW